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45 ton Ransomes Crane

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

It will, of course, look a lot more impressive on the shelves in a big box with the jib up. Given the price of it, anything that makes it look worth the money will be valuable. 

 

[edit]

 

Actually, though, thinking about it, it's a big unit however you package it - the match trucks and jib support wagon all take up space, too. So maybe having the jib raised will make the best use of what, from the side on, would be an essentially square box. The smaller items can then go either side of the jib rather than end to end with the main body of the crane.

 

Terminology check, to avoid any ongoing confusion:

 

The "jib support wagon" is the "runner" or "match wagon".

 

What you have referred to as the "match trucks" are the "relieving bogies" or "Stokes bogies".

 

Precise terminology varied from place to place.

 

This is a useful site for anything to do with these cranes:

 

http://www.bdca.org.uk/index.html

 

Thanks to Craneman and his colleagues for creating and maintaining this site.

Edited by St Enodoc
Acknowledgement added
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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Terminology check, to avoid any ongoing confusion:

 

The "jib support wagon" is the "runner" or "match wagon".

 

What you have referred to as the "match trucks" are the "relieving bogies" or "Stokes bogies".

 

Precise terminology varied from place to place.

 

This is a useful site for anything to do with these cranes:

 

http://www.bdca.org.uk/index.html

Pedant mode on. A wagon which carries the jib is a runner wagon (the jib runs on it), any wagon that is needed between the crane and the runner wagon is a match wagon (it has to match the distance between the jib foot and the runner). Heavy cranes have weight relieving bogies where some of the weight of the crane carriage is jacked onto separate bogies to relieve the weight.  Many breakdown cranes don't have a match wagon because the distance between the jib foot and the runner wagon  is taken up by the relieving  bogie.

 

"Propping girders" are outriggers.

 

Edited by 96701
Added a bit more pedantic detail.
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2 minutes ago, 96701 said:

Pedant mode on. A wagon which carries the jib is a runner wagon (the jib runs on it), any wagon that is needed between the crane and the runner wagon is a match wagon (it has to match the distance between the jib foot and the runner). Heavy cranes have weight relieving bogies where some of the weight of the crane carriage is jacked onto separate bogies to relieve the weight.  Many breakdown cranes don't have a match wagon because the distance between the jib foot and the runner wagon  is taken up by the relieving  bogie.

 

 

Strictly speaking, Phil, you are correct  - but the Brighton crane runner in my earlier post is clearly branded "Match":

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/103522-45-ton-ransomes-crane/&do=findComment&comment=3564609

 

As I say, precise terminology varied from place to place - as it did for many other things too. For example, when I went to work in Scotland it took me quite a while to work out what a "battery end" was..

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14 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Strictly speaking, Phil, you are correct  - but the Brighton crane runner in my earlier post is clearly branded "Match":

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/103522-45-ton-ransomes-crane/&do=findComment&comment=3564609

 

As I say, precise terminology varied from place to place - as it did for many other things too. For example, when I went to work in Scotland it took me quite a while to work out what a "battery end" was..

In which case, it was labelled incorrectly. Trust me. I joined BR when there were still Civil Engineer's steam cranes and it was my job to help people fix them. Before I could do so, I had to research how they should work which meant that I had to read some very old operating manuals and read blueprints. That is where I learned the difference between match and runner wagons, and it all made sense then. Just because some people paint incorrect terminology on things doesn't make it right.

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2 hours ago, 96701 said:

In which case, it was labelled incorrectly. Trust me. I joined BR when there were still Civil Engineer's steam cranes and it was my job to help people fix them. Before I could do so, I had to research how they should work which meant that I had to read some very old operating manuals and read blueprints. That is where I learned the difference between match and runner wagons, and it all made sense then. Just because some people paint incorrect terminology on things doesn't make it right.

I think we're saying the same thing Phil. There's an official name for everything but for historical, local dialect, cultural or other reasons there are often several unofficial ones as well.

 

By the way I remember the steam cranes at Leeman Road too but never worked with them. We only dealt with diesels at Holbeck and Crofton.

