Glasgow - Edinburgh push pull stock for class 27

[ColinK]

I'm thinking of putting together a Glasgow - Edinburgh push pull class 27 hauled set for my 00 layout. I'm seeking assistance over the best coaches to use.

 

As I understand it, the sets comprised four Mk2A TSO's, one Mk2A FK and one Mk2A BSO.

 

So could I form a set using the following RTR coaches,

TSO - Bachmann TSO ref 39-360C

FK - Bachmann FK ref 39-340A

BSO - Bachmann BSO ref 39-380A

 

Many thanks.

[Flood]

Strictly speaking you would need four Mk2 TSOs, one Mk2 FK and one Mk2 BSO. Please note they are not the Mk2A version (exceptions below).

 

TSO - 39-350 or 39-351

FK - 39-330

BSO - 39-370 or 39-371

 

BR converted Mk2 vacuum braked stock to disc braked air-brake stock for these services. Therefore you need the Bachmann Mk2 model (also known as Mk2S or Mk2Z) which has the sliding end door in the corridor connection. However the vacuum brake gear needs to be removed, as do the brake blocks, and an air brake distributor needs to be added to the underframe. As an aside I had a quick look when I modelled some of these for Aberdeen Kirkhill and thought that the air-brake distributors resembled the later air-con style rather than those on the Mk2A stock. Therefore I used those from scrap Airfix air-con chassis'.

 

You could use Mk2A stock for the TSO and BSO coaches but the corridor connection doors would be incorrect. Swapping the two types over is not easy (I've tried it, the connector itself is a slightly different moulding and they are a pain to take off) but it may be possible to fabricate a dummy sliding door.  I'm not sure how much of the brake rigging would be needed with the actual stock being disc braked. The Mk2 FK had totally different windows to the Mk2A FK (three sliding vents instead of two) and Mk1 style corridor connections.

 

A small number of Mk2A TSOs were also converted to complement the Mk2 stock (5391, 5392 and 5395).

 

The Mk2A FK stock based in Scotland (13434, 13435, 13436 and 13437) had been converted to vacuum brakes in 1976/77 so were not used in the push-pull rakes.

 

Sadly Bachmann have not reissued their Mk2 vacuum brake stock since the initial release in 2003 apart from the Mk2 FK. However using the Mk2 FK with modified Mk2A TSO and BSO coaches could produce a reasonable rake.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Flood

[ColinK]

Many thanks Flood. So its not quite so easy to make an accurate rake, But I should be able to make a reasonable job of it. Cheers.

[ColinK]

Many thanks 65288_62C, especially for the branding info. I haven't got my sldes back from storage at a friends house (after moving), so I wasn't sure whether the coaches were Scotrail or InterCity.

 

My new layout is more generic than Scotrail, but I'm aiming to model reasonably accuratly trains I particularly accuratly. Couldn't resist the thought of a push pull set storming up the gradient with a DCC sound fitted 27 at each end. Hopefully my mate will let me run it on his garden railway too.

[mjkerr]

I would doubt the coaches had Scotrail text applied whilst operated with Class 27, as the DBSO did not have this text until Class 47/7 had been in operation for about 2 years

[keefer]

would be 'Inter-City' i.e. what was current for the time - no special designations during the cl.27 p-p era

 

Scotrail or ScotRail only existed from about '84/'85(?), under the directorship of Chris Green

[mjkerr]

would be 'Inter-City' i.e. what was current for the time - no special designations during the cl.27 p-p era

Also included un-branded / de-branded

There are loads of photos of the Class 27 locos with these rakes, and whilst most of the coaches had "Inter-City", de-branding had already started

 

See this :

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/57319-class-27-push-pulls-1970s/page-3&do=findComment&comment=713812

 

As as aside, the coaches also had blue star multiple working jumpers, which were later removed when Class 47/7 locos started operations

See :

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/91080-class-27-push-pull/?p=1615842

 

Edited January 3, 2016 by mjkerr

[Bob Reid]

Do you have any evidence ie. can you point to photographs of de-branded? E&G Mk2's whilst still in original Push-Pull service?  

[ColinK]

Thanks for all the useful info folks. I have been through the previous thread but it didn't give all the info I need to make my model.

[Scottish Modeller]

Do you have any evidence ie. can you point to photographs of de-branded? E&G Mk2's whilst still in original Push-Pull service?  

HI Bob,

 

The only photos I found were on Fotopic.

 

Not found them again since Fotopic went down - but would like to!

 

Thanks

[Bob Reid]

Thanks Phil.  I don't recall any - of course not that it means they don't exist.  When transferred to the ScR none of the Mk2's should have had Inter-City on them however the ScR board insisted that as it was an Inter-City service and despite the BRB's protestations they were all to be lettered a such and the GM was fairly strict about it's application on any E&G vehicles throughout their life on the route.  This photo by Brian Daniels shows a shortly to be ex-works E&G FK in 1979 just as they had been outshopped in 1971  

https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/5837144002/sizes/l

Edited January 3, 2016 by Bob-65b

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi Bob,

 

Memory may be playing tricks on me.

 

I'm sure that one of the photos was taken across Eastfield towards the main lines with the train visible for it's full length coming from Edinburgh.

