RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted January 11, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11, 2014 A search for 'Borchester' here, reveals some other sources of various Borchester articles. http://www.magazineexchange.co.uk/model-railway/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godders Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 I know that Borchester Market still exists, I've seen it several times but how inspirational was/is it? Has anyone copied it? Cheers Godders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted January 11, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11, 2014 I know that Borchester Market still exists, I've seen it several times but how inspirational was/is it? Has anyone copied it? Cheers Godders Interesting question. Does a layout need to be copied for it to be inspirational? Has anybody copied Buckingham, or the "Little long drag" or an other of the layouts that have cropped up in the "What layouts have inspired you" thread? The original Borchester layout probably had a greater impact on the hobby than the later one. It was very realistic for its time and gave a convincing portrayal of the normal and every day aspects of railways in the period. The operational aspects of the layout, recreating what was, then, almost modern image modelling, were way ahead of their time and people still recall the large crowds that gathered round the layout at exhibitions. Borchester Market is probably slightly less influential on the hobby as a whole as it was a follow up and pretty much "more of the same". Frank Dyer's ideas behind the layouts are, to me, still as valid as ever and his "special" issue of a magazine and his series on operating layouts in MRJ should be read by anybody who wants to make a success of recreating realistic operation on their layouts. Borchester Market is a superb example of how to build a realistic and very interesting operational layout in quite a small space. Perhaps it is a layout that we should be copying, or at least nicking ideas from. The design and the set up of the layout for operation are something we could all learn something from. How inspirational a layout is or isn't is really down to the individual. There are some layouts that others have found inspirational that do little to float my boat. I certainly find Borchester Market inspirational and there seem to be a number of others who do too, so perhaps that qualifies it to earn the title. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 I haven't copied it, but Frank Dyer's Borchester layouts have been so inspirational to me over the years that my loft layout is named Borchester. I've never seen the original layout, but the pix posted earlier are superb. I have a few magazines with Borchester articles which I keep together, they are the superb mag "Model Railways" for September 1980, which dedicates the whole magazine to this layout. If anything deserves a reprint / posting on the web this does, all 26 pages of it complete with a few full page colour. I also have the Model Railway Journal No 27 (1988) which has an 18 page article on Franks old layout titled "The life and lessons of The Borchesters, again a superb article. There also were a few articles by Frank describing his locos in 1960-something Model Railway Constructor mags. I have a couple of these but can't find em at the moment. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted January 12, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) I haven't copied it, but Frank Dyer's Borchester layouts have been so inspirational to me over the years that my loft layout is named Borchester. I've never seen the original layout, but the pix posted earlier are superb. I have a few magazines with Borchester articles which I keep together, they are the superb mag "Model Railways" for September 1980, which dedicates the whole magazine to this layout. If anything deserves a reprint / posting on the web this does, all 26 pages of it complete with a few full page colour. I also have the Model Railway Journal No 27 (1988) which has an 18 page article on Franks old layout titled "The life and lessons of The Borchesters, again a superb article. There also were a few articles by Frank describing his locos in 1960-something Model Railway Constructor mags. I have a couple of these but can't find em at the moment. Brit15 See link 26 above for a list of those issuses. Sorry its 26 not 25. Edited January 12, 2014 by kevinlms Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glo41f Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 I had the pleasure of knowing Frank when he was still living in North London and used to attend the Model Railway Cub on thursday evenings. He was always approachable and would help out with advice when asked. I can recall the first exhibition of Borchester Market at the MRC show at Wembley when the croawd was five deep all around and for most of the day. You could not get near it! It was an amazing railway then and now and I am am so pleased that it is still around to inspire us. I do hpe the present owners continue the spirit of the line and operated as Frank would have done. Thank you chaps for saving it. By the way I would love to have a play! Regards Martin Long 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godders Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Interesting question. Does a layout need to be copied for it to be inspirational? Has anybody copied Buckingham, or the "Little long drag" or an other of the layouts that have cropped up in the "What layouts have inspired you" thread? The original Borchester layout probably had a greater impact on the hobby than the later one. It was very realistic for its time and gave a convincing portrayal of the normal and every day aspects of railways in the period. The operational aspects of the layout, recreating what was, then, almost modern image modelling, were way ahead of their time and people still recall the large crowds that gathered round the layout at exhibitions. Borchester Market is probably slightly less influential on the hobby as a whole as it was a follow up and pretty much "more of the same". Frank