 

 

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On the subject of terminology (and pedantry!), does anyone on here know the origin of the term "Warwicking", as in "Warwick screw", etc? The process of "Warwicking" is to anchor the rear (unloaded) side of a crane to a fixed or massive object with chains and bottle screws ("Warwicking screws") to enable loads to be lifted that would otherwise cause the crane to topple. It was in widespread use amongst cranemen, and I had thought that, like so many similar terms, it might be of RN origin. However despite years of on-and-off digging I have never found anything to suggest its origin, and in fact have only found one reference to the term outside the railway breakdown crane arena. It is possible something as mundane as that the term originated because the particular bottle screws were manufactured by the Warwick Screw Company (if there was such a company), or there may be more to it.

 

Regarding the above discussion, I think that firstly one has to accept that many terms are in widespread use in a manner that is technically incorrect. For example, the wagon that supports the lowered jib of a crane is a "jib runner", it is not a "match wagon" or "match truck" though undoubtedly many were labelled thus.

 

A "match wagon" or "match truck" is a vehicle specifically and solely provided to enable two vehicles to be coupled together which for some reason could not otherwise be coupled, so a classic application might be if LU stock was to be moved on BR and the couplings were incompatible, or if a wagon with an overhanging load has to be coupled to another wagon. Therefore a crane such as the CS standard 6-ton and 10-ton hand cranes (as modelled by Triang Hornby), where the jib is supported on the crane itself when at rest, required a match truck if it was to be coupled to anything else in order to provide clearance for the jib. It did not have a jib runner since the jib was supported on the crane.

 

A "Stokes bogie" is a type of "relieving bogie", but the term is only applicable to relieving bogies which employ the Stokes Patent, hence R&R cranes have Stokes Bogies but Cowans Sheldon cranes and Craven Bros cranes do not have Stokes bogies but do have relieving bogies. A relieving bogie is not a match wagon.

 

Finally although strictly all propping girders are a form of outrigger, not all outriggers are propping girders! The term propping girder was widely, indeed almost exclusively, used by railway cranemen, the term outrigger tended to be used by non-rail cranemen and has only really become widespread in recent times. It is interesting to note that amongst the BDCA members and contributors, those who worked for a living with steam breakdown cranes always use the term "propping girder", those who are involved in preservation are more likely to use the term "outrigger". If it is a girder which fits into a girder box it is a propping girder, if it is a hinged outrigger (very rare in Britains but widely used on British-built cranes for overseas railways), then it is an outrigger.

 

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11 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Strictly speaking, Phil, you are correct  - but the Brighton crane runner in my earlier post is clearly branded "Match":

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/103522-45-ton-ransomes-crane/&do=findComment&comment=3564609

 

As I say, precise terminology varied from place to place - as it did for many other things too. For example, when I went to work in Scotland it took me quite a while to work out what a "battery end" was..

The breakdown crane Foreman at Old Oak always referred to it as the runner' - localised usage no doubt as was so common on the railway.  And as for Scottish railway language - it took me a couple of minutes to work out what 'rounding' was during one conversation with an ScR opposite number.

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Sorry, I didn't mean to start a debate on pedantry! Can we just agree that the crane has four elements in contact with the rails: the one with the big sticky-uppy, two small front and back ones and the one that carries the end of the sticky-uppy when it's in the downy position? :jester:

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Livery sample of the BR red version on the stand at the GCR model railway event. Looks great.

 

A question though - would these have run with the departmental yellow coaches that have been available over the last few years ?

IMG_3947.JPG

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Shame its been assembled incorrectly with the Jib runner put round the wrong way and the main crane carriage (correct word?) Also back to front going off the A/B for the relieving bogies.

 

But nice to see there will be a few buffer beam accessories like screw couplings looking at the jib runner/relieving bogie coupling.

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Posted (edited)
On ‎24‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 16:42, Wild Boar Fell said:

 

Looking good, anyone spotted the rookie mistake though?

Jib extended above maximum permitted height judging by the low-flying Vulcan in the background ..................................... ?!

 

Sorry just noticed about a month late with that hilarious witty observation :D

Edited by Southernman46
I'm a cretin
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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Southernman46 said:

Jib extended above maximum permitted height judging by the low-flying Vulcan in the background ..................................... ?!

