The future of loco kit building

[Michael Delamar]

I think you need to be clearer whether the means or the end is more important to you, i.e. would you get more enjoyment from building a loco or having one to run on a layout.

 

for me its the end, I did say earlier I dont get much enjoyment from building, on reflection thats not true, I do enjoy building.

however recentley ive built some kits for other people and even though I think ive made better jobs of them than if they where my own I didnt get much enjoyment because I had to work quick and the main thing is that I wouldnt be keeping them.

i got a couple of beer vouchers and it was yet more experience which I need but deep down I dont think Id like to do it all the time.

 

the most enjoyment I get is the end stages and then playing with them on the layout and admiring them.

[Horsetan]

But how long does it last before you need another fix?

 

Thing with kitbuilding is that you tend to end up with bags under the eyes. It has been said - in the fashion world, no less - that the only downside of having bags under the eyes is that you then need footwear to match...

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Evenin' all,

 

I prefer the stock and layout to have a range of origins because the end result is then more individual, I'll never have the time to kitbuild everything but my layout would be a poorer place without kit built items.

 

Dave

[Ravenser]

I think you need to be clearer whether the means or the end is more important to you, i.e. would you get more enjoyment from building a loco or having one to run on a layout.

 

The bit I enjoy most is admiring the finished model . I want to build a model railway , rather than simply building loco kits . However I get a great deal more satisfaction from admiring a finished model I've made, which is hopefully a bit better than RTR and slightly individual, than from contemplating something straight out of the box from a mail order discount retailer.

 

Quite apart from anything else, when RTR comes straight out of the box it needs weathering , couplings, DCC installation as a minimum . In quite a few cases, a RTR model straight out of the box is as much the start of a future project as is a box with a kit in it (For example as soon as Phoenix rerun the old MTK class 156 underframe castings, I will need to rework my Hornby 156 model - which also means installing lights, replacement couplings interior painting, weathering, sorting out decent corridor connectors etc)

[Clive Mortimore]

I think you need to be clearer whether the means or the end is more important to you, i.e. would you get more enjoyment from building a loco or having one to run on a layout.

 

A very good question. My answer is both depending on what mood I am in. Sometimes both on the same day. Other days niether, I would rather be doing something else than model railways. Generally it is the buliding I like, but not kits. I find scratchbuilding far more fun and less of a challenge. But I am not your average railway modeller, I am me.

[Clive Mortimore]

Quite apart from anything else, when RTR comes straight out of the box it needs weathering , couplings, DCC installation as a minimum .

 

Oh dear, I seem to have got the RTR thing wrong. If I am not converting the model, because the one in the box will do what I want it to do, all I ever do is remove the lights. I model British Railways not 93 Searchlight Regiment Royal Artillery.

 

But I am not your average railway modeller, I am me.

[N15class]

Thing with kitbuilding is that you tend to end up with bags under the eyes. It has been said - in the fashion world, no less - that the only downside of having bags under the eyes is that you then need footwear to match...

 

B*****er All I do at the moment is kit build, now I got to change my flipflops.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I think, with respect, that as a skilled and experienced advanced kitbuilder you're automatically taking it for granted that loco kits will be soldered - because you can build them that way speedily and efficiently

 

Moi, skilled, experienced and advanced? Ah, little do you know that I am a slow and (in terms of time) an inefficient builder. Not for me the Metropolitan 100 meters dash, more like the slow crawl. However, I do admit that it's the bit of model making I enjoy most.

 

From my perspective soldering is slow , laborious , and potentially problematic, though I can solder. Practice makes perfect, but given a choice between soldering and getting a quick win with plastic and solvent , the plastic kit will always tend to take priority in the queue.

 

By contrast, I find glues difficult to get on with, plastic kits excepted where you are welding them together with a solvent.

 

A lot of the old kits people like Metropolitan and hayfield report buying off ebay seem to have been glued together. Soldering was an optional extra in kitbuilding- in a way it isn't now.

 

And often have to be taken apart and reassembled to produce a better result. Perhaps that indicates that gluing isn't always easier for a beginner.