Dyer's ideas behind the layouts are, to me, still as valid as ever and his "special" issue of a magazine and his series on operating layouts in MRJ should be read by anybody who wants to make a success of recreating realistic operation on their layouts. Borchester Market is a superb example of how to build a realistic and very interesting operational layout in quite a small space. Perhaps it is a layout that we should be copying, or at least nicking ideas from. The design and the set up of the layout for operation are something we could all learn something from. How inspirational a layout is or isn't is really down to the individual. There are some layouts that others have found inspirational that do little to float my boat. I certainly find Borchester Market inspirational and there seem to be a number of others who do too, so perhaps that qualifies it to earn the title. Tony Tony, I hope I haven't mislead you into thinking I was criticising the layout. Nothing could be further from the truth, I love it. There was a hidden agenda in my question, I have viewed it for hours, photographed it, read articles and seen track plans. However, I can't get my head around the track geometry. Using Templot, I have found it next to impossible to fit the layout into the space and it puzzles me greatly. I wish I could have bought it but I couldn't have given it the care that the present owners have. Note to Martin Long, keep away the railway is in Sussex and we don't want you "Northeners" coming down here and stealing our women, jobs, model railways... The Joint East & West Sussex Parliament is meeting (COBRA) to prevent acts of terrorism, so don't be surprised to find our border defences strengthened. Cheers Godders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 13, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2014 Using Templot, I have found it next to impossible to fit the layout into the space and it puzzles me greatly. Hi Godders, You will need to use very short turnouts. Try using 9ft straight switches, or the GWR 9ft and 10ft curved switches. There are also some very short non-prototypical "model" switches in the Templot switch list. You can shorten turnouts even further (at the expense of a smaller radius) by increasing the crossing entry straight (SHIFT+F11 mouse action). Here is such a turnout -- "model" switch, 1:5, entry straight increased down to radius 600mm: I have seen it reported that Frank Dyer was an early adopter of the reduced 16mm or 16.2mm track gauge for 00 (now called 00-SF). Can anyone provide a definitive answer to the track gauge used on Borchester Market? Perhaps the new owners could measure it? (On straight track -- Frank would have added some gauge widening on the sharp curves.) Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 How big is Borchester Market? I'm guessing 18 x 10, based on the photos I've seen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godders Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Hi Godders, You will need to use very short turnouts. Try using 9ft straight switches, or the GWR 9ft and 10ft curved switches. There are also some very short non-prototypical "model" switches in the Templot switch list. You can shorten turnouts even further (at the expense of a smaller radius) by increasing the crossing entry straight (SHIFT+F11 mouse action). Here is such a turnout -- "model" switch, 1:5, entry straight increased down to radius 600mm: I have seen it reported that Frank Dyer was an early adopter of the reduced 16mm or 16.2mm track gauge for 00 (now called 00-SF). Can anyone provide a definitive answer to the track gauge used on Borchester Market? Perhaps the new owners could measure it? (On straight track -- Frank would have added some gauge widening on the sharp curves.) Martin. Hi Martin, My mind couldn't conceive going down to such tight radii and short lengths. I shall try again but believe me it is purely academic. Hi Dr Fritters, Borchester Market is 13ft x 8ft, according to the Model Rail drawing, with a virtually empty 2ft section on the width for fiddle yard access. That is therefore 13ft x 10ft, remarkable, ain't it? Cheers Godders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Hi Dr Fritters, Borchester Market is 13ft x 8ft, according to the Model Rail drawing, with a virtually empty 2ft section on the width for fiddle yard access. That is therefore 13ft x 10ft, remarkable, ain't it? That is astounding! I could fit that into my shed! Is there a plan available online? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 13, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2014 Is there a plan available online? I can't find one. However, the control panel diagram is available here: http://www.newhavendmrc.com/club-layouts/borchester-market-1/ I have imported it into Templot and stretched it to fit my best guess of sizes, as a planning guide. I have made a start in aligning tracks over it: I have settled on a turnout with a GWR curved 10ft switch and 1:5.5 crossing angle. This gives a radius in 00 of 33", which sounds about right for a "traditional" scale 00 layout. When I get further on I may be able to ease that to 1:6 -- which is the practical minimum for a slip. Martin. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted January 13, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 13, 2014 Tony, I hope I haven't mislead you into thinking I was criticising the layout. Nothing could be further from the truth, I love it. There was a hidden agenda in my question, I have viewed it for hours, photographed it, read articles and seen track plans. However, I can't get my head around the track geometry. Using Templot, I have found it next to impossible to fit the layout into the space and it puzzles me greatly. I wish I could have bought it but I couldn't have given it the care that the present owners have. Note to Martin Long, keep away the railway is in Sussex and we don't want you "Northeners" coming down here and stealing our women, jobs, model railways... The Joint East & West Sussex Parliament is meeting (COBRA) to prevent acts of terrorism, so don't be surprised to find our border defences strengthened. Cheers Godders Not at all. Likewise I apologise if my posting led you to think so! I really do think that it is an interesting question, why some layouts are known for being inspirational and others don't. In one of the articles in MRJ Frank Dyer describes his approach to designing a layout. He talks a great deal about compromises and how to adjust track layouts to get more into a given space and also about using transition curves. He also talks about how making your own track frees you from the constraints of RTL track and can allow a great deal of space saving because you don't need to have the same distance between, for example, the crossing nose of one point and the blades of the next. It is very pragmatic and more about building a complex and interesting layout in a small space than it is about prototype accuracy but it is an approach, which can lead to a highly individual layout that stands out from the crowd, as both Borchester layouts have done. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godders Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 That is astounding! I could fit that into my shed! Is there a plan available online? Hi Dr Fritters, I have a scan of the Model Rail plan (in MS paint, .png format) but am reluctant to post it on here because I suppose it is copy right. However, I believe I can mail you a copy. Can someone clarify, I don't want the scourging flames of Andy Y on my back. Cheers Godders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60526 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Quite a few question to answer perhaps. Track gauge - I saw this 16.2mm track gauge mentioned before, if i can find it Frank had a piece of paper pinned to the layout above his workbench, but I know it says 16.5mm. We've even had a vernier gauge and feelers out to check the dimensions and clearances, came to the conclusion that 16.5mm was the minimum gauge, there is even a bit of widening in a couple of places. We were having problems with a couple of RTR locos getting sqeezed on the points at the time. I don't have a decent copy of the track plan at the moment, I'll scan a good copy and post it tomorrow. As some people found out at Warley and other exhibitions, the fiddleyard is worthy of exhibiting in it's own right, some of the pointwork is amazing, the MRail plan doesn't show all the detail. Martin, if you want to send a PM we'll see if you can have a 'play with it'. As for the layouts future, there are no plans not to keep on exhibiting it as long as we keep on being invited and there is the interest. Must admit that Warley was a bit special for the layout last year, shame that none of the Dyer family could see it, mind you they had a good time at Ally Pally the other year. Layout size, the original dimensions were 13' x 10'-4", we've added 2' onto what Frank called the Main Line fiddleyard (Great Northern Fyard to us) to store some of the locos off of the turntable and we've add 1' to the depth to widen what Frank called the Loop Line fiddleyard (Great Central to us), this gives us an extra 6" to sqeeze by and the fyard board is 6" wider. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Anyone have anything on Borchester Town? I built a partial replica in my earliest return to modelling days, hampered by not having a track plan so I cadged from a few photos in an early MRJ I believe... It was fun, but the contemporary rtr locos weren;t and I soon moved on to better things... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60526 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 First off is the 1959 track plan for Borchester Town. The layout was developed over the years, at one time it was a terminus. Next is the 1980 Borchester Market track plan. It had changed very slighty from then to 2005 when we took the layout over, the reverse siding in the loop fiddle yard had been removed, the point was still there but it had been soldered up. In the mainline fyard immediately in front of the operating position are 3 sidings, again there was a soldered up point in the nearest line indicating that there had probably been 4 sidings when it was in Winchmore Hill, N.London. When looking at one of the original concept plans it shows a single line engine shed near the main station loco yard ash pit siding but it was never added as far as we know. Something deceptive that you would not immediately notice, the Market station was not level. All the way from the buffer stops round to Wellow East Junction the grade was down. From here to the lhs buffer stops in the main line fiddleyard the grade was up. To stop the stock running away Frank had fitted a friction devise to the axles of the stock ( a piece of wire), the idea being to make the grade coming up from the loop fyard as easy as possible. Absolutely ingenious. The layout was set up on individual legs which made setting the board levels fairly each but you could tell that the layout was not really made for exhibitions in the amount of time it took to set it up and even worse to break it down. We don't have any of the original stock and as such we don't have friction devices fitted, so the main boards are now level, meaning that we have fun when the wrong loco tries to come up the bank to Wellow East Junction. The layout now runs on inverted tressles where we only have to slide the boards on and connect them up. Most of the boards now have bracing of one kind or another to stop them flexing around too much, they are very heavy, mostly made of recycled 1" blockboard, problems have occured where this has become delaminated, but a 3/4" deep hole filled with glue has helped to keep these problems at bay. