The photo looks posed to me; everyone being given a different job to represent the range of tasks of which women are capable...

Not including bouncing up and down on the middle of a sagging plank!

1 hour ago, Western Star said:

Of course, maybe we are making an error by assuming that the wagon was registered with the GWR!

Well, surely an Ocean wagon would most probably have spent its days on the rails of the Taff Vale Railway? 

1 hour ago, Western Star said:

Purely in the interest of historical accuracy...

Ian Pope and I have spent several hours in trying to trace any Ocean wagon with the number 917 as in the photo herein. 

I just followed the photo in the Slaters instructions - honest, yer Honour!

If I had realised this was a controversial wagon, I would not have been so lazy and done the four digit number of the example in the Montague book on GRCW wagons…

And thanks to @Mikkel for posting those great photos of the paint shops, though as @Compound2632 says, practice for PO wagons being painted in relatively small quantities of any one design would likely be rather different to the standard liveries of the railway companies themselves.

Nick.

But just to add to the confusion, during the 25" GW period wagons on which they would not fit had smaller sizes - so four-plank wagons had initials about three planks high:

These are the sort of thing that go unnoticed when they are right but stick out like a sore thumb when they are wrong.

54 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

But just to add to the confusion, during the 25" GW period wagons on which they would not fit had smaller sizes - so four-plank wagons had initials about three planks high:

 

Thanks, Stephen, for posting this picture, which I haven’t seen before. Do you have a date for it?

Also - and apologies for some OT questions - I am curious about the number on what seems to be the inside of the sheet on the single-plank wagon. Above and a little to the right of the bowler hat, where the sheet is turned up and restrained by the tie, there are some numbers - possibly two ‘1’s and definitely a ‘4’. The 4 is the right way up, and not reversed, on what looks like it is the inside of the sheet. Were sheets painted with the lettering and numbers on both sides? In any case, the number should be upside down, as the sheet edge has been turned up - unless it was painted on the inside this way on purpose to make the number visible when the sheet was used turned-up on low-sided wagons?

The other thing I am curious about is the state of both the sheets and the single plank wagon. Both sheets look like fabric, in the sense you can see the texture, and they are quite matt. This contrasts with phots of new sheets, which are smooth and with quite a shine. I am pondering this as I wrestle with making wagon sheets to look half-way realistic in 7mm scale.

Also, the lettering on the single plank wagon is quite grubby - but what colour is the grub? Grey, brown, black? I realise any answer in somewhat speculative, in the absence of colour photographs, but I would be interested in people’s speculations!

Nick.

8 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Thanks, Stephen, for posting this picture, which I haven’t seen before. Do you have a date for it?

Stourbridge, 24 April 1905, so the paint on the 4-plank wagon cannot be much more than a year old, at most:

Quite apart from the superb detail of the brake gear etc. and one of the best photos I know of for the chiseled-out lettering on the solebar of a wood-framed Great Western wagon, it's inspiration for when shelf space gets tight for one's growing wagon collection.

That's a very interesting point about the number on the sheet. I have to say I've not given thought to modelling the underside of a wagon sheet, but here's an instance where it is visible! Would you say you could just make out a number in the same position on the sheet on the 4-plank wagon? - possibly serif rather than block digits? On both wagons, the sheet is tied down with ties through the eyelets on the three tabs sewn into the first seam, rather than the eyelets along the long edges. Where I've modelled that, I've tried - not very successfully - to represent a "furled sail" look, but an upturned edge might be easier.

I think sheets probably quite rapidly lost their shine but I'd need to go away and hunt for photos to demonstrate this.

As to the one-plank wagon, I've nailed my colour firmly to the red lead-painted mast!

I'm convinced by the logic of the argument that says that the change of colour must have come with the adoption of the radically different lettering style in 1904. What evidence there is has been chewed over several times on here; there are contemporary descriptions of Great Western wagons being in both colours in the decade before the great war - @Mikkel and @MikeOxon have assembled the evidence. 

One point on which I've dithered is whether ironwork below the solebar should be red or black. Red would be consistent with practice in the post-1904 grey period; I can't see any change of hue where the brake V-hanger crosses the lower edge of the solebar. But on the other hand there are plenty of photos of well-worn Midland wagons where no boundary can be seen, though the part on the solebar was definitely grey and that below, black.

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

One point on which I've dithered is whether ironwork below the solebar should be red or black. Red would be consistent with practice in the post-1904 grey period; I can't see any change of hue where the brake V-hanger crosses the lower edge of the solebar. But on the other hand there are plenty of photos of well-worn Midland wagons where no boundary can be seen, though the part on the solebar was definitely grey and that below, black.