 

Sorry just noticed about a month late with that hilarious witty observation https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_biggrin.png

Perhaps thats to rescue the jib wagon that falling off the display ?

:huh:

Edited by adb968008

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1-MW-1347.jpg.e41fb8e39907b18567e348a12271a991.jpg

 

In answer to the red/yellow question above, my pic of the Tinsley crane, also with ex LMS BZ in red.

 

Mike.

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On the subject of suitable stock to run with the cranes, what would the Gorton Crane, Bachmann 38-802 have run/be seen with in service.

 

And would anyone happen to know when it received its additional water tank on the rear relieving bogie as per picture below?

IMG_20190526_101807.jpg.3303687f0b195b8f9f9002410d805381.jpg

 

And also where was the standard fit water tank positioned on the cranes?

 

Cheers

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Posted (edited)

I'm not sure exactly when the tank appeared on the RB, but it wasn't there in 1967 and was there by 1980, so was fitted whilst the crane was at Newton Heath (1965 to 1981). It is likely that it would have been fitted in the early 1970s after the demise of steam traction resulted in the need to carry more water (as water cranes became scarce and water could no longer be taken from a loco tender on site). I will dig through my photo collection to try to pin the date down better. The bogie tank has a capacity of 550 gallons.

 

On the R&R 45-tonners there are two water tanks, although on the face of it there appear to be three.

 

The main tank on the crab of the crane has two parts which are piped together and function as a single reservoir. One part is on the right-hand side of the tail (clearly visible in the photo of RS1083 at the Bluebell, above, because it is the bit which hasn't been painted black yet). The other part is a full-width belly tank mounted under the crab, directly under the cabside openings and ahead of the tailweight relieving jacks. These two are plumbed together, the pick up for the injector and the banjo pump are in the belly tank, and both parts are filled through a filler hole at the front of the top surface of the upper part of the tank, just behind the right-hand cabside opening. There is also a steam water-lifter mounted adjacent to the filler opening which is provided for picking up water from either the reserve tank or an external source such as a loco tender. One of several unique features of RS1083 was the addition of a horizontal duplex steam pump on the right-hand side of the crab (under the RH cab opening) which fulfilled a similar purpose to the lifter. The pump was fitted whilst the crane was at Gorton (1943 to 1965), and the reason is no longer clear.  Gorton did however carry out some highly unusual modifications to this particular crane, for reasons which are now lost in time, including an attempt at forced draughting.

 

The reserve tank on the R&R 45-tonner was built into the main carriage, which, since it is naturally a box-like structure holds water rather well. There are two filler holes covered by flat steel plates, one on each side, on the upper surface of the carriage (roughly speaking the two holes are under the jib pins). When water is needed from the reserve tank, it has to be transferred to the main tank on the crab by means of the water lifter, or uniquely in the case of RS1083 the horizontal duplex pump.

 

Edited by craneman
typo
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Thank you for that detailed reply. 

 

The tank being fitted when it was, would the crane not have been Lined Black at the time as per how the model will be?

 

When I inspected crane recently while taking the pictures I notice what I assume to be the feed to the pump bottom right of the tank below the inspection? cover. Would this have been a flexible hose to the pump connected as required?

I found how the vacuum travelled between the vehicle but not how the water got from the tank to the pump. 

Assuming when the crane slews it would need to be long enough not to snag. I understand as it was a depot mod that theres probably no records of this?

 

Shame the records of the modifications seems to have disappeared but I'm just trying to build up a picture of the history other than that documented to aid any detailing I may do to it, for e.g. adding the tank and changing plastic vac pipes for magnetic coupled elastic hoses.

 

Thanks again for that information

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Posted (edited)

It is quite possible that the tank was fitted whilst the crane was still black, but I am not aware of any hard evidence either way. Unfortunately we don't know for sure either when the tank was fitted or when the crane received the red livery at present. It is even possible that the tank was fitted at the same time as the crane was painted.

