New West Midlands Franchise - Standing Room Only?

['CHARD]

No different to now where down freights have to cross over to get to/from it. It wouldn't preclude freight traffic using the "fast" lines if necessary for access etc.

Currently Westbound/down freights have to cross from the down slow to the down fast and then the up fast to access the Sutton line.

There's a similar arrangement for the other spur

 

Making it a true 4 track up-down-up-down just separates most freight and passenger without the current conflict at Water Orton.

 

Keith

 

Thanks Keith - ironically I'm at work but haven't got the Red Quail to hand!!!

[TheSignalEngineer]

Some of the proposals seem to be putting back what was undone years ago

 

e.g. Barnt Green & Water Orton Junctions.

 

The layout around Water Orton is a mess with only the Up Derby & Down Whitacre being clear, The Down Derby shares a platform face with the Up Whitacre.

IMHO a suggestion could be that the 4 tracks from Saltley to Water Orton could be separated from North to South into e.g. Derby lines Up - Down & Whitacre Lines Up - Down with freight traffic confined to the southern pair straight from/to the Camp Hill route

At Water Orton the platforms would be on the Derby lines only with a crossover at the eastern end for passenger traffic requiring the Whitacre Line.

 

Keith

Water Orton was a right mess. I was involved in the NE-SW route improvements in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Our original plan was to put the Derby lines to the North of the layout and the Nuneaton lines to the south with a new platform on the Down Nuneaton line. To get the required speeds towards Derby would also have required going across part of the car park at the Dog public house.

Basically BR had run out of cash so we had to make the best of a bad job. The Down Goods span of bridge 118 at Water Orton West had also been undermined by river scour and was in danger of collapse. We just had to try to make something of it to keep the railway running.

[roundhouse]

Not really - DafT's real interest is in saving money.  Trains with fewer seats are cheaper so they duly proclaim they have to take account of peak period standing and omit seats or severely reduce the number of seats on new build trains where they can play their money saving con trick.

 

So they effectively plant the cart in front of the horse and it could result in driving away off-peak passengers and thus making the peak problem even worse in terms of the numbers difference between peak and off-peak.  What the silly s*ds can't get into their heads is that the situation is the other way round, for example Reading, Didcot and now Swindon have built up increasing peak period loadings because they offer a good service of high quality very fast trains into London.  In other words the trains that have the qualities to attract and secure off-peak business and leisure travel, in a very competive situation have also attracted peak hour travel because of those very qualities.  Ignore the qualities that attract people other than commuters and you start to disappoint, and lose an important, and usually very profitable market, especially where competition is keen.

 

The answer where line and station capacity allow are to run more and/or longer trains although often that isn't possible, except at considerable cost, so you adopt the other course and try to smooth your peaks by price.  Equally if you do introduce additional or longer trains they have to be marketable because if they aren't you will lose off-peak market share.  BR understood such things - idiot Civil Servants very clearly don't.

We have that today now on GTR. Our Thameslink service (we often use when Southern drivers are on overtime bans and our normal train is withdrawn) has this week, gone over from 2 x 4 car 377's to one 8 car 700  which has fewer seats, so now even in the August low peak summer time, people cant find seats  when there were plenty on the 377's last week. Its not going to be pleasant in September or even when most of our services go over to Thameslink once the London Bridge 'upgrade' is complete.

[black and decker boy]

Abellio are the winner

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-seats-for-rail-passengers-as-nearly-1-billion-is-invested-in-midlands-services

 

New EMU and DMU of various configurations it seems

[phil-b259]

Abellio are the winner

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-seats-for-rail-passengers-as-nearly-1-billion-is-invested-in-midlands-services

 

New EMU and DMU of various configurations it seems

 

And maybe more Desiros looking for a home given the DfT press release states

 

"Passengers on London services will benefit from 225 brand new carriages"

 

(though they do also state "with all other carriages being completely refurbished")

[melmerby]

This was noticable amongst the snippets:

(My bold)

"extension of services to Bromsgrove once the line is electrified in December 2018 delivering 3 electric trains per hour between Birmingham and Bromsgrove"

 

More slippage as a couple of days ago it was still showing for the May 2018 timetable change!

 

There was also this bit for the Cross City Line:

"investment in more than 100 brand new electric carriages introduced from 2020 specially designed and dedicated to the cross city line in Birmingham"

 

Keith

Edited August 10, 2017 by melmerby

[Hobby]

Ah, the fare dodgers will have the choice of another train for them to dodge on between Cov and Leamington!

[david.hill64]

Interestingly the new modern trains are not going to be affected by leaves on the line.......It will be interesting to see how they propose to solve this.

[melmerby]

Water Orton was a right mess. I was involved in the NE-SW route improvements in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Our original plan was to put the Derby lines to the North of the layout and the Nuneaton lines to the south with a new platform on the Down Nuneaton line. To get the required speeds towards Derby would also have required going across part of the car park at the Dog public house.

