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As was suggested on the Hornby SECR H class thread, I've opened this topic for pre-grouping fans to identify ways to use RTR models as the base for back-dating them more accurately than a livery scheme to pre-grouping conditions.

 

I have noticed many RMwebbers observe that the RTR models built to accurately reflect a prototype either 'as preserved' or 'as during their BR service' may contain many inaccuracies that a simple pre-grouping livery application does not produce a high-fidelity representation of prototypes as they appeared before 1924.

 

Recent examples of this kind of discussion occurred for the Bachmann E4 in LB&SCR umber and have begun on the newly announced Hornby SECR H class.  There were many such discussions on the Adams Radial tank as well.

 

This thread is intended as a place for such discussion.

 

I thought it was a good idea. We'll see if it works out.

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Excellent idea, thanks for setting this up.

 

Not to split hairs, but just to clarify: How "accurate" do we mean?  For example:

 

Here is Stefan's GWR 2721 backdate: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64814-backdating-the-Hornby-pannier/

- and here is David's GWR 38xx backdate:  http://www.gwr.org.uk/pro38xx.html

 

I'm sure they won't mind me saying that there are compromises in both of those projects - but to me the results are great and  an example of what could be discussed here? 

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As was suggested on the Hornby SECR H class thread, I've opened this topic for pre-grouping fans to identify ways to use RTR models as the base for back-dating them more accurately than a livery scheme to pre-grouping conditions.

 

I have noticed many RMwebbers observe that the RTR models built to accurately reflect a prototype either 'as preserved' or 'as during their BR service' may contain many inaccuracies that a simple pre-grouping livery application does not produce a high-fidelity representation of prototypes as they appeared before 1924.

 

Recent examples of this kind of discussion occurred for the Bachmann E4 in LB&SCR umber and have begun on the newly announced Hornby SECR H class.  There were many such discussions on the Adams Radial tank as well.

 

This thread is intended as a place for such discussion.

 

I thought it was a good idea. We'll see if it works out.

 

An excellent and useful thing to do. 

 

To address Mikkel's point, I agree, and I for one favour the idea that pre-Grouping modelling can be a reasonably broad church, and what one man cannot live with another can.  I think that provided the compromises are noted, people can take from others' projects and suggestions what they will.

 

I am looking forward to this.

Edited by Edwardian
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I think it's good to have a general topic, but we need separate ones for specific models too, once we've agreed they have potential. As I commented on the SECR H topic, I think there's more than enough pre-grouping related stuff on the forthcoming Oxford GWR brake van to fill its own topic, so there must be plenty for each loco.

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Not to split hairs, but just to clarify: How "accurate" do we mean?

I think the title would be better without the word Accurate, as the accuracy that can be achieved will vary with each model. Then it's up to each person to decide if individual models can be backdated with enough accuracy to suit them.

 

At the moment, I'm aiming for a "neat and presentable" standard, and prepared to make compromises to achieve my longstanding objectives. So I'm willing to compromise a fair bit, but I hope that will change in the future, when I may aspire to become a rivet counter for some of my modelling (but not all of it!).

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This topic, and any potential offspring in terms of doings to specific models, is of much potential interest to non-pre-group modellers. BR was still operating stacks of pre-group equipment well into the 1950s. I need to start thinking about Howlden coach designs for my 'final decade of BR steam on ex-GN territory' interest for example.

 

It might help clarity if a target year is included in any topic title.

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This topic, and any potential offspring in terms of doings to specific models, is of much potential interest to non-pre-group modellers. BR was still operating stacks of pre-group equipment well into the 1950s. I need to start thinking about Howlden coach designs for my 'final decade of BR steam on ex-GN territory' interest for example.

 

It might help clarity if a target year is included in any topic title.

The point is that there had often been big changes made by that time, so the RTR models may well be of stock built in the pre-grouping era, but the models usually represent them after those changes have been made. Often quite violent butchery will be needed to backdate them, if it's practical at all. The discussion of that gets lost if the interests of more modern eras are considered.

 

I agree about putting dates in the topic though, as "pre-grouping" is a period of around 100 years.

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One "detail" that matters a lot is changes in the style of boiler: not just minor changes in fittings, but wholesale boiler replacement that changes the centreline height, the firebox type or the presence or position of a dome.

 

For example, I have a part-built GWR 633 class (Gibson kit) that I very much want to finish in condition of 1908. They were built with round-toped fireboxes but the kit has a Belpaire firebox. My reference books acknowledge that the Belpaire fireboxes came later, but don't give dates of the changes (I think it was after WW1, but have no confirmation). Further, I haven't managed to find any photos that show the firebox top, so I don't know how to reshape it in detail.

 

Counter-example: I think the boilers for the SECR H class became an SECR standard and were never changed.

 

For any given class that the RTR folk give us, we need a register of boiler changes. I think the Yeadon registers are the thing for classes that came to the LNER but the information is not assembled so thoroughly for the other groups.

