C&L Finescale

[martin_wynne]

I said in “ certain “ cases you may have wheel drop , and you will experience wheel drop on DOGA intermediate from certain RTR wheels

 

Which ones? Which RTR models use wheels narrower that RP25/110?

 

I would suggest that if RTR wheels are dropping into crossings, those crossings have not been built compliant with the DOGA-Intermediate standard. It is not physically possible for an object 2.8mm wide to fall into a gap narrower than 2.8mm.

 

Martin.

[Junctionmad]

Which ones? Which RTR models use wheels narrower that RP25/110?

 

I would suggest that if RTR wheels are dropping into crossings, those crossings have not been built compliant with the DOGA-Intermediate standard. It is not physically possible for an object 2.8mm wide to fall into a gap narrower than 2.8mm.

 

Martin.

I believe , certainly from looking at them that some modern rtr offerings like accurascale seem to have very narrow threads

[martin_wynne]

I believe , certainly from looking at them that some modern rtr offerings like accurascale seem to have very narrow threads

 

Hi Dave,

 

I have just checked the Accurascale web site, and found this info for the Powder Wagon specs:

 

3-hole disc wheels on metal axles, RP25/110 profile sets with 14.4mm back to backs , see: https://accurascale.co.uk/products/apcm-cemflo-pcv-powder-wagon-single-pack-apcm8594

 

Which is spot-on for compliance with the DOGA-Intermediate standard (and also just right for 00-SF, but won't run on DOGA-Fine).

 

If you are aware of any Accurascale RTR models with finer wheels than this, I need to know so that I can update some of my web pages and the notes in Templot. But it seems unlikely that they would use different wheel standards for different models.

 

Part of the 00 problem is the constant battle needed against posted misinformation.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Accurascale Fran]

Our wagon wheels are RP25/110.

 

Cheers!

 

Fran

[YesTor]

2. DOGA introduced a Fine 00 standard which required wheel back-to-backs to be modified, and worse than that C&L supplied gauges to this standard in their 00 track kits without telling users that they wouldn't work with RTR wheels as supplied.

 

None of these issues need affect anyone if they 1. stick to using RTR wheels, and 2. build track using the DOGA-Intermediate gauges (available from DOGA) or 00-BF gauges (available from Markits), and 3. don't go anywhere near DOGA-Fine.

 

That way they won't be frightened off from trying handbuilt 00 track, and it will work.

 

Martin.

 

 

If you use the Markits gauges on 16.5mm, the RTR models will be fine. But those with kit wheels are likely to be bumpy running through the crossings (frogs).

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

I'm just reading this thread with great interest having just purchased my first C&L turnout kit.  Having read the above comments and particularly, "and worse than that C&L supplied gauges to this standard in their 00 track kits without telling users that they wouldn't work with RTR wheels as supplied" , am I correct in thinking that I should not be using the C&L gauge as supplied with my kit and instead purchasing Markit's 00-BF gauges?

 

thank you kindly...

Al

[hayfield]

I'm just reading this thread with great interest having just purchased my first C&L turnout kit.  Having read the above comments and particularly, "and worse than that C&L supplied gauges to this standard in their 00 track kits without telling users that they wouldn't work with RTR wheels as supplied" , am I correct in thinking that I should not be using the C&L gauge as supplied with my kit and instead purchasing Markit's 00-BF gauges?

 

thank you kindly...

Al

 

Al

 

The standard 16.5 mm gauge is fine, the additional wing/check rail gauges are wrong. depending on which kit you have bought (with or without a ready built common crossing) 

 

If you have the kit with the common crossing, you just need to buy a check rail gauge, if you dont have a ready built common crossing then you need a wing rail gauge , which hapens to be a flat bar of the required thickness

[YesTor]

Al

 

The standard 16.5 mm gauge is fine, the additional wing/check rail gauges are wrong. depending on which kit you have bought (with or without a ready built common crossing) 

 

If you have the kit with the common crossing, you just need to buy a check rail gauge, if you dont have a ready built common crossing then you need a wing rail gauge , which hapens to be a flat bar of the required thickness

 

Okay, thanks...  I have the ready-built common crossing. 

 

"The standard 16.5 mm gauge is fine, the additional wing/check rail gauges are wrong."   Hmmmm, okay, but instead of buying a separate check rail gauge I could simply purchase a Markit's gauge and discard the C&L gauge, right?  Or is there some reason why I need to keep the C&L gauge? 

