Bachmann Stanier mogul

[Unknown Warrior]

some parts will already exist for this model won't they? The tender's done, is the chassis much different to the Crab, the cab will be pretty standard is the boiler much different to a black 5 or 8f jubilee etc.

My guess is that Bacmhmann will start from scratch with the loco itself. I accept that they already have the tender. Bachmann do the Jubilee but the boiler barrel is longer and firebox slightly larger. The Jubillee Boiler was a Stanier 3A and the mogul 3D, similar but not the same.

 

It might be possible to modify the Crab chassis as the wheel base is the same. However the mogul is slightly longer so it might be easier to start from scratch. The cylinders are of course completely different. Driving wheels are the same size but to pony truck wheels on the Crab are larger.

 

My feeling is that Bachmann will opt to do the job properly and start from scratch. The days of getting way with the differences I have mentioned are passed!

[LMS2968]

The main differences between the Horwich and Stanier Crabs in the chassis are the height of the cylinders, but the valve gear is also rather different: the Horwich Crab used a much longer expansion link and the radius rod was lifted by a pendulum link in front of the expansion link; Stanier's version used an extension of the radius rod lifted by a two-forked arm behind the expansion link. The 2-6-0's boiler was one foot shorter than an 8F's and two feet shorter than a Black Five's, which will effect the taper of the cladding sheets. The cab is very different to any other Stanier type, being more like the Horwich Crab's except that the side sheets reached down to the same level as the bottom of the tender tank; and the roof vent was sliding rather than lifting. The tender (as built) was the Standard Fowler type with snap head rivets.

 

I sent Bachmann drawings of the engines in January this year. For some reason, they failed to arrive so were resent in March. Apart from our member's report stated above, I've heard nothing since.

[bike2steam]

The tender (as built) was the Standard Fowler type with snap head rivets.

But modellers, wanting to renumber, beware at least 2 examples of the class had 5 different tenders during their lifetime which varied between snap head, and flush riveted. Also the first 15 of the class were originally built with the 'Lobster Pot' boiler, giving rise to their nickname at some sheds (including Bescot), 'Camels' at others.

 

I recommend the Irwell Press book on the class.

Edited December 1, 2014 by bike2steam

[philbax]

Just for reference, Alan Gibson used to provide a kit for this Stanier 2-6-0

 

[LMS2968]

It was actually the first 20 (13245-64) which had the split taper boiler cladding, the last 20 had a continuous taper. All were fitted with continuous taper cladding by WW II except 2955, which retained the split taper to withdrawal. This is unfortunate for Bachmann as it's one of the models they plan. The first ten also had the safety valves in the top feed. Some boilers with this arrangement were not modified until BR days, by which time they could appear on any class member. Photos are your friend here. You also have round and square-topped cylinders, Philbax's model shows the latter. They were fitted to the first NINE (not ten as many believe) engines, 13245 - 53. All retained these except 2949, which got round top ones some time before WW II. Other differences were whistles: 2975-84 had Stanier hooters mounted horizontally, the first 30 had Midland type mounted vertically. Oh, and the last five had only one mechanical lubricator mounted on the fireman's side, all others had two. And no Stanier Crab had the smokebox door support bracket on the opposite side to the hinges, which were common to other Stanier classes.

 

Tenders came in a range of a possible SIX types: snap head rivets with coal rails and the edge beading to the side panels mounted on top of the panel was original. Other tenders might be counter-sunk riveted (these tenders were never welded construction), might not have  coal rails and might have the edge beading mounted on the side of the panel - or any combination of the above. Again, you need photos of the modelled engine at the chosen period, and even then the edge beading can be difficult to distinguish.

[farren]

Well I have a new book to buy. As I understand it they tended to work around the London area going by the little information I have on the class (BACKTRACK) but did any make it to the midlands Leicester? Still having a couple whatever. One of my favourite freight engines.

[bike2steam]

It was actually the first 20 (13245-64) which had the split taper boiler cladding,

Yep, yer right, that'll teach me fer not checking me facts.

[PenrithBeacon]

...

The 2-6-0's boiler was one foot shorter than an 8F's ...

IIRC the first ten 8Fs had a boiler which was identical to the Stanier mogul. After this the 8Fs firebox was extended to form a combustion chamber and the boiler barrel shortened to suit by shortening the parallel section. Might be wrong mind ...

 

Regards

Edited December 1, 2014 by PenrithBeacon

[bike2steam]

As I understand it they tended to work around the London area going by the little information I have on the class (BACKTRACK)

In the days when I visited Willesden shed regularly ( 1960-5), Bescot, and Nuneaton based examples turned up there with monotonous regularity. They were used on part fitted freights, both day and night, they were known for their ability to accelerate sharply when working between passenger trains on the busy WCML.