 

I do however have an almost complete, ex ebay, PC Models LNWR horsebox that was assembled unly with glue (superglue by the looks of it). It's difficult to see any difference from a soldered up one I bought at the same time.

 

I recognise that the modern etched chassis is far better for the experienced modeller. But whatever the inadequecies of jig drilled lumps of whitemetal and large pieced of milled brass , in theory assembly was simple - just add axles, wheels, gears and motor (In practice it may have run badly, but the assembly process was simple).

 

But the problem was, if they ran badly it was difficult to fix them. What better to put you off kit building. At least with etched chassis you can more easily set them up to run well.

 

As you point out, that's where Bodyline kits came in. SEF still list fifteen, but GEM now only have one (there may be others). Perhaps that is in part because the original RTR chassis are no longer available and they don't see sufficient demand or produce new ones or update the old.

 

I agree that one piece resin bodies , and even more the advent of 3D printing, changes the game radically,. This is the obvious route to go for the bodyline kit - but unlike the old whitemetal kits, it doesn't lead up into the full blown kit. A Silver Fox resin body does not lead into a Judith Edge or LRM full etched brass kit in the way a Wills body kit led on into a full whitemetal kit . The natural progression isn't there.

 

Doesn't a cast resin kit, if there is sufficent assembly in it, at least get you into making something? You would have to glue it, just as you would a cast w/m kit.

 

There's also the issue that the "loco kit market" is no longer 100% steam locos. A significant chunk is now represented by multiple units and even electric locos , which are very different propositions: DMUS and EMUs are in many respects a branch of coachbuilding rather than loco kits in the traditional sense. Judith Edge do some very nice etched kits for the ex NER EB1 and EF1 electrics - they take Black Beetles

 

 

Good points. early diesel kits were, AFAIK, also afflicted by a lack of decent running gear, now much improved with some of the latest products. Has the quality of the early diesel kis, and the wide range of RTR diesels and upgrade items now effectively decimated that market.

 

With steam however, there are still many gaps, as the seasonal wish lists elsewhere on RM Web indicates.

 

 

I do not regard myself as other than an average model maker. Which is why, if I can get my head around building kits, I honestly believe that if someone has the will to do it, then they can. I now only build etched loco kits (although my models do include a couple of w/m ones), because I find them more pleasurable to build.

 

Compared to when I restarted my model railway pastime, some 28 years ago, things have moved on considerably. Not only do we now have very fine RTR models at what are really ludicrously low prices compared to other consumer goods, but also model making materials and processes are greatly improved and understood, while the "knowledge" is readily shared and accessible through clubs, societies, modelling weekends and workshops, books, dvds, RMweb and other forums.

 

Is there a better time to be a kit builder?

 

Jol

[Torper]

As others have said, there are numerus aspects to our hobby. There's operating, there's building, there's modifying, there's painting, there's scenics, and so on. If you're working on your own, it's difficult to achieve all of these within a reasonable time and compromose has to be made.

 

I (attempt to) model in P4. That makes it even harder, and not so long ago everything had to be built. That's OK in a way - I like building loco kits, but they take me a long time and so there's precious little time left for all the other aspects - I really would like to get a layout up and running. And in recent years that's become much more feasible thanks largely to the advent of the fantastic quality of the RTR models currently being produced.

 

So now I can get the best of both worlds. People say P4 is difficult and if you're modelling a steam-era layout it certainly can be. But modern RTR diesels can often be easily converted. I bought a Bachmann Class 24 and a Gibson wheel conversion set, and it took me half an hour to produce the best running loco I have. That applies to numerous other RTR diesels and no doubt multiple units. RTR rolling stock need pose few problems in P4 - short wheel base wagons usually only need replacement drop-in wheelsets and a bit of extra weight, and coaches either accept straightforward drop in wheelsets or a little bit of tedious but simple modification is required to the bogies. A bit of weathering is required, but otherwise no need to paint them. And there we have the basis for a running layout, all produced in the time it would take me to build an etched-kit tender. So I can play trains.