 

(Apologies for my complete ignorance as I am totally new to trackbuilding and have been giving myself a slight migraine for most of the day trying to get my head around it all) 

 

Oh yeah, on further thinking and having read much of this topic it seems I might actually be better off forgetting all of the above and actually making the points to 00-SF?   And if so is it okay to have the flexi-track that is attached to 00 (16.5mm)?  Maybe I should mention that one of my aims is smoother running as well as visible/cosmetic improvement.

 

thanks

Al

Edited September 9, 2018 by YesTor

[martin_wynne]

I'm just reading this thread with great interest having just purchased my first C&L turnout kit.  Having read the above comments and particularly, "and worse than that C&L supplied gauges to this standard in their 00 track kits without telling users that they wouldn't work with RTR wheels as supplied" , am I correct in thinking that I should not be using the C&L gauge as supplied with my kit and instead purchasing Markit's 00-BF gauges?

 

Hi Al,

 

We need more information:

 

1. are C&L even now still including the DOGA-Fine gauges in their turnout kits?

 

2. does your kit include a ready-assembled V-crossing (frog)?

 

3. do you want to run unmodified RTR models?

 

The C&L ready-assembled V-crossings have 1.0mm flangeways. If you want to use it and don't want to modify RTR models, your ONLY option is 00-SF. Discard the DOGA-Fine gauges (if that is what you have) or return them to C&L in exchange for 00-SF gauges. If everyone did this, C&L might finally get the message.

 

Alternatively you could build it to DOGA-Intermediate or 00-BF. In that case you need to discard the ready-assembled V-crossing, and on the DOGA-Fine gauges use the outer slots only. Use Markits gauges or DOGA gauges for the rest.

 

Starting from a C&L kit I would strongly recommend going for 00-SF. However, every time I say that, someone from DOGA pops up to argue against it.

 

You could of course build it exactly as supplied with the V-crossing and gauges, to the DOGA-Fine standard. In that case you would need to modify your RTR wheels by widening the back-to-back. Do the instructions now make this clear?

 

regards,

 

Martin.

Edited September 9, 2018 by martin_wynne

[YesTor]

Hi Al,

 

We need more information:

 

1. are C&L even now still including the DOGA-Fine gauges in their turnout kits?

 

2. does your kit include a ready-assembled V-crossing (frog)?

 

3. do you want to run unmodified RTR models?

 

The C&L ready-assembled V-crossings have 1.0mm flangeways. If you want to use it and don't want to modify RTR models, your ONLY option is 00-SF. Discard the DOGA-Fine gauges (if that is what you have) or return them to C&L in exchange for 00-SF gauges. If everyone did this, C&L might finally get the message.

 

Alternatively you could build it to DOGA-Intermediate or 00-BF. In that case you need to discard the ready-assembled V-crossing, and on the DOGA-Fine gauges use the outer slots only. Use Markits gauges or DOGA gauges for the rest.

 

Starting from a C&L kit I would strongly recommend going for 00-SF. However, every time I say that, someone from DOGA pops up to argue against it.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

Hi Martin

 

Thanks for your reply.  Okay...

 

1. are C&L even now still including the DOGA-Fine gauges in their turnout kits? 

    

   >>  Unfortunately, this being my first kit purchase and a total newbie I am unable to clarify, as I only became of this apparent issue after reading this topic.

    

2. does your kit include a ready-assembled V-crossing (frog)? 

    

   >>  Yes

    

3. do you want to run unmodified RTR models? 

    

   >> Yes.  I am quite excited about building my first turnout, but to be honest I do not really wish to have to modify wheelsets, although of course having the option of being able to run finer wheelsets if I so choose at any future time would naturally be a bonus.

I do not really wish to discard the V-crossing from the kit as that would mean building a new one from scratch and for the time being at least I would rather master the kit as it is.  In which case from what you say I might as well build the turnout to 00-SF, and then the subsequent straight/flexi-track to 16.5mm?

 

thanks

Al

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by YesTor

[martin_wynne]

Hi Martin

 

Thanks for your reply.  Okay...

 

1. are C&L even now still including the DOGA-Fine gauges in their turnout kits? 

    

   >>  Unfortunately, this being my first kit purchase and a total newbie I am unable to clarify, as I only became of this apparent issue after reading this topic.