[LMS2968]

Yes, PenrithBeacon, perhaps I should have explained that better. The similarities between 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 boilers is a bit more complicated than stated. The first twelve 8Fs had the 2-6-0 firebox with vertical throatplate (as did the first Black Fives), but the boiler barrel was a foot longer. Later 8Fs had a sloping throatplate firebox, which intruded into the boiler length, shortening it by a foot, and making it the same as the 2-6-0s' (but with a dome).

 

The allocations varied a lot over the years, originally they were allocated to all four LMS divisions but by the 1950s they were concentrated around Birmingham (Aston, Bushbury, Monument Lane) and roughly the North West (Crewe [North and South], Mold Junction, later extending to Stoke, Heaton Mersey, Gorton, Nuneaton and Springs Branch, Wigan. They could turn up almost anywhere on excursions, North Wales coast, Southport, Blackpool, Lake District, Skegness and Scarborough. As said, Fast Fitted Goods was their forte and they worked all the WCML south of Crewe (they did work over Shap, but not often), the Midland over the S&C to Carlisle, also to Somers Town (London) and Bristol, over the Pennines and occasionally into South Wales. In the 1960s, they also penetrated the Fens country from Peterborough. They regularly penetrated ex-GWR and LNER lines, but I have only a single sighting (out of over 20,000!) on Southern territory. Pre-war, some were allocated to the Northern Division and there are sightings of them as far north as Perth, one in Aberdeen! Post war, there is not a single sighting in Scotland, although I'm sure Kingmoor must occasionally have borrowed one to work northwards! Likewise, Willesden must surely have used them on the cross-London lines to the Southern.

 

Unless your modelling a GWR single line branch, you could almost certainly justify having one!

[Focalplane]

In the days when I visited Willesden shed regularly ( 1960-5), Bescot, and Nuneaton based examples turned up there with monotonous regularity. They were used on part fitted freights, both day and night, they were known for their ability to accelerate sharply when working between passenger trains on the busy WCML.

I believe they were also based at Aston during this period, or maybe earlier.

[bike2steam]

In fact half the class, at one time or another, were based at Aston but mostly in the early 50's, but the last few had transferred to Bescot by '62, by which time half the class was at Nuneaton to cover a lot of the part fitted freight workings to London during electrification, which then gradually went over to diesel working. 

Edited December 6, 2014 by bike2steam

[finelines]

I read somewhere that a lot of the straight framed crabs ended their lives at Lostock Hall. The rtr model railway industry is in such dire straits because this is one of my last planned loco purchases! When Bachmann (the most likely) announce an Austin 7 and the L&Y 0-6-0, that'll be it apart from impulse buys!

 

Roger

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Unless your modelling a GWR single line branch, you could almost certainly justify having one!

But it's a rarity. Rather have a Black 5 as the LMR MT 'visitor', which I bet did on occasion get down a GWR branch, as well as most everywhere else. (And the current Hornby model isn't quite the thing...)

[PenrithBeacon]

The last time I saw one was at Appleby in 1966 I think. It was on the afternoon pick up. Arrived from Carlisle with a brakevan in tow and left south with an additional mineral. Picking were poor by that time, it was the only steam engine seen all afternoon.

 

Regards

[pH]

I thought these things were the ultimate 'stealth' engines. You never knew where you might run into one. There weren't enough of them, unlike Stanier 5s, that you could expect one on any train. They weren't normal express power that you could expect on expresses. They weren't really concentrated in certain areas, unlike, for example, the earlier 'Crabs', so you couldn't be sure of going there and seeing several in one day. They just turned up, or you ran into one or two in a shed yard.

 

The allocations varied a lot over the years, originally they were allocated to all four LMS divisions but by the 1950s they were concentrated around Birmingham (Aston, Bushbury, Monument Lane) and roughly the North West (Crewe [North and South], Mold Junction, later extending to Stoke, Heaton Mersey, Gorton, Nuneaton and Springs Branch, Wigan. They could turn up almost anywhere on excursions, North Wales coast, Southport, Blackpool, Lake District, Skegness and Scarborough. As said, Fast Fitted Goods was their forte and they worked all the WCML south of Crewe (they did work over Shap, but not often), the Midland over the S&C to Carlisle, also to Somers Town (London) and Bristol, over the Pennines and occasionally into South Wales. In the 1960s, they also penetrated the Fens country from Peterborough. They regularly penetrated ex-GWR and LNER lines, but I have only a single sighting (out of over 20,000!) on Southern territory. Pre-war, some were allocated to the Northern Division and there are sightings of them as far north as Perth, one in Aberdeen! Post war, there is not a single sighting in Scotland, although I'm sure Kingmoor must occasionally have borrowed one to work northwards! Likewise, Willesden must surely have used them on the cross-London lines to the Southern.