I don’t think we’ll ever know, and photos don’t help as the emulsions on the plate glass negatives are very, very poor at distinguishing between red and black. I think a single colour is logical, as with post-1904 grey, just as you do, but others differ. I think we can do nothing other than make our own choices here.

1 minute ago, Regularity said:

I think we can do nothing other than make our own choices here.

Absolutely. I am simply re-stating my own choice. Even RTR manufacturers differ.

Indeed. I can see arguments for and against. Does anyone know a student of the Barry railway company? It would be interesting to see what could be found on goods liveries in Barry Railway archives, as the goods wagons of that company tend to be depicted with red body and black ironwork beneath the solebars. There might be some clues as to the reasoning that could help the GWR discussion (not in  cherry-picking way, but to cast light on rationales). When I did a quick dive into the Barry some years ago the sources were not clear, although Slinn says black underframes beneath the solebars.

3 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Does anyone know a student of the Barry railway company? 

You want the Welsh Railways Research Circle. @corneliuslundie may be able to advise.

4 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Leaving aside for one moment what the nature of these 'templates' was, edition 1 (which doesn't mention them as far as I can see) puts the date of the size changeover as 1920. How explicit is edition 2's '1921'?

I'll check when I get home this evening, but I think the circular is given a specific date in edition 2....

What are Slinn's sources of information? Does he cite them? (Either on this specific point or generally.)

15 minutes ago, kitpw said:

I've scanned the acknowledgements and bibliography page

Many thanks for that. My antennae start twitching when a secondary source is cited as gospel - and I mention Dow's Midland Style in this context too. With the latter, I've found that digging deeper into primary sources (thanks to the Midland Railway Study Centre) confirms what is written; Slinn's acknowledgements indicate that, like Dow, he had access to primary material and a good deal of information "from the horse's mouth" if the shades of the Swindon Drawing Offices will forgive the term!

I am no expert on the Barry, but I know of a couple, though they are not on RMWeb.

Several people have already quoted "Great Western Way". The most recent edition was published in 2009 as Second (revised and extended) Edition. That edition was compiled by 

John Lewis.

It states regarding the GWR: "In 1904 the appearance of the Company freight stock was transformed. It was probably at this time that grey became the body colour for almost all goods stock . . . "

but nothing about underframes.

The drawing of 1921 lettering is referenced in the text as having been attached to a circular dated 17 August 1921 from the CME's office. 

Regarding Barry freight stock, the same volume says:

"Wagon stock was painted dark red . . .  " with again no mention of the solebars. The WRRC volume of Barry drawings merely followed GWW.

You could try contacting Tony Miller, who is WRRC archivist,. He is a Barry follower. His e-mail address there is archivist @ wrrc.org.uk (take out the spaces).

Jonathan

8 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Leaving aside for one moment what the nature of these 'templates' was, edition 1 (which doesn't mention them as far as I can see) puts the date of the size changeover as 1920. How explicit is edition 2's '1921'?

If they stopped using the 25” on 31.12.20, and began using the 16” on 1.1.21, then both editions would be correct… 

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

The drawing of 1921 lettering is referenced in the text as having been attached to a circular dated 17 August 1921 from the CME's office.

The 2009 edition says:

”1921 to 1937

The large 25in letters on freight stock survived the Great War and re-paints of 1919 came out with the full panoply although another change was in the offing. The main alteration of 1921 was to reduce the size of the letters "G” and "W" to a maximum of 16in high but the layout of the body sides and ends otherwise remained generally unchanged. A 1921 photograph of open wagon 98289 shows it with 25 inch letters, although this example was built by the Birmingham Railway Carriage & Wagon Co Ltd. In conjunction with the change in lettering the CME's Office issued Circular 3627 on 17th August, 1921. This said:

"Lettering on Great Western Wagons

I shall be glad if you will arrange as wagons pass through your hands for repainting to paint G W in 1'4" letters.

The lettering should be executed as per accompanying print No. 61468, and I will also ask you to kindly note that, in order to facilitate the work, a set of zinc templates has been forwarded to ….

In the interests of economy, however, your people should be firmly instructed that the new letters are only to be painted on the vehicles when it is necessary to renew the existing lettering owing to the whole or part of the vehicle requiring repainting.

Please acknowledge receipt."“
 

So unless Slinn got in a muddle with the date of the circular, that seems like solid evidence the change was instructed by the CME’s office in August 1921.

Nick.