    

2. does your kit include a ready-assembled V-crossing (frog)? 

    

   >>  Yes

    

3. do you want to run unmodified RTR models? 

    

   >> Yes.  I am quite excited about building my first turnout, but to be honest I do not really wish to have to modify wheelsets, although of course having the option of being able to run finer wheelsets if I so choose at any future time would naturally be a bonus.

I do not really wish to discard the V-crossing from the kit as that would mean building a new one from scratch and for the time being at least I would rather master the kit as it is.  In which case from what you say I might as well build the turnout to 00-SF, and then the subsequent straight/flexi-track to 16.5mm?

 

 

Hi Al,

 

It's so difficult to get up-to-date definitive information.

 

The C&L DOGA-Fine gauges are made of steel and look like this:

But the web site says they are out of stock. There is no way of knowing if the web site is correct at present.

 

The 00-SF gauges are, or used to be, made of brass and look like this:

    

If you want to use the assembled V-crossing and unmodified RTR models the only option is 00-SF, so you need to order those gauges. Yes, many users of 00-SF use 16.5mm flexi-track. The best way to make the transition is to connect the flexi-track to the 16.2mm 00-SF turnout with rail joiners (the Peco bullhead ones), and then gently warm the rail ends with a soldering iron so that the end few chairs soften and adjust to the reduced 16.2mm gauge.

 

You may want to keep the DOGA-Fine gauges to assist in making the transition to 16.5mm -- using the outer slots in the gauge only.

 

Don't read this if you don't want to get confused -- I'm writing it only because if I don't someone will pop up to point it out -- In theory you could use the assembled crossings in conjunction with the 00-SF check gauges (the right-hand picture above), but use the 16.5mm DOGA-Fine gauges for the running rails only. That would create asymmetrical flangeways having 1.0mm at the crossing, and 1.3mm at the check rail. It would work, but I don't recommend it because a) it would look odd, and b) if you later get involved in more complex pointwork it will cause problems. Better to start as you mean to go on, and use 00-SF for the whole turnout.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Lecorbusier]

When I first started reading up about track building ahead of my first foray into the 'dark art' I found reading this thread both helpful and inspirational

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/3422-eastwood-town-where-did-10-years-go/page-1&do=findComment&comment=25053

 

It also happens to be 00-FS. It might be worth a skim read .... there is a fair amount of practical discussion and input about turnout construction.

[Buhar]

DCC Concepts also do OO-SF gauges if C&L are out of stock.

 

All manufacturers of gauges for track or b2b should mark the item with its critical dimension(s). Just saying OO doesn't really help.

[hayfield]

Al

 

It would be wise to use the ready built common crossing as this is the most difficult assembly to make yourself, and will work fine with almost all new RTR stock and kitbuilt items

 

As Martin said buy some 00sf gauges, either from C&L or DCC concepts (if the latter buy the bullhead code 75 version not the flatbottom code 82)

 

If building a stand alone turnout my own preference is to build to 00sf gauge through the common crossing area, then flaring it out to 00 (16.5) where it joins to plain track. Martin prefers to build the turnout to 16.2 mm gauge and flare the flexitrack (between 5 & 10 sleepers) where it joins the turnout. Either way works fine

 

If you are going to Scaleforum go to the C&L stand where I will be assisting Phil over the weekend and happy to chat you through it

[martin_wynne]

If building a stand alone turnout my own preference is to build to 00sf gauge through the common crossing area, then flaring it out to 00 (16.5) where it joins to plain track. Martin prefers to build the turnout to 16.2 mm gauge and flare the flexitrack

 

Hi Al,

 

Note that if you build the switch area (the moving point blades section) to 16.5mm, my standard advice for 00-SF and EM to use a 20p coin to space the open blade at the tip no longer applies. Use something a bit thicker, such as a 10p coin, for 16.5mm gauge.

 

Note also to set the stock gauge accordingly. If using a caliper to measure it, the stock gauge is 17.4mm for 16.5mm gauge (17.1mm for 00-SF, 19.1mm for EM). More about setting the stock gauge: http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=491&forum_id=1

 

Martin.

[PenrithBeacon]

It is unfair on C&L that non-C&L matters are discussed on this thread. I think there should be a separate thread for discussion on track and wheels standards.