Basically BR had run out of cash so we had to make the best of a bad job. The Down Goods span of bridge 118 at Water Orton West had also been undermined by river scour and was in danger of collapse. We just had to try to make something of it to keep the railway running.

I suppose another alternative would be platforms only on the Nuneaton line with the Derby lines given a clear route through.

Crossovers at the Western end of the station and any passenger trains stopping at Water Orton but wanting to go to/from Derby (currently none!) travelling vis Coleshill Parkway and Whitacre Junction

 

Keith

[melmerby]

Interestingly the new modern trains are not going to be affected by leaves on the line.......It will be interesting to see how they propose to solve this.

The timetable will be completely suspended

 

Keith

[4630]

Interestingly the new modern trains are not going to be affected by leaves on the line.......It will be interesting to see how they propose to solve this.

Well the 'engineers' at the DafT did try to suspend the laws of physics during the development of the IEP. Presumably this is another example.

 

Either that or they've found a way to permanently de-forest the areas around railway lines. Agent Orange, anyone? Younger readers may need to Google that one.

 

As you say, it will be interesting - and probably amusing too, especially the marketing spin.

[corneliuslundie]

Also plenty of standing space on the Metro trains but I didn't see much mention of seats.

Jonathan

['CHARD]

Interesting fleet migration for the next 3 years or so.  

 

Looks like:

 

Class 139 stay

Class 150 to Northern as planned

Class 153 retired by 2020

Class 170 off-lease

Class 172 cascade to replace 15X, 170

80 New DMU vehicles to enable 172 cascade

Class 319 off-lease

Class 323 off-lease

100+ New Metro 4- or 6-car EMU vehicles to replace 323

Class 350/1 and 350/3 stay

Class 350/2 off-lease

225 New long distance 5-car EMU vehicles to replace 319, 350/2

 

I think the numbers are circa 320 vehicles returned to their leasing companies (314 Porterbrook, 6 Angel), and 405 new with the possible rounding to 100 of the Cross-City 'Metro' style fleet by DfT in its Press Release meaning that total could be something like 102 or 104.

 

I stress that all the above is logic based on public domain information and experience.

[D854_Tiger]

Interesting fleet migration for the next 3 years or so.  

 

Looks like:

 

Class 139 stay

Class 150 to Northern as planned

Class 153 retired by 2020

Class 170 off-lease

Class 172 cascade to replace 15X, 170

80 New DMU vehicles to enable 172 cascade

Class 319 off-lease

Class 323 off-lease

100+ New Metro 4- or 6-car EMU vehicles to replace 323

Class 350/1 and 350/3 stay

Class 350/2 off-lease

225 New long distance 5-car EMU vehicles to replace 319, 350/2

 

I think the numbers are circa 320 vehicles returned to their leasing companies (314 Porterbrook, 6 Angel), and 405 new with the possible rounding to 100 of the Cross-City 'Metro' style fleet by DfT in its Press Release meaning that total could be something like 102 or 104.

 

I stress that all the above is logic based on public domain information and experience.

 

 

Now to the important stuff, do we know what colour the trains will be.

[D854_Tiger]

Now to the important stuff, do we know what colour the trains will be.

 

Actually quick search reveals this colour.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40885118

 

Revenge of SIlverlink colour.

[jjb1970]

Hopefully Abellio and their Japanese partners will build upon an already very good service and implement a policy of evolution rather than revolution.

 

If the 350/2 fleet is replaced (or if they were refurbished to 350/3’s) that would be a positive, provided the replacements lose the awful 3+2 arrangement. I’m a bit lost as to why the media seem to be making such a big deal about free wi-fi when the LM Desiro fleet already offers free wi-fi, I gues sit sounds better to make it sound like a brave new innovation rather than to say it’ll be extended to those services which do not yet have it.

 

Something which is annoying me (and credit to the BBC for not doing this in the article linked above) is the number of articles and comments on this that want to point out the link between Govia and LM and the Southern debacle, which infers that LM are a bit of a lost cause. Whatever problems Govia have at Southern (and people should be pointing fingers at DafT as to why that mess is such a disaster, assisted by the RMT, more than at Govia) their LM operations have been excellent after a few rocky periods in earlier years and it doesn’t deserve to be smeared by linking it to the mess on Southern.

[D854_Tiger]

 

 

Class 139 stay

 

 

Parry People Mover are now defunct, no further development.

 

Why not consider integrating the StourbridgeTown branch into the main line service, three services per hour currently terminate at Stourbridge Junction.

 

The terminating train reverses in the bay, extending the train to Town, double back to the Junction and return to Town, and then finally direct Town to Birmingham. That's six trains an hour on the branch (maintaining the current service level) plus Stourbridge Town gains three direct trains an hour to Birmingham.

[D854_Tiger]

Hopefully Abellio and their Japanese partners will build upon an already very good service and implement a policy of evolution rather than revolution.