 

But I also like building kits, and so when i don't want to play trains I can get the workbench out and get on with one of the several steam outline kits I'm currently working on. For me, that's as integral a part of the hobby as anything else and, as others have said, building a decent running kit gives enormous satisfaction. Ditto with the part-built pre-grouping coaches that are also languishing somewhere under my workbench waiting for me to pluck up the courage to paint them. So as far as I'm concerned, there's plenty of room for both RTR and kits, and you don't have to go down one road only - you can happily take advantage of both and long may that continue.

 

DT

[mikemeg]

Is there a better time to be a kit builder?

 

Jol

 

Absolutely, there's never been a better time to build kits; there are more available now than ever. And there are more add on/ replacement components available than ever. It's halcyon days, guys, for kit building but only if that's what you want to do. And it is still possible to find those entry level kits, though perhaps a little more difficult, to get started and to begin to 'learn the ropes'.

 

Equally the standard of r-t-r locomotive models has never been as good as it is now. I enjoy building kits and even scratch building, and have for some time, but I've got to concede that I'd be hard pressed to match the quality of detail and finish of the best of the r-t-r models. So, having recognised and conceded that, then there are now kits available to allow us EM and P4 modellers to take advantage of that r-t-r quality, yet still to produce something which, if not unique, is certainly 'individual' and to derive the pleasure from doing that. And those same kits allow the '00' modellers to add even more detail to r-t-r models, to individualise them to whatever level they feel they want. Thinly veiled 'trailer' for an r-t-r P4 conversion thread, elsewhere in this topic area?

 

I think there is at least a concensus on that - or I would hope so.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Metropolitan]

I agree that one piece resin bodies , and even more the advent of 3D printing, changes the game radically,. This is the obvious route to go for the bodyline kit - but unlike the old whitemetal kits, it doesn't lead up into the full blown kit. A Silver Fox resin body does not lead into a Judith Edge or LRM full etched brass kit in the way a Wills body kit led on into a full whitemetal kit . The natural progression isn't there

 

 

I do not like resin bodies at all, at all! They are the very devil to fit things to and are so easily damaged that you dare not actually use the loco!! The stuff is just too soft to be of any practical use unless you confine the model to a showcase. One nasty derailment and you've got hours of work to repair the damage if indeed you can! Maybe OK for wagons but not great big heavy loco's.

 

Injection moulded plastic parts such as the brake gear and injectors etc - yes please, But give me a nicely cast whitemetal boiler over a resin offering anytime.

[Ravenser]

Oh dear, I seem to have got the RTR thing wrong. If I am not converting the model, because the one in the box will do what I want it to do, all I ever do is remove the lights. I model British Railways not 93 Searchlight Regiment Royal Artillery.

 

Fair enough , for anything Modernisation Plan. I fully agree that the arc-light LED's are way over the top for the dull yellow glow of a 70s light bulb and if I could turn the lights down on the Hornby 31 any further I would. When I rework the spare body for the Airfix 31 , lights will not be fitted, and when they get built the Cravens and Derby Heavyweight will not have lights. (And there's no justification whatsoever for lighting on steam)

 

However second and third generation DMUs and EMUs do come with searchlights on the real thing, and so leaving off lighting is a step down in realism , especially when other similar units on the layout have them. They are also an operational convenience on a DCC layout - the headlights tell the operator which way the unit will move. As far as I am concerned, anything built after 1980 should ideally have working lighting . Anything built before 1980 shouldn't

 

If you were building a 360 a working headlight would be a desireable feature. On a Baby Deltic or a class 20 it isn't

[James]

I do not like resin bodies at all, at all! They are the very devil to fit things to and are so easily damaged that you dare not actually use the loco!!

 

I suspect it's another example of not using materials in the best way - there's nothing wrong with resin parts but the way it's been used has in some cases left a lot to be desired.