Edited September 10, 2018 by PenrithBeacon

[martin_wynne]

It is unfair on C&L that non-C&L matters are discussed on this thread. I think there should be a separate thread for discussion on track and wheels standards.

 

This is RMweb, not a forum on the C&L web site. We can discuss whatever we like within the rules.

 

In this case we are currently discussing C&L matters -- the contents of C&L turnout kits.

 

Martin.

[Oldddudders]

It is unfair on C&L that non-C&L matters are discussed on this thread. I think there should be a separate thread for discussion on track and wheels standards.

It is my casual observation that any thread about hand-built track invariably includes robust discussion of track and wheel standards.

[sharris]

It is my casual observation that any thread about hand-built track invariably includes robust discussion of track and wheel standards.

 

To let one thread about hand built track degenerate into an endless discussion of track and wheel standards may be regarded as a misfortune,

to let both looks like carelessness. 

[martin_wynne]

This is a topic about C&L, suppliers of trackbuilding components for various track standards. What were you expecting a topic about C&L to be about?

 

Here's a nice video which isn't about trackbuilding, and should keep anyone quiet for a while:

 

 

Martin.

[YesTor]

Hi Al,

 

It's so difficult to get up-to-date definitive information.

 

The C&L DOGA-Fine gauges are made of steel and look like this:

    

 

Hi Martin

 

Thank you kindly for your detailed responses which have indeed helped very much to clarify things.  I have the steel gauges (as above) which were packaged inside the turnout kit, so it does indeed look as though I'll need to buy a set for 00-SF.  Looking at the 00-SF gauges at DCC Concepts and my question is, do I still need a separate gauge for the checkrail, or is it incorporated into the gauge by use of the inner grooves?  See photo...  https://www.dccconcepts.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/DCG-RGBHSFOO-content-w.png

 

And why is one gauge shaped differently to the other?

 

thanks

Al

Edited September 10, 2018 by YesTor

[YesTor]

Note also to set the stock gauge accordingly. If using a caliper to measure it, the stock gauge is 17.4mm for 16.5mm gauge (17.1mm for 00-SF, 19.1mm for EM). More about setting the stock gauge: http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=491&forum_id=1

 

 

Hmmm, interesting, I had assumed that the curved stockrail was a smooth curve, and there doesn't seem to be any mention of this in the C&L instructions.  Is it essential to form the curved stockrail in this way, ie. with the deliberate 'kink' in the rail and dead straight followed by curved section?  What are the implications if this step is not carried out during construction?

 

Sorry for so many questions but I can imagine this to perhaps be quite an integral part of the construction?

 

thanks

Al

Edited September 10, 2018 by YesTor

[YesTor]

If you are going to Scaleforum go to the C&L stand where I will be assisting Phil over the weekend and happy to chat you through it

 

Thank you kindly, although sadly I won't be at Scaleforum.  However, I will be at Warley, so hopefully if Phil or yourself are around I will say hello 

[martin_wynne]

Hmmm, interesting, I had assumed that the curved stockrail was a smooth curve, and there doesn't seem to be any mention of this in the C&L instructions.  Is it essential to form the curved stockrail in this way, ie. with the deliberate 'kink' in the rail and dead straight followed by curved section?  What are the implications if this step is not carried out during construction?

 

Sorry for so many questions but I can imagine this to perhaps be quite an integral part of the construction?

 

Hi Al,

 

It is indeed an essential feature of construction, corresponding to the prototype. Without a "set" in the diverging stock rail, it is impossible to create a switch (a set of points) with correct gauge through both roads. Here is a picture of the set (bend) on the prototype:

 

Thanks to Mick Nicholson for this pic of an LNER switch.

 

You can see how the set in the stock rail allows the switch blade to lie against it with the running edge in correct alignment.

 

If you are saying the C&L instructions make no mention of this, I'm astonished. You do wonder if C&L actually want their customers to make a success of their first turnout, and become regular customers.

 

If the C&L template doesn't show the position of the set, you may want to discard it and print one using Templot (which does). This will also adjust the overall length of it to better suit the 00-SF (4-SF) track gauge. It's easy to print a single template from Templot, see this video:

 

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=uHfRyKwVkl1qfdzC5Az3HA2

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

Looking at the 00-SF gauges at DCC Concepts and my question is, do I still need a separate gauge for the checkrail, or is it incorporated into the gauge by use of the inner grooves?  See photo...  https://www.dccconcepts.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/DCG-RGBHSFOO-content-w.png

 

And why is one gauge shaped differently to the other?