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The earliest fitting of a B4 boiler was to 641 in April 1916 and the last was 642 in April 1925. Have you got a particular loco in mind, as they had both S2 and S4 boilers at various times?

 

The RCTS books (or knowing someone with access to them) are essential for pre-grouping GWR locos!

Edited by BG John
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The earliest fitting of a B4 boiler was to 641 in April 1916 and the last was 642 in April 1925. Have you got a particular loco in mind, as they had both S2 and S4 boilers at various times?

 

The RCTS books (or knowing someone with access to them) are essential for pre-grouping GWR locos!

 

 

Any of them that was in London, working to Smithfield, in 1908 is fine by me. I'll see if I can get the RCTS books sometime.

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Any of them that was in London, working to Smithfield, in 1908 is fine by me. I'll see if I can get the RCTS books sometime.

 

If you haven't already seen them, these pages describing Adrian's research for his Basilica Fields layout should be of interest to you:

 

Smithfield:  https://basilicafields.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/gwr-goods-services-pt-1/

 

633s:  https://basilicafields.wordpress.com/2010/05/17/gwr-locos-pt-3-the-633-class/

Edited by Mikkel
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Great to see we're wandering off topic already! Or can a 633 be converted from an RTR loco? It looks a bit like a good olde Tri-ang Jinty, so no doubt it's been done in the past, but maybe not up to modern standards :).

Edited by BG John
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One project I've long had a desire to do is super detail an old Triang Midland 3F some one else did do one on here a few years ago and stopped just short of opening up the under boiler area but other than that made a really good job of it. So I sourced a Triang 3F off that well know auction site making sure it was a really old one with the plate chassis and also brought an old body for 99p at a local show. Now the idea is to not only detail it but take it back to as near as its as built condition as possible using an old RTR Triang loco any one who knows me or has seen some of my Caledonian locos will know I like a bit of RTR  butchery and have no qualms about taking a razor saw to a loco body .

   I do have in my spares box a white metal curved top lip Deeley/Johnson type tender (possibly an old K's one I think) but I might convert the Triang one just to see what sort of job can be made of it for someone who doesn't have a spare tender.

   The chassis will have some of the block weights cut back so when the area under the boiler is opened up it will be clear I've also got a set of Markits/Romford wheels to go on it and a more modern much smaller motor that doesn't encroach on the cab and will sit further back into the fire box again helping to open up the area under the boiler. The cab will be cut off and a new old style one will be made from plasticard and a top boiler section from the spare 99p body will be cut off and used to replace the Belpair top on the Triang boiler making it round topped.

   The rest like new buffers chimney and dome etc. will be fitted if required from after market suppliers

 

   This is the eventual aim

 

 

Obviously this will only happen when I clear the backlog of on the go jobs on my work bench as at the moment I'm knee deep in half built Silhouette cut pre grouping wagons.

post-17847-0-22625000-1475496726_thumb.jpg

Edited by Londontram
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Bizarrely, I stumbled upon a 4 year old thread attempting to ask the same question, just a few minutes ago:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78444-gwr-633-0-6-0t-from-14xx/

Seems that a modified 48xx body on a pannier chassis might be a possible solution(GWR standardisation/conservatism/inertia at play!), but it might be easier to build the M&L kit....

Oh no! Don't get me started thinking about that one! I think it will be easier just to get the springing on the rear axle on my 14xx right. But it's tempting!

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I knew just having one topic for discussing RTR backdating was a bad idea. As the person who originally suggested we needed separate topics for backdating RTR models, it was supposed to be about backdating CURRENT models, rather than getting it mixed up in the froth in the general discussion on them. Oh well, at least it proves my point. Anyway, carry on with this diversion, as it's interesting :).

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One project I've long had a desire to do is super detail an old Triang Midland 3F some one else did do one on here a few years ago and stopped just short of opening up the under boiler area but other than that made a really good job of it. So I sourced a Triang 3F off that well know auction site making sure it was a really old one with the plate chassis and also brought an old body for 99p at a local show. Now the idea is to not only detail it but take it back to as near as its as built condition as possible using an old RTR Triang loco any one who knows me or has seen some of my Caledonian locos will know I like a bit of RTR  butchery and have no qualms about taking a razor saw to a loco body .

   I do have in my spares box a white metal curved top lip Deeley/Johnson type tender (possibly an old K's one I think) but I might convert the Triang one just to see what sort of job can be made of it for someone who doesn't have a spare tender.

   The chassis will have some of the block weights cut back so when the area under the boiler is opened up it will be clear I've also got a set of Markits/Romford wheels to go on it and a more modern much smaller motor that doesn't encroach on the cab and will sit further back into the fire box again helping to open up the area under the boiler. The cab will be cut off and a new old style one will be made from plasticard and a top boiler section from the spare 99p body will be cut off and used to replace the Belpair top on the Triang boiler making it round topped.