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted January 15, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2014 The joys of looking after old layouts built by other people! I have been asked about exhibiting parts of Buckingham other than Leighton Buzzard (which was designed to be portable). The baseboards for the rest of the layout are so flimsy (including a good dose of now treated woodworm) and when we moved the layout to its new home, every time the boards were lifted, they twisted and many brittle soldered joints in the track broke. Whole lengths of rail just fell off, or just remained attached by the electrical wiring. So I can really understand just how much work goes into such a project and also how much the rest of us should applaud the current Borchester crew for not just saving the layout but for bringing it out to shows so that we get the chance to see and enjoy it. Tony 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Tony, do you have the whole of the Buckingham terminus? Another inspirational layout from my youth, I'd be very happy to hear it survives and is loved. And many, many thanks to 60526 (Sugar Palm?) for looking after Borchester - I hope to see it in the flesh one day. It's on the list of greats from my early days, including Wallsea, Halebarns and Happisburgh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted January 16, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) Tony, do you have the whole of the Buckingham terminus? Another inspirational layout from my youth, I'd be very happy to hear it survives and is loved. And many, many thanks to 60526 (Sugar Palm?) for looking after Borchester - I hope to see it in the flesh one day. It's on the list of greats from my early days, including Wallsea, Halebarns and Happisburgh. I am very glad to be able to say that the whole Buckingham layout, complete with all the original stock and the amazing "Automatic Crispin" is currently being re-assembled so that it will look and work just as it did in the railway room in Truro. It has been a long job as we did much damage moving it but real progress is being made now. Grandborough Junction has been tackled first and this ended up being rewired completely (using all the original home made switches and controls) because the wiring defeated me. I posted a photo on another thread but I am repeating it here to give an idea of what we were faced with.... In fact, only this week we had trains running properly from the fiddle yard to Grandborough Junction and back. We did much less damage moving Buckingham itself so I hope that getting that part going again should be a lot quicker. We are now limiting exhibitions with Leighton Buzzard to one or two a year to avoid over exposure and also to slow down the rate of accumulation of wear and tear, so this year the only show we are doing is York at Easter. Next year we are doing Railex plus the special 60th anniversary EMGS show at Bracknell. I feel that I have slightly hijacked a Borchester thread now, so I hope the originator will let me off! Tony ps And yes, it is very much loved and I am treating it with great care and respect! Edited January 16, 2014 by t-b-g 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CUTLER2579 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 That looks like the wiring of the bearded man of Thorne if I am not mistaken. :nono: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted January 17, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2014 That looks like the wiring of the bearded man of Thorne if I am not mistaken. :nono: Nope! that is all pure Denny, as dismantled by the bearded man of Thorne! The daft thing is that all that is under Grandborough Junction yet the layout works well with none of it connected. I think most of it is for the Automatic Crispin or for the clever bit which switches the whole layout from single handed to multiple handed operating with just one push button. It baffles me, that is for sure! I was hoping he would help me put it back together again but as you know, he doesn't get out much and has only been once. Best wishes, Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted January 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) At the risk of deviating further, I had the pleasure of seeing Leighton Buzzard at the Rail Wells show earlier this year. Very nice it was to finally see it in the flesh/wood/metal etc..... I rejoined Cardiff Model Engineering society just before Christmas after a gap of a few years. We had just acquired Hardwicke when I left, along with his rolling stock. Frank was, I believe, a member of the club when he lived in Caerphilly. Some of the members used to go to his home for running sessions on Borchester. Hardwicke is a lovely layout and featured in Model Rail a few years ago now. I was able to look over it just before Christmas. It really is a time capsule and, like Borchester a fitting tribute to one of the great pioneers of our hobby. Rob. Edited January 17, 2014 by nhy581 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted January 17, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2014 At the risk of deviating further, I had the pleasure of seeing Leighton Buzzard at the Rail Wells show earlier this year. Very nice it was to finally see it in the flesh/wood/metal etc..... I rejoined Cardiff Model Engineering society just before Christmas after a gap of a few years. We had just acquired Hardwicke when I left, along with his rolling stock. Frank was, I believe, a member of the club when he lived in Caerphilly. Some of the members used to go to his home for running sessions on Borchester. Hardwicke is a lovely layout and featured in Model Rail a few years ago now. I was able to look over it just before Christmas. It really is a time capsule and, like Borchester a fitting tribute to one of the great pioneers of our hobby. Rob. Wells was a lovely show for Leghton Buzzard. Two of Peter Denny's sons, Crispin and Stephen, were on the operating team. The quality of running on the layout was the best yet and the two sons reckoned that it is probably running even better than it did when their father had it, which was a very nice comment to hear! I saw Hardwicke at the MRJ show all those years ago. It is another layout full of proper railway atmosphere. Are there any plans to exhibit that? It would be nice to see the original Borchester locos and stock working again. Tony 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted January 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2014 Not sure Tony. Club are busy building new layout. Hardwicke is in storage. If I hear anything, I will post it here. Rob 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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