GWML Electification

[royaloak]

I can understand though why they might want to split up the GW franchise.

Have you seen how they want to carve it up?

It is stupid in the extreme!

 

Devon and Cornwall running trains between Paddington and Bedwyn for example.

[Coryton]

There seems to be confusion in the minds of DfT about what constitutes competition.

Splitting GWR into local and long distance parts would not introduce competition.

Dividing it down the middle into two competing but similar franchises would produce both competition and chaos - and would certainly discourage bidders.

There has been no queue of Open Access operators wishing to operate out of Paddington, suggesting that they do not see any potential. Though of course by the rules Open Access operators are not supposed to compete with franchises anyway. Let Open Access operators compete and you have real competition. But again it would discourage bidders for the franchises, and reduce the "enhancements" that bidders could afford to offer.

So what does DfT have in mind apart from a vague idea that competition is a "good thing" - though i have grave doubts whether it really is in public transport.

Jonathan

 

We have real competition on the railways - at the franchise stage.

 

In principle, this is "proper" competition, unlike the sort you get where different companies run similar but different services, or even the same service but at different times.

[Siberian Snooper]

We had two separate franchises down here in Devon and they got merged and run by First GW and things improved with the integration, we don't have multi track infrastructure on which TOCs can compete, so something has to give, it's better managed by one TOC as connections can be managed and made whereas with two competing TOCs, connections were often missed.

[HillsideDepot]

Have you seen how they want to carve it up?

It is stupid in the extreme!

 

Devon and Cornwall running trains between Paddington and Bedwyn for example.

For those that haven't seen the proposal 

Back at the Electrification, I saw a very poor video clip (taken over the fence, and with excess wobble) of the western approach to Swindon station today where masts have now sprouted. 

[locoholic]

For those that haven't seen the proposal 

 

GW.jpg

Back at the Electrification, I saw a very poor video clip (taken over the fence, and with excess wobble) of the western approach to Swindon station today where masts have now sprouted.

How much neater it would be if the Devon& Cornwall (Red Route) trains were diverted at Exeter and run into London Waterloo instead, so they didn't have to share tracks with the Blue Route trains from Reading into Paddington!!!

 

(Only joking)

[Zomboid]

The obvious impact of that would be on flexibility. The blue franchise most likely won't have any/ many in house drivers who can go via Westbury, and the red franchise might not be able to send trains via Didcot.

At least with GWR they don't need to look outside if that kind of thing becomes necessary.

 

It'll be interesting to see what possible benefits such a division might bring, because I can't see anything on the face of it.

[royaloak]

It'll be interesting to see what possible benefits such a division might bring, because I can't see anything on the face of it.

Work for Civil Servants splitting it up and in a few years time, work for Civil Servants putting it back together again.

All paid for by the railways and its passengers.

 

What do you mean I am being cynical. 

[St. Simon]

Back at the Electrification, I saw a very poor video clip (taken over the fence, and with excess wobble) of the western approach to Swindon station today where masts have now sprouted. 

 

Yes, as of last Wednesday, 4 legs were installed in the station area, 2 on Platform 3 and 2 behind Platform 4. They took me a bit by surprise.

 

Simon

[Zomboid]

Work for Civil Servants splitting it up and in a few years time, work for Civil Servants putting it back together again.

All paid for by the railways and its passengers.

 

What do you mean I am being cynical.

It certainly looks like tinkering for the sake of tinkering, rather than something that'll deliver any tangible benefits to either the government or passengers, and which will make NR's job harder.

 

But aside from that, great plan chaps.

[caradoc]

Some years ago franchises were merged to eliminate the problems of multiple operators into the same London terminus; Presumably that lesson has now been forgotten and we're back to complicating things again. Politicians, please leave the railway alone, even if just for a while, to get on with delivering a service.

[jamie92208]

Some years ago franchises were merged to eliminate the problems of multiple operators into the same London terminus; Presumably that lesson has now been forgotten and we're back to complicating things again. Politicians, please leave the railway alone, even if just for a while, to get on with delivering a service.

All new managers, and I include politicians in that, seem to be infected by the same things,

a) The desire to do something to solve a current problem

b) To want to be seen to have done something and leave a legacy behind.

 

Thus there was a cycle that I saw at work of a new incoming manager who was told of a problem. They instituted some kind of study, this produced a report then an action plan. The plan was implemented and before any meaningful results could be analysed the 'manager moved on leaving others to clear up the mess. However the manager was free to put the process on their CV. Some at work used to call them butterflies. I preferred the term Seagulls as we all know what they leave behind.

 

The process seems to apply in most areas of industry/society and unfortunately people who point out that certain ideas have been tried and rejected before are shouted down for being negative.

 

Maybe I've got a tad cynical over the years.

