16 minutes ago, magmouse said:

The lettering should be executed as per accompanying print No. 61468

Nick - thanks for that:  it sounds like the updated edition relies on evidence that wasn't available in the earlier impressions as there was no mention there of templates nor of the CME's circular.  I would like to get hold of print No 61468, I wonder if it's sitting in an archive somewhere?

Kit PW

5 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

It states regarding the GWR: "In 1904 the appearance of the Company freight stock was transformed. It was probably at this time that grey became the body colour for almost all goods stock . . . "

Oh.

So Jack Slinn edition 1 has 1898* as the changeover from red to grey, but John Lewis edition 3 goes for 1904.

*Actually, GWW edition 1 is remarkably vague regarding the introduction of grey, it is Atkins el al who are unequivocal about 1898.

14 minutes ago, magmouse said:

I guess that drawing isn’t in the first edition either…?

Edition 1 page 105 is a full-page set of sketches labelled 'Wagon Lettering 1921', so I guess that is based on dwg 61468.

On 20/04/2022 at 17:29, Compound2632 said:

My antennae start twitching when a secondary source is cited as gospel ...

 

Slinn's acknowledgements indicate that, like Dow, he had access to primary material and a good deal of information "from the horse's mouth" if the shades of the Swindon Drawing Offices will forgive the term!

To put some background to Stephen's comments...  I was introduced to Jack through the first edition of the HMRS Livery Register of the GWR.  The pamphlet (word chosen deliberately as this edition was circa 64 pages)  was a birthday present from my parents so I suppose that this event must have been mid 1960s.  At this time the HMRS had an "age" rule... no one under 18 so I had to wait until 1969 before I could become a member and thus able to attend the HMRS meetings in Keen House, London; it was at the London meetings that I met Jack and found that he was able to comment, with apparent authority, upon each and every question that I asked of him.

A couple of years later, say 1970-71 period, Jack asked me to accompany him to Swindon where we were to look through the print albums of the C&W works.  Jack had this idea that looking into the background of photos would provide him with an insight into the everyday working of the company beyond the official subjects as chosen by those on high.   So we walked into the hallowed ground with a nod to the gatekeepers with Jack leading the way to I know not where other than (a) there were racks, boxes, cupboards and cabinets of photos and glass plates...  and (b) thosre present greeted Jack as an old friend (and all dressed in the same appareil of tweed jacket, waistcoat and shirt/tie).  After several hours of peering through magnifying glasses the "head" of the section announced that lunch beckoned.

Not to the canteen, oh no - our guide (the head of the section) took us to a nearby car park from where we went to the guide's home, in Stratton, for lunch.

I cannot recall much about the afternoon, my overidding memory of the day is that all those that I met that day had a respect and a regard for Jack which must have been the result of many meetings over many months.  Put another way, the C&W part of Swindon seemed to be an open house to Jack.

Although not related to Stephen's comments about research and sources there is another story to be told and this story demonstrates - at least to me - that the Old Boys in the works had a pride in what they had achieved and were willing to share their pride with those who were starting on the long road of preservation.  In the mid 1970s the GWS had completed the restoration of Cookham Manor and had asked Swindon to weigh the engine.  So early in the morning we set of from Didcot, I was lucky enough to ride on the footplate.  After the engine had been taken to the weigh house those of us from Didcot were given carte blanche to explore the works.  I talked to many who had worked on steam and some of those men made small gestures about what could be seen (read as found) by visiting specific shops and discrete areas of the stacking grounds.

Clearly word had got round about our visit and many men had taken the opportunity to walk past the weigh house to see Cookham.  Not only had those men a desire to see a live example of their past work, one or two of them passed "redundant" assets into our care;  for "redundant assets" read "steam loco spares".  Gudgeon pins were no longer seen as door stops, they were offered for the future...  valve rods were no longer make weights in crane tenders, they were passed over as necessary parts for those engines emerging from Barry.  Maybe after forty years those acts of kindness with pride appear as such when seen through rose-tinted glasses.  To me that day is just the same as the visit with Jack.

regards, Graham

12 hours ago, magmouse said:

these drawings are based on print no. 61468

Nick - thanks.  I have relied on those diagrams but wondered whether they were a compilation of what could be seen from photos:  the reference to the drawing (print 61468) is absent in my edition of GWW so it's good to know that it's as close to the "original" as we're likely to find without the "print" itself - which I will pursue...

13 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

but John Lewis may remember

as suggested by Jonathan - with thanks for the contact details.

12 hours ago, Western Star said:

Jack asked me to accompany him to Swindon

Thanks for sharing those recollections which affirm why Jack's books are the "go-to" reference - particularly GWW, although it sounds like I'll need to get a more recent edition than my 1985 commemerative "150th anniversary" edition.

Kit PW

On 17/04/2022 at 07:54, Mikkel said:

 

K14 posted some details on pouncing here in this comment, though sadly now without the illustrations: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/blogs/entry/1351-signs-posters-and-adverts/?do=findComment&comment=71867

 

Now sorted (hopefully).

On 15/04/2022 at 21:06, magmouse said:

 

Yes - the sense I have is that signwriting - at least the kind on PO wagons - was based on simple geometries that could be set out with ruler and chalk, and perhaps a piece of string to do the curves (which would all therefore be arcs of a circle. Some things can't be done easily that way - an ampersand, for example - but those could be set out by eye and a few rules of thumb to get the proportions right.

 

Is there any archival material that covers this, evidencing the methods used?

 

Nick.