[James]

From my perspective soldering is slow , laborious , and potentially problematic, though I can solder. Practice makes perfect, but given a choice between soldering and getting a quick win with plastic and solvent , the plastic kit will always tend to take priority in the queue

 

Soldering is often easier than gluing as it's instant. It's all about learning techniques. Plenty of people, for example, will run a seam of solder instead of a small tack joint before checking it's position and then finally soldering it fully. A mistake here and the part not quite in the right place and soldering's branded difficult.

 

One problem seems to be that many people can't accept that their first efforts might not be perfect - there's an expectation in some parts that the kit should be such that you will be able to produce something amazing first time. But like many other things in life, it needs practice.

[Ravenser]

LNWR Modeller

I do not regard myself as other than an average model maker. Which is why, if I can get my head around building kits, I honestly believe that if someone has the will to do it, then they can. I now only build etched loco kits (although my models do include a couple of w/m ones), because I find them more pleasurable to build.

 

I think you're underestimating yourself. The trouble is that it's a bit like an iceberg: we only see the top 10% and forget about the submerged 90% . Anyone who's successfully built a loco kit with chassis is automatically in the top 20% of the hobby . Anyone who designs kits is automatically in the top 5%.... I have a strong suspicion that the old whitemetal locos being picked up from ebay in fact represent the average build of a whitemetal kit in the 1970s and 1980s, by the average kitbuilder. At the time we only ever saw the kits built by the top echelon of builders - the people who were good enough to be asked to write it up as a 3 page article, or good enough modellers to have their layout feature in a mag. These would be the people with a natural aptitude for kits who rapidly moved on to soldered construction and chassis building, and set about reworking what wasn't adequete

 

Given that the regular estimate at the time was that only 10% of loco kits were ever built (I suspect the percentage actually rose quite a bit with the passage of time) kits that someone actually finished and which ran at all already represent a well above average effort....

 

I don't doubt for a moment that soldered construction is faster and better for anyone who has mastered it, and I certainly intend to try low-melt soldering of the big castings next time I build a whitemetal kit. My point would rather be that gluing is a much more readily attainable method of assembly for a novice than solder. Hence he could build the kit after a reasonable fashion. The move from an imperfectly built glued whitemetal kit to a much better built soldered job is a very much easier step to take than from nothing at all to a soldered fully working etched chassis. And - though I've never built such a kit myself - I believe that in the days of jig drilled whitemetal and milled brass bars you could in practice assemble a chassis more or less without soldering?

 

Doesn't a cast resin kit, if there is sufficent assembly in it, at least get you into making something? You would have to glue it, just as you would a cast w/m kit.

 

From personal experience, doing a couple of Silver Fox shunters is zero help when faced with a Branchlines chassis etch . It gets you into making things , but it doesn't give you any skills that transfer across to an etched kit. Possibly practice in fitting handrails will be relevant when I finally get that far with assembling the plastic body on the Drewery, but that seems very remore at the moment

 

I've always been very surprised that Silver Fox's bodies didn't sell like hotcakes and we didn't see them on lots of layouts . Unfortunately Heljan and others have largely wiped out their market niche in the prototypes and exotic early classes - Baby Deltics, Co-Bos , early Warships and the like were all prominent features of the range, and I think they still do the Bulleid 1-Co-Co-1s

 

early diesel kits were, AFAIK, also afflicted by a lack of decent running gear, now much improved with some of the latest products. Has the quality of the early diesel kis, and the wide range of RTR diesels and upgrade items now effectively decimated that market

 

I agree that MTK probably poisoned the wells for D+E kitbuilding , because the range was so large and so unbuildable . There were no gaps left for makers of decent kits. The quality of whitemetal castings for D+E kits in general seems to have been utterly appalling. I've built BEC and Nu-Cast stuff - neither, I think, would be seen as top notch castings by steam modellers, and the NuCast Sentinel required an awful lot of fettling to make the corners seemless and the roof fit - araldite as filler was gratefully resorted to, but I got a good result in the end. But those castings were superb beside the crude horrors in an A1 Models Baby Deltic kit I was mug enough to buy secondhand . I eventually concluded no amount of fettling would ever allow them to be assembled without big gaps that would have to be bodged full with lowmelt solder, araldite or milliput, and I disposed of the kit.