 

Jamie

Edited December 19, 2017 by jamie92208

[Coryton]

The process seems to apply in most areas of industry/society and unfortunately people who point out that certain ideas have been tried and rejected before are shouted down for being negative.

 

Ah you don't want to listen to people who have been tainted by experience.

[jim.snowdon]

Experience - the enemy of "innovation"

 

Innovation - the solution to everything (and if you believe that, the management job is yours.....)

 

Cynicism - the result of experiencing too much management innovation.

 

Jim

[Mike Storey]

Ah you don't want to listen to people who have been tainted by experience.

 

It was a popular retort amongst the thrusting dynamo elite in my day, that one person's twenty years of experience equalled only one year's experience multiplied by twenty, and was thus often dismissed as Luddite. Until they needed advice on how to get out of any mess in which they might find themselves.

 

An absolute classic example, which happens to be true, and which involved a newish duty station manager who later went on to become the MD of one of the TOC's (but who has since left the industry for a top job elsewhere), concerns the following: An HST had failed in a through platform, due to the non-functioning of something critical in the cab, and was causing horrendous delays. Control asked the manager to check out what was wrong. The manager asked if the other cab was ok, and was told it was. The manager then demanded that the "good" end was run around and attached to the front of the train. All explanation from station staff and train crew that this would not work was dismissed as unhelpful, and the manager pulled rank and insisted they went ahead. So they did, and after many minutes more and many further delays, the power cars ended up facing each other. They then asked the manager what they should do next......

[Titan]

For those that haven't seen the proposal 

GW.jpg

Back at the Electrification, I saw a very poor video clip (taken over the fence, and with excess wobble) of the western approach to Swindon station today where masts have now sprouted. 

 

They don't seem to have a clue about the new Western Link to LHR either. The proposed link is designed for through trans from Reading to London Via Heathrow, whilst the chart implies separate platforms for each direction, with trains terminating and reversing and with different operators...

Edited December 19, 2017 by Titan

[Ron Ron Ron]

They don't seem to have a clue about the new Western Link to LHR either. The proposed link is designed for through trans from Reading to London Via Heathrow, whilst the chart implies separate platforms for each direction, with trains terminating and reversing and with different operators...

 

Sorry, no, that isn't the proposal.

The Link as planned, involves trains running between Heathrow T5 (not the Central area T2 & 3) and Reading.

 

NR have aired the possibility of trains continuing on and running to the west of Reading (e.g. Oxford and/or Basingstoke), partly as a means of addressing platform occupancy capacity at Reading.

 

There has also been some speculation regarding through trains to Paddington, but there a a whole load of issues involved in such a proposal.

 

The operators between Heathrow and Paddington will be TfL (The Elizabeth Line - formerly Crossrail) ....and up to 2023, HEX.

After 2023, it is unknown if HEX will continue to operate this service.

 

It has not yet been determined who will operate between Heathrow T5 and Reading, or what type of service will be provided. 

The Western rail link already has its own discrete platforms at T5. They were put in when the terminal (and its railway station) was constructed.

 

 

 

.

 

.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Ron Ron Ron

[Edwin_m]

It's also related to possible southern link to Heathrow.  If both the southern and the western links happen it is probably better for the southern trains to run through to Paddington as this creates other new journey opportunities such as accessing HS2 at Old Oak from Staines and beyond.  Extending the Reading trains via Heathrow to Paddington creates no such opportunity, as anyone travelling through between east and west of Heathrow already has a direct service. 

[Zomboid]

It was a popular retort amongst the thrusting dynamo elite in my day, that one person's twenty years of experience equalled only one year's experience multiplied by twenty, and was thus often dismissed as Luddite. Until they needed advice on how to get out of any mess in which they might find themselves.

The thing I find is that you do get some people for whom that is true, some people who have 20 years useful experience, and some people who will just resist any change at all.

The key is to be able to tell the difference, which isn't that easy, and the temptation is to dismiss any opposition as wrong - on both sides; the "what do they know, they're only just of of school" attitude is just as unhelpful as declaring someone a luddite if they don't agree with a new clever idea.

 

The guy in your example was just stupid.

[D854_Tiger]

The thing I find is that you do get some people for whom that is true, some people who have 20 years useful experience, and some people who will just resist any change at all.

The key is to be able to tell the difference, which isn't that easy, and the temptation is to dismiss any opposition as wrong - on both sides; the "what do they know, they're only just of of school" attitude is just as unhelpful as declaring someone a luddite if they don't agree with a new clever idea.

 

The guy in your example was just stupid.

 

In my experience, those that think they know it all, inexperienced or highly experienced, can be equal pain in the arses to deal with, even if they do know best, when they are always shouting the odds letting you know about it.