   The rest like new buffers chimney and dome etc. will be fitted if required from after market suppliers

 

   This is the eventual aim

attachicon.gifMidland 3F at Nottingham.jpg

 

Obviously this will only happen when I clear the backlog of on the go jobs on my work bench as at the moment I'm knee deep in half built Silhouette cut pre grouping wagons.

 

I did this a couple of years ago. I will dig out the old pictures and upload later. I no longer have the model and it only ever got primer so it doesnt look great but I did use the Tri-ang tender heavily modified.

 

Gary

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We could do it by company, and extend to rolling stock (which is fairly minimal), so each topic might amount to something like a guide on what you can and can't achieve using RTYR in modelling company X.

 

So, LSW springs to mind.

 

Here we have one loco that I think can be used as manufactured, M7 (but this would be a place to identify any problems/tweaks), one loco that should be easy to backdate, the 415 Class Radial, and two that are completely unsuitable and would be s*ds to try to back-date, the T9 and the 700.

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Given the amount of work involved, and the compromises introduced by the Triang chassis, it might be easier to build one from scratch, using only one's teeth as tools...

True but this sounds like it could be fun and the concept is to see what can be done with a cheap RTR which might inspire some one with no or little scratch building skills to "have a go" whether he goes the whole hog or not in not important they might do no more than change the tender top but it shows them what can be done. As to the accuracy's of the original starting subject I think Edwardian summed it up perfectly back in post No. 3 

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If that's how you get your fun, I am not stopping you nor anyone else for that matter, but the starting point is so far removed from the prototype that the finished article (in this case) will only ever be an improved Triang model, and not really a model of a Midland 3F.

 

Why not backdate the Bachmann 3F? The result would be excellent, as well as a great individual addition to a stud. New firebox, new cab, new paint job.

Oh but you are Simon because in the same sentence you say "I am not stopping you nor anyone else for that matter" then go on and say "Why not backdate the Bachmann 3F" suggesting that what ever I chose to do or how I model will be a complete waste of time

 

The simple answer is I'm now disabled and have had to give up work, I simply haven't got £80 to spend on a loco and then take a saw to it. The Triang has only cost me with the extra body about £5 so far, everything else like the K's tender and spare Romford wheels I had in stock plus its a bit of a retro thing as back in the day as a boy I had a 3F and this will be a bit of a trip down memory lane.

 

At the weekend I went to a local model railway show (Aylsham in Norfolk) and there was two layouts there one 0 gauge tin plate and the other Hornby dublo three rail the chaps running both were have a great time and you know funny enough it never occurred to me to point out that they were wasting there time as the  majority of the locos were not accurate scale models as how they wanted to spend there time and money was their business

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Yes, we can do better than manufacturers with the chocolate fireguard that is the Epoch system.  A date or date range etc would be welcome.

I've also always believed that the description 'Pre-Grouping' is a bit misleading for some people getting started in modelling. A late friend used his own system of dating to help narrow down the age range. I can't remember the exact details but it was something like this for steam era:

 

1825 - 1855   Pioneer Age

1855 - 1890   Consolidation

1890 - 1914   Golden Age

1914 - 1922   Pre-Group

1922 - 1948   Big Four

1948 - 1968   Steam Twilight

1968 -            Preservation

 

He also had other categories for dieselisation and electrification but, for the life of me, I can't recall how they were broken down.

 

Dave R. 

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1825 - 1855   Pioneer Age

1855 - 1890   Consolidation

1890 - 1914   Golden Age

1914 - 1922   Pre-Group

1922 - 1948   Big Four

1948 - 1968   Steam Twilight

1968 -            Preservation

1825 - 1835: Pioneer age

1835 - 1892: Broad gauge

1892 - 1914: No broad gauge, but still fairly interesting

1914 onwards: Generally boring, but a few opportunities for not too serious modelling

:)

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c.1700 -1815: Gaining an Empire and Ascendancy over the French

1815 - 1832: Modern History 

1832 (Reform Act) onward: Current Affairs

 

OR (just to help John make sense of it all):

 

c.1600-1834: Pre-History (Some Durham miners, a Cornish Baronet, some chaps in Croydon, Liverpudlians & Mancunians and some Welsh blokes in Mumbles, all doing their own thing)

1835:  Railway History Begins when a Proper Railway is commenced to a Proper Gauge

1859:  Cornwall connected to the Mainland

1886:  Tunnel finally reaches the Welsh, bringing the Benefits of Civilisation.

1892:  But I still say Betamax was the better system

1904:  The world's greatest train service commences

1905:  When the livery was still gorgeous - the last thing John can remember

1923:  Something called "Grouping", a minor affair, but where did all these 0-6-2s come from all of a sudden? 

1924:  Gresley is Shown How it's Done.

1927:  Americans are Shown How it's Done 

1932:  World's fastest train, and Swindon starts designing locomotives for something called "the LMS"

1935:  Centenary

1948:  The End of History

Edited by Edwardian
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