Imaginary Railways

[Northmoor]

1 minute ago, KeithMacdonald said:

As for the East Somerset Railway, something like this? (New extension from Cranmore in red)

 

 

Exactly that.  The ESR have apparently had it suggested before but expressed no interest.  It would a moderately-graded and curved link onto the old S&D formation, but you wouldn't want to be doing more than 20-30mph anyway since you were just about to stop at the new terminus.  The railway could then be used as part of the transport network during major events; instead of just carrying a few tens of thousands of people a year, it could additionally get a share from carrying that many in a few weekends.

[KeithMacdonald]

The Marketing Department has been busy and produced one of those new-fangled DocVideo things on the interweb:

 

 

[sir douglas]

An idea ive had for a few years, before the Grassington branch was built, there was a light railway (gauge not yet decided) that followed the Wharfe from the Midland's Bolton Abbey up to Kettlewell. Mostly agriculture but there was some small scale Lead mining in the valley and maybe some more Limestone quarrying like int he Threshfield to Bolton area, though i dont know how far north the Limestone seam goes.

Edited August 27, 2023 by sir douglas

[sir douglas]

i was wondering the other day "what if the Midland went north through Wakefield on the Westgate alignment instead of going east through Normanton". Time wise the North Midland line to Leeds was 26 years before the West Riding & Grimsby. But the main thing is money and civil engineering, the NMR's alignment to the East was intentional to lessen costs by having a mile long cutting through Kirkthorpe and then it could just follow the river Aire into Leeds, instead of what we have with the GN (WR&G) line with the long viaduct and the tunnel. so anyway i started drawing it but then the problem of how each connecting line would now connect or which company would have been there instead, such as how would the L&Y and NER have interacted at Normanton, would the NER have gone up the Aire into leeds if the midland hadnt, what happens to the rest of the GN network in west Yorkshire now cut off from Doncaster, would some lines even exist or have been made by another company?, once this ripple effect started in my head i just though it wasnt worth it to have to sort out the whole county just to re align a section. 

 

a map of the real world as it was for comparison, this is from Lostrailwayswestyorkshire.co.uk

[HonestTom]

On ‎21‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 19:48, £1.38 said:

A truly imaginary railway, to my mind, would step away from reality and into a fictitious but believable time and place - maybe mild steampunk or Game of Thrones stuff, for example. Not quite as extreme as this though...

 

 

Take the unique atmosphere of Yakub Rozalski's fantastic paintings, for example...

 

https://www.artstation.com/artist/jakubrozalski

 

The problem for me is the trains. Other than some C19 French, German etc stock I am struggling to get any real inspiration.

 

I've been playing with the steampunk concept lately and am currently building a steampunk/Emett inspired loco over here. I wanted a bit of backstory for it, and I got a little carried away, devising a line known as the Seacastle, Morstemwo and Aberfanana Light Railway. It runs from the harbour at Seacastle-on-Sea through Morstemwo, Scragg End, Nant-Y-Maebl and Think-of-Something to Aberfanana, where it joins the main line (Cambrian perhaps?). It also has a branch to the Blackhead Mountain Mining Concern's private sidings. It's not clear what the BMMC mines, but they get through a suspiciously large number of wagons.

 

 

[1165Valour]

I'd like to do an imaginary GCR line of some sort, preferably with fast through trains and plenty of lovely Robinson types. Currently I'm looking at either the Welsh Railways Union or a scenario where the GCR acquired the E&WJR and the North Warwickshire line.

 

Maybe a scenario where the Knotty allied with the MSLR instead of the LNWR, with some GCR Manchester-Marylebone trains being routed via Stoke?

[melmerby]

How about the GCR having an alliance with the Midland?

New Junction at Loughborough to take trains from the Midland along a direct route to the centre of Nottingham, divert all Midland trains from the east of Nottingham via the GN connection into Victoria as well.

Optimise connections from the Derby direction and close Midland station. There could then be wholesale rationalisation N of Notts where the Midland & GC follow each other around.

 

Even more radical, Following the Bankruptcy of the GCR railway, the GWR & GCR merge (more probably the GWR absorbs the GCR), bringing the GCR north of England's lines into the fold as well.

As well as coal mines in Nottinghamshire & Yorkshire, the GWR would then have direct access to Manchester & Liverpool over the CLC, plus routes in Lincolnshire & access to the River Humber.

 

[RLBH]

11 hours ago, melmerby said:

Even more radical, Following the Bankruptcy of the GCR railway, the GWR & GCR merge (more probably the GWR absorbs the GCR), bringing the GCR north of England's lines into the fold as well.

 

Someone did suggest an alternative 1922 Grouping which did this, and put the Hull & Barnsley into the pot as well, giving the resulting railway a pretty extensive system. The suggestion also split the LMS into two groups - one built around the LNWR, LYR and Caledonian, and the other around the Midland and G&SWR. The intent there being to preserve genuinely competitive routes, rather than grant each company a monopoly over a particular region.

 

I have doubts about how well it would have worked, but it would certainly lead to the Grouping-era railway developing quite differently and some very odd sights to our eyes.