"Signwork - A Craftsman's Manual" by Bill Stewart was the accepted course book for the City & Guilds Signwriting course that I took back in the 90s, & covers... well, pretty much everything:—

Ebay Listings

There are similar guides in the Internet Archive site, here's one from 1910:— https://archive.org/details/expertsignpainte00kell/mode/2up

A selection:— https://archive.org/search.php?query=Sign painting

Pete S.

13 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Looking at the front page of Bill Stewart's book, I'm wondering if he was involved with the BR totem.

 

Doubtful - I'd have thought that was down to the College Of Heralds, who are literally The Law when it comes to such things. The 1949 totem was a commercial design though.

Besides... there were plenty of examples of a Lion rampant rouge up & down the country that have no railway connection at all.

This one from the Brewery Artists website of the pub sign at Upton Snodsbury looks a bit similaresque.

P.

On 17/04/2022 at 21:01, Western Star said:

Purely in the interest of historical accuracy...

 

Ian Pope and I have spent several hours in trying to trace any Ocean wagon with the number 917 as in the photo herein.  The GWR Freighters Registers for the tail end of the 19th century and the early years of the 20th century exist and there is no entry to match the details on the Gloucester build boards in the Gloster official photo.  Enlargement of a copy of the official photo does not reveal sufficient details on the RCH registration plate to assist in our search for the true identity of the wagon...

 

What might be the case is that Gloster had a large order from Ocean at about the time that the official photo was taken and that the photo shows a wagon from another order which was painted temporarily to confirm details of the livery that was required by Ocean.  Getting the wagon registration number from the RCH plate in the photo would help to resolve the conundrum.

 

Of course, maybe we are making an error by assuming that the wagon was registered with the GWR!

On 17/04/2022 at 22:33, Compound2632 said:

Well, surely an Ocean wagon would most probably have spent its days on the rails of the Taff Vale Railway? 

 

I have had the opportunity to discuss the  question of Ocean no. 917 with Ian Pope again and what follows is my interpretation of that discussion.  To put the question and discussion into contet, Ian has a copy of all of the existing Gloster wagon photos...  and a copy of those GWR Freighters Register which are known to be in existance.  Firstly the photograph...  Ian tells me that the RCH which is visible in the photo provides the following information:-

a/ wagon registered by GWR;

b/ registration date is 1893;

c/ registration number is five digits of which three digits are identifiable.

We spent several hours reading through the Freighters Registers entries for the Ocean Coal company and there is no mention of wagon 917.  This does not mean that the wagon in the Gloster photo is not one belong to the Ocean Coal Company, there is the possibility that the wagon number in the Gloster photo is either (a) wrong or (b) correct when photographed (in which case that number was changed when the wagon was registered).  To resolve this  conundrum requires searching through the Freighters Registers to find an entry for any wagon which might be registered with the number to be seen in the Gloster photograph... a fairly time consuming task with no guarantee of determinacy.

Stephen, @Compound2632,

Ian is of the view that coal from Ocean collieries would have been shipped by the Barry Railway company rather than the Taff Vale Railway company. At this time there is no evidence that the Barry Railway company registered private owner wagons, so possibly the GWR registered wagons on behalf of the BR.  Of course, the absence of evidence is no evidence of absence.

regards, Graham

Well found Mikkel.  Some interesting things there...Mr N has a pencil tucked into his cap (too long for roll-up), Mr E appears to have a pocket full of schoolroom chalks. Mr Numbers is working backwards (or watching paint dry?) from right to left (usual caveat about posed picture I think).  But yes, it appears that all is done with no more than a brush and a mahl stick - and practice! There is an object on the ground near the left hand margin which I recognise (my son has it now so I can't take a picture of it) which is a panel gauge, a larger version of the joiner's marking gauge. The one we have is stamped with my great grandfather's initials: he worked as a carriage builder and it must date from from the last quarter of the C19th.  Perhaps the're using the gauge to get the top line of the 'NE' consistent and parallel as it starts below the plank joint - I'm imagining it perhaps but there appears to be a very faint chalk line above the E.

The large tubular ducting is also of interest: is it air extract , I wonder? 

Thorpe's trials and errors continue and I will post an update when I get somewhere worth reporting.

Kit PW

4 hours ago, Mikkel said:

To spot problems/check repairs?

There's been some recent discussion on another thread initiated by magmouse about white tyres... there remains some uncertainty about it.  I did wonder when Dave John put his question earlier today whether the colouring was being used as a defect detector - sprays/dyes are still used now for checking castings, forgings and welding for surface defects such as hairline cracks.  There are more sophisticated methods of NDT (non destructive testing) but I doubt they were available when that photo was taken.  Nevertheless, I 'm not wholly convinced but I can't offer any better explanation!

Kit PW

On 03/06/2022 at 14:42, Dave John said:

Anyone like to guess as to why  there is a white painted tire on nearest wagon ? 

A little research turned up this "Penetrant Testing started also in second half of 19th century. The first people who applied the "Oil and Whiting" process for crack detection to railway components are unknown"

{History of NDT-Instrumentation: Prof.Dr.-Ing. Volker Deutsch: Wuppertal/Germany] and also, from USA,  "Historically penetrant inspection was called the “oil and whiting method” as it used kerosene and a white powder for the inspection of railroad parts. However in the past 40 years the process has been improved tremendously to the point where it is a reliable and accurate inspection technique." [https://worldofndt.com/history-of-non-destructive-testing/]   the site gives a resume of testing methods.  I'm still not entirely convinced but perhaps, as is commonplace, for instance, in steelwork fabrication, a particular percentage of items are randomly checked from any batch - so one wheel out of however many are in the paintshop is possible: perhaps another couple will be checked before the wagons leave the shop.

Kit PW