 

I remember Alastair Rolfe gently but firmly dissuading me from a W+M body kit , ex MTK , which he had reintroduced, at DEMU Showcase one year. Even he had had to resort to soldering thin nickel silver strip over the gap between the side castings and the roof casting - and I'm sure his casting process was infinitely better than Colin Massingham's had been. You were on your own for the underframe and mechanism. The underframe castings I bought from him for the 150 on that occasion were a bit agricultural and representational and needed a lot of cleaning up, but they do a job. (Unlike Mr Bratchill, MTK provided an engine, radiator and fuel tank).

 

What the stuff Alastair didn't reintroduce was like, in the days when Colin Massingham was inflicting it on a long suffering hobby, doesn't bear thinking about.

 

 

Mechanisms in D+E have generally been a big problem. I've heard of Q Kits where the "Chassis" was a piece of square stick to join two dodgy sets of whitemetal castings . I've seen a Kestrel kit of theirs very recently - resin body with two bags of castings for motor bogies, and press-studs to fix inside thebodyshell. I think I'd look out for a second hand Lima 47 for about £20 and butcher the chassis moulding to fit the kit. Even more recent efforts have been doubtful . Someone in the club built one of Charlie Petty's original resin 144s , with the motorisation supplied . It was tried on the layout , and was basically a non-runner, with minimal traction and maximum wheelslip. It retired hurt, with mutterings about Branchline chassis, and has never been seen again

 

Black Beetles and the butchered insides of Bachmann 24s and 25s seem to be the staple diet of modern image modellers when it comes to mechanisms. The debt we owe to Hollywood Foundry can't be overestimated

[James]

My point would rather be that gluing is a much more readily attainable method of assembly for a novice than solder.

 

At the start it is, but with the right tools and a spot of practice, it's perfectly attainable. With regards whitemetal I wonder how many novices have issues because they don't clean and degrease the metal sufficiently before gluing? Again, it's technique, tools and practice.

[Paul Cram]

Personally I hate glue. My first whitemetal kit I tried to use the (at that time) new superglue. I quickly discovered it was anything but super and had no strength. Araldite was then used on a number of kits but was messy and difficult to get a neat joint. I then purchased one of Danny Pinnoch's etched brake van kits and soldered it together and from there I have not looked back. I find soldering a much better and stronfer propostion to glue and in discussion with George Norton he said that as an engineer the saying was "screw where possible solder if need be but never ever glue". I tend to agree although there are occaisions when one has to resort to glue.

[Guest Tom F]

Soldering is often easier than gluing as it's instant. It's all about learning techniques. Plenty of people, for example, will run a seam of solder instead of a small tack joint before checking it's position and then finally soldering it fully. A mistake here and the part not quite in the right place and soldering's branded difficult.

 

One problem seems to be that many people can't accept that their first efforts might not be perfect - there's an expectation in some parts that the kit should be such that you will be able to produce something amazing first time. But like many other things in life, it needs practice.

 

I'm very much in agreement with the above statement.

 

I built my first etched chassis the other month, and found the whole thing rather enjoyable. If you glue something, if you do make a mistake you are going to have considerable trouble trying to take

the thing apart to correct.

 

At least with soldering, if the join isn't quite right, you can apply heat and try again and as has been mentioned by others, soldering produces a far stronger join.

 

Cheers

[burgundy]

Thanks to Oldlugger for starting this thread only 17 pages (and 11 days) ago. It has covered a lot of useful ground and I can relate to much of what has been written. Unless the R-T-R suppliers have an aberration, I suspect that anyone trying to model the L.B.& S.C.R. in Mr Stroudley's time is going to be in the scratch and kit building business - which is how Albion, EBM and 5&9 have such loyal customers! In my case, I have graduated from a K's Terrier, through Wills and Gem to the point where I have had to take the plunge into etched brass - and I reached the JFDI (*) moment a couple of years ago when I retired. There is so much that you can learn by reading, so much by talking to demonstrators at exhibitions and so much by soldering together wagons, but it still takes a bit of courage to launch into a loco kit that probably cost £100ish. My first attempt is documented here and I hope that it may encourage others to have a go. It is not perfect, the chassis is not as smooth running as I would like - but subsequent locos will, I hope, be better.