 

I have attached some crudely annotated photos which show the locations of the various parts under discussion. I suspect that the pipe you mention (from the lower front tank washout/inspection cover to the duplex pump) is the deliver pipe from the pump into the tank, but since this fitting is unique and totally non-standard I'd have to inspect the crane to say for certain. I believe that the duplex pump has a quick-release fitting for a suction hose in a similar fashion to the standard water lifter.

 

The method of operation would be that when the crane is working, water is being drawn by either the injector or the banjo feed pump and supplied to the boiler from the upper tanks (on the rotating crab) and not from the carriage tank or other external source. When the upper tanks are getting low, then the suction hose would be attached to the water lifter (or, in the unique case of RS1083, the horizontal duplex pump) and the upper tank would be replenished. It would not be normal for the crane to be operating while this happens. When the tank is full, the suction hose is removed and operation of the crane resumes. Unfortunately I don't seem to have a photo of this operation in progress (usually my hands are too filthy by this time to use a camera)! 

 

It is clear from photographic evidence that the horizontal duplex pump on RS1083 was originally fitted whilst the crane was at Gorton (in the lined black era) in a different location, it was in the cabside opening directly ahead of the banjo pump, and again it is not known when it was moved to its current location. It would have made it exceptionally difficult to get in or out of the right-hand side of the cab in its original location (it isn't easy at the best of times)!

 

Remember that the banjo pump and the injector (and there is only a single injector on these cranes) are boiler feed devices. The water lifter, and on RS1083 only, the horizontal duplex pump, are tank filling devices.

 

I am not sure exactly what you mean by "...how the vacuum travelled between the vehicle..." (if you mean the vacuum brakes, the crane, relieving bogies and jib runner were generally all through-piped, at least later in life, with standard vac hose couplers).

 

 

RS1083 annotated 0.jpg

RS1083 annotated 1.jpg

RS1083 annotated 2.jpg

Edited by craneman
Another typo, dammit!
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Thanks again for that raft of information and images. It very interesting learning about the history and operation of these beasts. I shall keep all this handy for when the model arrives.

 

Yes I did mean the vacuum train pipe. I worked out how it is piped from looking around the crane. But with the limited knowledge I had on the day I photographed it I didn't know anything about the water tanks on it so you've helped greatly there.

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Interestingly going back over images of the models from the exhibition cabinets I noticed for the first time that there is a spring at the base of the jib (circled). I don't think this has been picked up on previously here.

IMG_20190617_100032.jpg.9b4a6e63f846aa600402c839654c9d25.jpg

Apologies I don't know the original photographer, only that it was posted here a while back.

 

This spring must be a way to help keep the rigging under tension by trying keeping downwards pressure on the jib.

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Yes, the spring is there because the jib is not intrinsically heavy enough to keep the rigging tight.The prototype doesn't have this particular problem!

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8 hours ago, craneman said:

Yes, the spring is there because the jib is not intrinsically heavy enough to keep the rigging tight.The prototype doesn't have this particular problem!

 

Here we go, wait for the "it's only made of plastic?, it should be made of Osmium, I can't accept a spring on a £200 plus model" brigade to hitch up their horses!

 

Mike.

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Ive no issues with it, really.  I understand a diecast jib would be preferable to some but less so on the price so its a good compromise on Bachmann's side. Probably one of the fee compromises they've had to make really.

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14 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Here we go, wait for the "it's only made of plastic?, it should be made of Osmium, I can't accept a spring on a £200 plus model" brigade to hitch up their horses!

 

Mike.

Hi Mike,

 

My cheap nasty home made rubbish cranes have plasticard jibs but I ram-jam pack the jib heads with lead because it is cheaper than Osmium which is currently £319/OZT.

 

Gibbo.

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1 hour ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Mike,

 

My cheap nasty home made rubbish cranes have plasticard jibs but I ram-jam pack the jib heads with lead because it is cheaper than Osmium which is currently £319/OZT.

 

Gibbo.

 

My home made cranes have a piece of phosphor-bronze pick-up strip inserted between the carriage and jib foot. It does the same job as the Bachmann spring, but is less visually intrusive.

 

This may be the one amendment that I make to my Bachmann crane once it is delivered.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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