 

What struck me was the 4th coach from the Glasgow end appeared to have no marking where I could see the InterCity markings on the other coaches.

 

I will have saved the photo - which PC and hard drive though!

 

Thanks

[tractor_37260]

Good stuff ! Most of the queries i had on an ongoing 27 PP project answered in one thread !

Got the locos and a full early MK2s rake just got to sort out the 27/1 and 27/2 differences and the coach underframe equipment.

 

Sound by the legoman in due course !!

[GordonC]

would be 'Inter-City' i.e. what was current for the time - no special designations during the cl.27 p-p era

 

Scotrail or ScotRail only existed from about '84/'85(?), under the directorship of Chris Green

 

When did the Scotrail or ScotRail start getting used? I'm pretty sure the coaches in the pictures of the Polmont crash in 1984 had 'Intercity Scotrail' branding on Blue and Grey stock

[Flood]

When did the Scotrail or ScotRail start getting used? I'm pretty sure the coaches in the pictures of the Polmont crash in 1984 had 'Intercity Scotrail' branding on Blue and Grey stock

It was first noted in the June 1984 Railway Observer where the following was quoted:

 

"In addition, since the beginning of the year,

many northern Scottish coaches (and some

noted in Central Scotland) have had vinyl Scot-

rail stickers applied as a fleetname. Again, no

reports had been received from Scotland until

late April when SC4205, 4704/74, 4909/15/6,

5082/91, 5132/43/8/51/5/70/4/91/6, 5201/7/12/21/

7, 9003/7/12, 9364, 9415 were noted with this

adornment."

 

Please note that there was no use of the hyphen in the fleetname carried by the stock, this is just how the text was presented. The use of ScotRail came a little later, I don't think any of the repaints ever carried anything but ScotRail. Certainly by the time I went to Scotland in July 1985 there were only one or two blue and grey coaches still stating Scotrail, all the others had been rebranded to ScotRail.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Flood

[tractor_37260]

When did the Scotrail or ScotRail start getting used? I'm pretty sure the coaches in the pictures of the Polmont crash in 1984 had 'Intercity Scotrail' branding on Blue and Grey stock

 

Not sure when they were first applied, but at least one DBSO -  9706 in Blue/Grey had Inter-City Scotrail brandings, also noted a MK3 Blue/Grey Sleeper at Glas QS with Inter-City Scotrail branding

Edited January 12, 2016 by Andy Y
Copyright images removed - please use links and do not copy/upload.

[ColinK]

Many thanks for posting the coach photos. I hadn't realised that there was a 'Inter City Scotrail' logo.

[robertcwp]

Here is the DBSO that was involved in the Polmont accident:

 

Sc9706_Edinburgh_13-4-84 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[67A]

HI Colin,

 

Best of luck with the project, you may have some luck getting some coaches from S&J Models in Northwich, I saw several with Inter-City branding a few weeks ago. www.sandjmodelrailways.co.uk

 

I worked on the Glasgow Works Class 27 conversions, as an aside these were hand-painted BR Blue whereas the Derby lot were spray-painted! I was an apprentice fitter at the time.

 

Edited to add some text

Edited January 16, 2016 by mike61680

[67A]

Hi Colin,

 

Apologies, just noticed I missed the 'd' out of S&J's website, now corrected.

[ColinK]

Hi,

 

The most difficult job in converting the locos seems to be adding the extra grills. I'm thinking of getting some etched brass ones made, but to do this I needs some good photographs of the actual grills together with the dimensions. Does anyone know where I can get such pictures and measuremens?

[Waveydavey]

Brian Hanson at Shawplan has the 27/2 grills measured up and has them in the 'to do' pile.

 

The more people ask him about them the sooner they'll appear.

[ColinK]

I am currently working on a pair of 27s for my push pull train.

 

I know the 27/2s had extra pipes on one side of the underframe for the remote fire extinguisher system.  Did the 27/1s have these pipes too?

[keefer]

I thought the orange conduit (well, when clean) was for the remote fire suppression system so would be on the 27/1s

But looking at photos, it might've been for the ETH, so 27/2 only.

Pic showing both sides of 27/1:

https://railphotoprints.uk/p582944081/h5b84949e 

shows no conduit.

Class 27/2:

https://railphotoprints.uk/p582944081/h349847e7

Shows conduit (I was mis-remembering that it was thicker/more obvious)

As you said, on one side only:

https://railphotoprints.uk/p582944081/h280660a0

Conduit missing

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by keefer

[45125]

14 hours ago, keefer said:

I thought the orange conduit (well, when clean) was for the remote fire suppression system so would be on the 27/1s

But looking at photos, it might've been for the ETH, so 27/2 only.

Pic showing both sides of 27/1:

https://railphotoprints.uk/p582944081/h5b84949e 

shows no conduit.

Class 27/2:

https://railphotoprints.uk/p582944081/h349847e7

Shows conduit (I was mis-remembering that it was thicker/more obvious)

As you said, on one side only:

https://railphotoprints.uk/p582944081/h280660a0

Conduit missing

 

Always thought that extra conduit above the battery box fuel tank was the additional conduit for the auto fire system and the one at the cabs was for the ETH interlock circuit.