Several contributions have touched on some of the things that will help people to get over the initial hurdle. Courses, peer support (not least on-line, as in RMWeb), reading and listening will get you so far (and it would be well worth while promoting all those options), but in the end it is about really, really wanting to produce a model from the bag of bits sitting in front of you.

Best wishes

Eric

* JFDI - an acronym standing for Kindly Just Do It

[Michael Delamar]

there has to be some snobbery around exclusivity with regard kit build models.

 

the feeling that youve spent lots of time money and effort on a model and to have something exclusive and then for the RTR makers to come out with something which is every bit as good or better and that every man and his dog can have it cheaply running round his set track curves.

 

 

another point,.

I always look at a standard build kit, ie just with the bits out the box (if it isnt a top end kit) as the same as a top RTR model.

theyre both something like 90% ready but still need the final attention to detail adding to them.

[James]

I don't think that's snobbery - I like not being like everyone else. And I imagine it's rather disheartening if someone was to ask you about your 'detailed Bachmann dubdee' when it's a Bradwell model you've spent months on!

 

Much like the 'built not bought' slogan used on many car forums.

 

Edited to combat dyslexia.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

.....I've found inverse snobbery to be more common i.e. those people who build kits successfully just get on with it wherehas some of those who don't seem to need to explain why.

 

Dave

[John M]

I imagine it's rather disheartening if someone was to ask you able your 'detailed Bachmann dubdee' when it's a Bradwell model you've spent months on!

 

Much like the 'built not bought' slogan used on many car forums.

 

I actually took it as a compliment the first time I was asked if my kitbuilt West Country was the new Hornby model. Although I am mainly interested in Irish railways I went through a phase of building the more modern ex-LMS & BR steam classes for use on a friends EM layout, unfortunately an improved rtr version usually appeared within 6-12 months of completing the kit.

 

The most interesting reaction was about 10-15 years ago from a young child at an exhibition who was transfixed by an 8Fbuilt from a DJH kit that stood out against current rtr and older kits.

 

While his parents were initially shocked when we told them the cost and what was involved in building such a kit, hopefully the model inspired the boy to take up modelling.

 

The improvement in the quality and realism of rtr has probably prompted more people to enter the hobby who previously had little exposure to modelling and different expectations to the older modellers

 

While there appears to be a greater focus on collecting and perhaps less on modelling one of the more interesting spin offs of the rtr revolution at least for Irish modellers is the number of model shops and builders offering model building, painting and weathering services and a growing number of professional builders primarily undertaking batch production of locos rolling stock and structures.

 

There appears to have been a shift from the traditional branch terminus to fiddle yard of earlier years to well stocked main line layouts with a greater focus on operation, where scratch and kit building beomes more an means to an end than an end in itself.

[Michael Delamar]

And I imagine it's rather disheartening if someone was to ask you about your 'detailed Bachmann dubdee' when it's a Bradwell model you've spent months on!

 

 

it wouldnt bother me personally, but I have felt that sort of attitude from people without them actually saying it.

[Clive Mortimore]

I don't think that's snobbery - I like not being like everyone else. And I imagine it's rather disheartening if someone was to ask you about your 'detailed Bachmann dubdee' when it's a Bradwell model you've spent months on!

 

I had to laugh when a little kid pointed to a scratch built EE type 3 of mine and said "Look dad, he's got a Hornby 37 like yours".

 

Who cares what other people think, if you have detailed or converted a RTR model, built a kit or scratch built something just be pleased with your modelling. It is a hobby to most of us and we should be enjoying what we want out of the hobby. As long as there remains a group of modellers who want to build kits there will be kit manufacturers.