[The Johnster]

The Grouping was a London-centric interpretation of re-organising railways, and the further you get from London the less sense it seemed to make; by they time you get to Scotland the LMS and LNER were everywhere as a continuation of the companies they'd absorbed.  Further south, Wrexham is not at first sight natural LNER territory.  If you look at the GW from a Bristol-centric perspective, the merging of the GW and GC makes a lot more sense, and it sort of happened in practice to an extent with GW locos appearing up as far as Nottingham in later years.

 

It didn't seem to work reciprocally, though; no Butler Hendersons or Jersey Lilies at Bristol T.M. or Cardiff General! 

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by The Johnster

[KeithMacdonald]

8 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

it sort of happened in practice to an extent with GW locos appearing up as far as Nottingham in later years.

 

Was that how GWR got as far as Chester and Birkenhead?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkenhead_Woodside_railway_station

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Was that how GWR got as far as Chester and Birkenhead?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkenhead_Woodside_railway_station

Chester was on a main GWR route, (just keep going from Wolverhampton, then Shrewsbury and you get to Chester) Chester and Birkenhead  were on the Birkenhead joint, (Joint with the LNWR) which ran onwards from Chester to Birkenhead. The GWR also got to Manchester via the Birkenhead Jt towards Warrington with running powers over the LNWR from Acton Grange.

The GWR proper finished a Saltney a couple of miles West of Chester and ran over a short stretch of the LNWR's Holyhead line

 

See Here:

 

The GWR I believe had running powers to Nottingham Victoria and Halls and Granges went there and occasionally Castles.

 

There is one occasion when a Grange (6858) on a Leeds bound train was supposed to be replaced by an ex LNER engine at Leicester Central but none was available so the crew were told to keep going, eventually ending up in Huddersfield, scraping a few platform coping stones at Sheffield Victoria on the way. At Huddersfield the loco was stopped as being out of gauge and kept until it could be returned by a suitable route to the ex GWR tracks.

Edited February 19, 2020 by melmerby

[rockershovel]

On 12/09/2017 at 20:10, Corbs said:

Well they did have a Meyer at one time!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarch_(locomotive)

 

That may be a good model, a 'what if the FR had actually converted Monarch for use?'

 

I realise that may be better in the 'imaginary locomotives' thread.

 

The Arctic exploration vessels “Erebus” and “Terror” incorporated locomotives to provide steam heating and drive screw propellers, back in the 1840s

[rockershovel]

I’ve been musing for some years, and collecting stock for a project called “Oilpatch”, based on various things seen in my wandering. Location  would be somewhere between Algeria and Azerbaijan. Topography would be a semi-desert coastal plain, with a narrow beach as one limit and eroded scarp slopes in the background, transacted by periodic wadis, some large, some small, bridged with steel or timber trestles. A branch would venture into the foothills, Colorado style, probably with a double loop in D&RGW fashion. 

 

Standard gauge or 3ft, or a mixture of both. Era - late steam to early diesel, without the diesels. 

 

Steam traction, mostly of American origin, because I like them. Traffic to be long strings of filthy tank cars, pipe trains for the building of the pipelines which will ultimately replace the railway, drilling consumables and assorted engineering stores. Probably bogie hoppers for the phosphate and open cast coal mining which such lines also seem to serve.

 

Sporadic passenger traffic of bogie carriages of assorted vintage. Small halts with ground level platforms. 

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

^ It sounds like very hot, dusty & thirsty work.

 

Might you need to include a bar of some kind that the ex-pat oil works and UK/US "advisers" could frequent?

 

 

I suppose a lot depends on the era.

 

Make it too recent and there might not be enough left to model?

 

 

 

 

[rockershovel]

54 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

^ It sounds like very hot, dusty & thirsty work.

 

Might you need to include a bar of some kind that the ex-pat oil works and UK/US "advisers" could frequent?

 

 

I suppose a lot depends on the era.

 

Make it too recent and there might not be enough left to model?

 

 

 

 

 

I see you’ve been to the Crescent Beach Hotel in Baku! 

[rockershovel]

On a serious note, I had a good time in Tunisia in 2007/08, I wouldn’t go there now..

[The Johnster]

9 hours ago, rockershovel said:

The Arctic exploration vessels “Erebus” and “Terror” incorporated locomotives to provide steam heating and drive screw propellers, back in the 1840s

These were apparently London & Greenwich locomotives built originally by Marshalls; the one in 'Terror' was no.4 'Twills', named after a director of the company.  One assumes that the wheels and running gear were removed and the locos drove the propeller shafts from the driving axles and were mounted transversely in the ships.  As the wrecks have been located it might, I suppose, by possible to attempt to recover them, though I doubt much is left.

[rockershovel]

11 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

These were apparently London & Greenwich locomotives built originally by Marshalls; the one in 'Terror' was no.4 'Twills', named after a director of the company.  One assumes that the wheels and running gear were removed and the locos drove the propeller shafts from the driving axles and were mounted transversely in the ships.  As the wrecks have been located it might, I suppose, by possible to attempt to recover them, though I doubt much is left.