 

I'm interested to see that there were allocations to the LMS Northern Division (Scotland). I've seen it printed that, to the author's knowledge, they never worked north of Carlisle. (Though, given your forum name, and the identity of that author, I believe you rather than him!) He may have been correct in BR days, as you say - I never knew of one there. They definitely got as far as Kingmoor marshalling yards and Kingmoor shed - I did see members of the class in both those places. 

 

I read somewhere that a lot of the straight framed crabs ended their lives at Lostock Hall.

 

AFAIK, Lostock Hall never had any of them, at least in the 1960s. The last sheds with significant numbers were Heaton Mersey, Gorton and Springs Branch. I saw 4 of them at Springs Branch in January 1966, the most I had ever seen together and the last ones I saw in BR service.

[finelines]

You could well be right, but I'm sure it was one of the local sheds. I was under the impression that it was a relatively small allocation but as soon as they failed they went for scrap and were sent replacements and so on.

 

Roger

[LMS2968]

The list of allocations I gave wasn't comprehensive: I got bored after a while(!) but it included all the places where there were large or long standing allocations. For example, I didn't mention Brunswick on the CLC which only ever had one allocated - 2949 - but that allocation lasted nearly nine years.

 

The allocations quoted are from the Engine History Cards so I can vouch for the Scottish allocations. Originally, they were sent to the four LMS Divisions, but had been concentrated on the Western Division (ex-LNWR) before WW II, possibly to allow more intensive use by the same crews, who would therefore get a better understanding of them.

 

Although they did turn up at Lostock Hall occasionally, they were never on that shed's books, although a couple did spend time at Preston shed. As said, they were generally Western Division engines rather than Central, which all went out the window towards the end. Aintree was home for at least one of them for a while.

 

I have all this plus an extensive collection of photographs in the Fund's Archive, and am happy to share information with people, although you would need to tell me what you need; it's too vast to simply put everything on here.

[73080]

Looking for an excuse to run one of these models on a Midland lines steam transition layout ?

 

An unusual mid-1960s working of a Stanier Mogul on the Midland lines was on 4th January 1965.  42958 worked a southbound Class 7 mineral train through Chesterfield late morning or early afternoon that day.

 

42958 was officially re-allocated to 9G (Gorton) week ending 2 January 1965 (from 1F Rugby ?) so maybe it bounced up and down the Midland lines a few times in the process of finding its way to its new depot.

[LMS2968]

Hmm... not sure how it got there. From the Archive for 2958:

 

31/12/64 Warrington Dallam shed

01/01/65 Warrington Dallam shed

10/01/65 Birkenhead shed

15/01/65 Newton Heath mpd

28/0165 Newton Heath mpd

24/01/65 Mirfield shed

27/01/65 Mirfield shed

13/02/65 Hellifield Southbound passenger Morcambe - Leeds

27/02/65 Guide Bridge Light Engine to Gorton

 

You are correct about the transfer from Rugby to Gorton at that time. And thanks for that sighting - now on the Archive!

[LMS2968]

Having sent that, I realised that I should have asked if anyone has any information on the class which they might like to share with our Archive. Before I got around to posting this Peter (Ph) had already sent me a pm asking if I wanted any such. The answer, of course, is Yes!

 

We currently have over 20,000 sightings of the class in its 33 year history on the LMS and BR, but more is warmly welcomed, be it sightings, photos (don't worry about technical quality), stories and anecdotes. Sightings so far consist of anything between  engine number, date and location; to others with train type, reporting number, direction, number of vehicles, shed code, engine condition and, occasionally, time of day. No-one has yet said what the driver had for breakfast, but basically, the more information, the better. If sending photos, please state any publication conditions, e.g. no publication, in house publication only or free, all subject to full credit being given.

 

Contributions can be sent to archivist@staniermogulfund.org.uk , or through our website, www.staniermogulfund.org.uk

 

Thanks in advance.

[Sweeps]

Anyone got any up to date information on the progress of this loco?

[farren]

Last time I hard (bachmanns press release back in March? ) its not even made it into the drawing office.

Edited June 26, 2015 by farren

[nerron]

Last time I hard (bachmanns press release back in March? ) its not even made it into the drawing office.

According to the latest Bachmann Times it is in the drawing office.

[farren]

Oh thats good then only About 2 years then before we see one in the shop Hopefully fingers crossed and all that. Better start saving.