 

Hi Al,

   

This above is the 00-SF track gauge from C&L. It is used to set the running rails 16.2mm apart. They are supplied in a set of 2.

    

This above is the 00-SF check gauge from C&L. It is used to set each check rail 15.2mm from the opposite running rail. They are also supplied in a set of 2. (I don't know why one picture shows 2 gauges and the other only one of them. All part of the C&L plan to confuse folks.)

 

• This check gauge is far and away the most important gauge in creating pointwork. If you are only able to get one set, get a set of these.

 

This is how the gauges are used:

The check gauge is so important that some track-builders set the check rails from the V-crossing first, before adding the stock rails. Where the check gauge won't fit over the nose of the vee, it is rotated so that the flat part rests on top of the vee, and the gauge is then held against the side of the vee.

 

You can see that the check gauges and track gauges are used separately without getting in the way of each other. If the V-crossing is in sharply curved track, some gauge-widening can be allowed on the running rail, without affecting the check rail which must remain in its normal position from the opposite rail.

 

The DCC Concepts multi-slot 00-SF gauges have combined check gauges and track gauges. This makes them 10 times more troublesome to use. If there is a problem with one of the rails, it is all but impossible to find out which one using such multi-slot gauges. And impossible to allow any gauge-widening. However they are a popular traditional design in the model trade for 00 gauges.

 

Here again below is the explanation of the dimensioning. Using a ready-assembled V-crossing, the 1.0mm crossing flangeway gap B has already been set for you. At least I assume that's what what you meant when you said the V-crossings were ready assembled, like this:

   

and not just the vee? If the latter is in fact the case, and you are required to fit the wing rails yourself, scrub my previous remarks about your options for the track standards. You can use any.

 

 

A is the check gauge. It is the most critical dimension in pointwork. If this dimension is too small, wheels running from left to right can hit the nose of the vee and very likely derail, or at least bump. If this dimension is too large, the wheel backs will bind or jam on the check rail. To make sure it's correct, the check rail is set using check gauge tools. For 00-SF (4-SF) and 00-BF this dimension should be 15.2mm. You can use the same check gauge tools for both these standards (they are both running the same wheels).

 

B is the crossing flangeway gap. It's also important. If this dimension is too small, the wheel backs will bind or jam on the wing rail. If this dimension is too large, the gap in front of the nose of the vee will be too wide, and the wheels may drop into it with a bump. This gap is set using a small piece of metal shim called a crossing flangeway gauge shim. For 00-SF (4-SF) it should be 1.0mm thick. For 00-BF it should be 1.3mm thick.

 

C is the track gauge. It shouldn't be less than the specified dimension, but it can be wider. It is often widened on sharply curved track to ease the running of long-wheelbase vehicles. The track gauge is normally set using roller gauge tools, or alternatively using a 3-point gauge tool, which automatically widens the track gauge on sharp curves. For 00-SF (4-SF) this dimension shouldn't be less than 16.2mm. For 00-BF it is normally 16.5mm.

 

D is the check rail gap. The width of this gap doesn't matter, providing it is wider than the wheel flanges. It's whatever you end up with after setting A and C correctly.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Izzy]

Hmmm, interesting, I had assumed that the curved stockrail was a smooth curve, and there doesn't seem to be any mention of this in the C&L instructions.  Is it essential to form the curved stockrail in this way, ie. with the deliberate 'kink' in the rail and dead straight followed by curved section?  What are the implications if this step is not carried out during construction?

 

Sorry for so many questions but I can imagine this to perhaps be quite an integral part of the construction?

 

thanks

Al

It might help to understand, if you don’t already, that switches/blades come in a range of sizes/types, the most common classified by there planing angle, I.e. A,B,C etc. A wide number can be used in Templot if needed. The ‘set’ put into the diverging stock rail along with it’s subsequent straight length is to match this planing so the blade sits properly against the stock rail. A blades have the sharpest angle at 1:24, B’s are 1:32. These are the most commonly used in general model track work, C/D/E getting progressively shallower and longer. Turnouts are usually classified as say A5/A6/A7 or B6/B7/B8 etc, the second numeral being the crossing angle. The curvature between the crossing and blades will thus vary depending on the combination used.

 

Izzy