 

If the 350/2 fleet is replaced (or if they were refurbished to 350/3’s) that would be a positive, provided the replacements lose the awful 3+2 arrangement. I’m a bit lost as to why the media seem to be making such a big deal about free wi-fi when the LM Desiro fleet already offers free wi-fi, I gues sit sounds better to make it sound like a brave new innovation rather than to say it’ll be extended to those services which do not yet have it.

 

Something which is annoying me (and credit to the BBC for not doing this in the article linked above) is the number of articles and comments on this that want to point out the link between Govia and LM and the Southern debacle, which infers that LM are a bit of a lost cause. Whatever problems Govia have at Southern (and people should be pointing fingers at DafT as to why that mess is such a disaster, assisted by the RMT, more than at Govia) their LM operations have been excellent after a few rocky periods in earlier years and it doesn’t deserve to be smeared by linking it to the mess on Southern.

 

 

All highly convenient for DafT as well, no embarrassing headlines had Govia won the new franchise.

 

Too convenient really, Govia's job always was to take the heat (blame) off the government during the largest, most complicated, London Brighton and South Coast upgrade in over a century.

 

An upgrade which has progressed remarkably smoothly (as these things go), with Govia Southern brilliantly taking all the flack but now losing out on LM.

 

My best guess is, once all the fuss has died down, Govia will be amply rewarded (elsewhere) for a job very well done, probably somewhere where the party of government doesn't win so much.

 

Wales or even better Scotland, springs to mind, let's face it, the government would always hate to waste a chance to wind up Wee Jimmy Krankie a little bit more.

[D854_Tiger]

Interestingly the new modern trains are not going to be affected by leaves on the line.......It will be interesting to see how they propose to solve this.

 

With the considerable extra regulation now being imposed upon rail vehicles, the extra kit and the extra performance required to keep those trains out of the way of the faster stuff, the trend of late has been for new trains to be increasingly heavier, most especially the bi-mode sort.

 

So that kind of new technology, OO scale technology.

[wombatofludham]

My best guess is, once all the fuss has died down, Govia will be amply rewarded (elsewhere) for a job very well done, probably somewhere where the party of government doesn't win so much.

 

Wales or even better Scotland, springs to mind, let's face it, the government would always hate to waste a chance to wind up Wee Jimmy Krankie a little bit more.

 

Given the Welsh Government are awarding the Wales and Borders franchise specified around both the train service provision and management of their South Wales Metro development plan, and Transport Scotland specify the Scotrail franchise, the chances of the DfT playing political games is restricted to English franchises only.

 

I would have thought that the soon to be redundant Class 707s once fitted with a coathanger would have been ideal for the X-City.  They will still be smelling faintly of new paint by the time the contract is started, low mileage, pre-registered plus one owner, and a Siemens product so they can still be maintained by a franchised dealer.  Reasonable number of seats and standing space as they were specified for similar duties on SWT.  Or is that too common sense?

[The Stationmaster]

Well the 'engineers' at the DafT did try to suspend the laws of physics during the development of the IEP. Presumably this is another example.

 

Either that or they've found a way to permanently de-forest the areas around railway lines. Agent Orange, anyone? Younger readers may need to Google that one.

 

As you say, it will be interesting - and probably amusing too, especially the marketing spin.

 

The simple answer is to do what I was saying 30 years ago was the ideal answer - cutdown the trees.  Oh so easy I really can't see why NR don't do more of it than they have been doing - and s*d the tree huggers who are too young to remember that the trees never used to be there.

[D854_Tiger]

The simple answer is to do what I was saying 30 years ago was the ideal answer - cutdown the trees.  Oh so easy I really can't see why NR don't do more of it than they have been doing - and s*d the tree huggers who are too young to remember that the trees never used to be there.

 

I wasn't aware London Midland had too much of a problem with leaf fall, what with lots of well used four track sections and, let's be honest, a slight absence of trees in the West Midlands.

 

Maybe the lower reaches of the North Warwickshire line suffers a bit and some bits round leafy Sutton Coldfield.

[jim.snowdon]

Actually quick search reveals this colour.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40885118

 

Revenge of SIlverlink colour.

Yellow and blue would be more appropriate, given that abellio are an extension of Nederlandse Spoorwegen.

 

Jim

['CHARD]

I wasn't aware London Midland had too much of a problem with leaf fall, what with lots of well used four track sections and, let's be honest, a slight absence of trees in the West Midlands.

 

Maybe the lower reaches of the North Warwickshire line suffers a bit and some bits round leafy Sutton Coldfield.

 

We have terrible issues on Cross City North, with a fair amount of the line in cutting, leafy suburban back gardens - in reality the local routes have a real green corridor aspect to them.  

 

Cross City always has a leaf fall timetable (well, it has for the past few years), which, credit to London Midland, has proved relatively effective, I say as a daily out and back user of the line.

[dmustu]

On top of this, there will be standing room for 50,000 passengers in Birmingham in metro-style carriages, similar to the ones used on the London Overground, for short cross-city journeys

 

​Not everyone's journey on the cross city is short, not looking forward to a 50 min journey standing up!