 

I believe the expression is blowing your own trumpet - polite, helpful, no chip on their shoulder, no axe to grind, if they don't know admitting to it and if they do know not making a song and dance about it are the best people you want to be around in the workplace.

[talisman56]

The new wet behind the ears Accountant at a previous job of mine encountered the situation where data transfers from certain offices were being rejected by the system for formatting and value inaccuracies. Instead of letting us analyse where the problem was and come up with recommendations for a solution, he insisted that the checks on the incoming data were removed from the interface program.

 

We refused, he took it up his reporting chain and it came back down mine. I put my case to the Financial Director that his shareholders (at least) wouldn't like the situation where he was reporting erroneous P&L figures and the new Accountant was advised to let the IT Department do its job.

Edited December 19, 2017 by talisman56

[lmsforever]

My last company I worked for had to change its work methods because the new members of staff driving the vans were incapable of reading maps or even remembering a delivery route,so had to use sat navs preprogramed with all the drops for a specific route.Glad that by the time this happened I had retired and did not have to try and train newcomers anymore.

[D854_Tiger]

The new wet behind the ears Accountant at a previous job of mine encountered the situation where data transfers from certain offices were being rejected by the system for formatting and value inaccuracies. Instead of letting us analyse where the problem was and come up with recommendations for a solution, he insisted that the checks on the incoming data were removed from the interface program.

 

We refused, he took it up his reporting chain and it came back down mine. I put my case to the Financial Director that his shareholders (at least) wouldn't like the situation where he was reporting erroneous P&L figures and the new Accountant was advised to let the IT Department do its job.

 

The bluff and bluster brigade.

 

Rule one, never ever disagree with them, never ever gift them with a straight ball, learn the art of a googly (a ball that pretends to be one thing but is in fact another, sometimes referred to as a wrong'un).

 

Always declare your own lack of understanding (even if not the case), succumb to their greater understanding and then fire off the well loaded question, in an appropriate direction (not necessarily their's), with which they can either choose to fry their brains, if they have any, or use to dig the hole even deeper.

[Platform 1]

I'm reliably informed that the aforementioned seagulls/butterflies use the 'Take three envelopes' rules.  But that would be very OT.

[Mike Storey]

The bluff and bluster brigade.

 

Rule one, never ever disagree with them, never ever gift them with a straight ball, learn the art of a googly (a ball that pretends to be one thing but is in fact another, sometimes referred to as a wrong'un).

 

Always declare your own lack of understanding (even if not the case), succumb to their greater understanding and then fire off the well loaded question, in an appropriate direction (not necessarily their's), with which they can either choose to fry their brains, if they have any, or use to dig the hole even deeper.

 

Beware of trying to make them look like utter tw8ts. Remember who recruited them in the first place, and is likely to look just as much of a tw8t if they prove to be "unsuitable". Much better to compromise and show your superior maturity and capability for future use.

[The Stationmaster]

I can understand though why they might want to split up the GW franchise.

 

Here in the West Midlands, we have three franchises competing for our business to London and the perception of the pax is that it works well, so much so, business is booming on all three.

 

Now that maybe far more perception, than actual delivery on performance and fares, but it does seem to work in terms of generating business.

 

The same thing seems to work with the airlines, attracting multiple airlines to the same route doesn't just split the available business multiple ways, it clearly seems to attract new business as well.

 

One morning I decided to use Hampton-in-Arden station, to get to London on LM, an OAP was using the same train and told me how wonderful it was to have a direct train to London from her village, three minutes walk away (a village that is only one station away from International with three Pendolinos every hour), allowing her to visit her daughter down in London (all on one train). I got the distinct impression she was making that journey more often because of it.

 

I can't see why they want to split it, especially the way they actually propose to do it.  I can't see that it delivers anything at all to passengers or even potential passengers while at the same time considerably increasing costs, including the costs to me as a tax payer (and I have made that point several times in my response to the consultation document).

 

Oddly they are almost going as far as splitting the franchise area back into the three parts it has sorted of consisted of in the past - with no doubt increased and more expensive timetabling process complexity as a result plus the obviously increase costs of creating a completely new franchise which means an additional operator in order to run it.  The whole thing comes over as 'this week's bright idea' of taking us back to an earlier idea which was found to be inefficient and not to work (which is another point I have made in my comments on the consultation document).  Basically boils down to the lunatics being in charge of the asylum syndrome I think.

 

PS I have actually also suggested what amounts to a minor enlargement of the franchise by suggesting the principal South Wales main line stations Swansea and east thereof should be included in it (because the mess Arriva made of Class 800 introduction and lack of station staff training on their part.  Bet that'll go down well with the mandarins, almost as well as my suggestion that they should get on with the full original GWML & branches electrification and that giving NR a good kicking might be far more effective than some sort of spurious 'joint' management of the infrastructure.

Edited December 21, 2017 by The Stationmaster