 

More than you might think   https://www.pc.gc.ca/en/lhn-nhs/nu/epaveswrecks

[rockershovel]

[The Johnster]

According to the Wikipedia article, the ships were equipped with desalination plants to provide fresh water, which was required at the rate of a ton per hour, for the locomotive boilers, which could propel the ships at 4 knots.  These desalination plants would have increased the lead content in the fresh water they produced, which one assumes was then used as a general fresh water supply on the ships.  Lead poisoning seems to have been a contributory factor in the deaths of those members of the expedition whose remains have been located, and this had been ascribed to the poor quality of the soldering of the tins that the expedition carried much of it's food in.  Tinned food was in general use in the Royal Navy in the 1840s and seems not to have caused any such effect elsewhere, and it may be that it was the locomotives that were thus indirectly responsible for the lead poisoning.  Actual deaths were from pneumonia, malnutrition, hypothermia, and possibly murder of companions for cannibalism, but lead poisoning affects mental condition and diminishes one's capacity for rational thought, so poor decision making could well have worsened an already desperate situation.  

 

The last note from the survivors stated that they were attempting to walk to the mouth of the Black River, in the hope of being able to access one of the trading posts on Hudson's Bay from that point, and while this seems a desperate and hopeless quest, it does seem at least rational.  But there seems little rationality in already weak and exhausted, in fact dying, men, pulling boats overland loaded with items that were of no use to them, including a piano which might have been better used as fuel to provide some temporary respite from the cold.

 

This is a bit of an excursion for a model railway website, and is definitely off topic!

[Northmoor]

19 hours ago, rockershovel said:

On a serious note, I had a good time in Tunisia in 2007/08, I wouldn’t go there now..

I went there barely 6 months after the revolution and had an excellent holiday, even though Libya - and the fighting was still underway there at the time - was only about 250 miles away.  Tunisia has always been a more peaceful existence than many of its neighbours.

[KeithMacdonald]

Back on the topic of Imaginary Railways, I've had a go at modelling the extension of the Kingsbridge Branch down to Salcombe.

 

It starts (naturally enough) at what was Kingsbridge station. With a reversing siding alongside the wharf below the town centre.

 

 

Then south alongside the tidal estuary, then though a cutting across Gerston Point, to cross the creek just south of Collapit Bridge.

 

 

Using Google Earth, I've measured the width of the tidal creek there. I estimate it's a 100 feet wide. So a couple of bridge piles each side should reduce the width just enough for an 80 feet Girder Bridge like this Dapol C003.

 

 

Then through a short tunnel to reach Blanksmill Bridge, which crosses a small stream (instead of a tidal creek). After that, we have a tunnel under the small hill with Ilton Castle on top.

 

 

After emerging from the tunnel, the line runs alongside the stream into Batson, where the line divides.

 

The southern branc is the "main line" into Salcombe Station, which has been built on land just north of the church. The land was reclaimed from the sea by infill from the tunnelling.

 

 

The northern branch through Snapes Manor is for a Royal Navy quayside and deep water moorings for supply ships.

 

[1165Valour]

I've already brought these up in GCR ideas thread, but thought I'd put them here:

- The Macclesfield, Knutsford & Warrington Railway: would likely have been CLC with NSR running powers or joint CLC/NSR.

- The Blackpool Railway: possibly joint GCR/Midland, maybe L&YR at a stretch

- The Manchester & Huddersfield Railway: was nearly included with the MS&LR at its formation

[rodent279]

What if..... The GWR had been successful in acquiring the Bristol & Gloucester Railway back 1840-whatever, instead of the Midland, and had gone on to acquire the Birmingham & Gloucester? (I know there was a break of gauge, but let's overlook that for now).

I surmise one possible repercussion might have been no line from Cheltenham to Stratford upon Avon, meaning today's GWSR wouldn't exist, except maybe as a lightly laid branch. Leading on from that, as the GW would have access to what became New St, there would have been no Snow Hill, and when the GW/GC Joint was built, Paddington-Birmingham trains would have terminated in either New St or Moor St. 

Presumably also the Badminton line would have been routed into Bristol via Mangotsfield, and what is now Bristol Parkway either would not exist, or would have been freight only.

Edited October 28, 2020 by rodent279

[62613]

On 11/07/2020 at 19:57, GWRSwindon said:

I've already brought these up in GCR ideas thread, but thought I'd put them here:

- The Macclesfield, Knutsford & Warrington Railway: would likely have been CLC with NSR running powers or joint CLC/NSR.

- The Blackpool Railway: possibly joint GCR/Midland, maybe L&YR at a stretch

- The Manchester & Huddersfield Railway: was nearly included with the MS&LR at its formation

Weeelll..... Stalybridge became a station joint between the LNWR and the MSLR; the LYR station was a separate building, on the land where the fire station now sits. The MSLR talked about what became the New Line (The Micklehurst Loop), but that was eventually built by the LNWR. It's interesting idea; what if the MSLR had built it? Would it have meant the line from Diggle to Huddersfield becoming joint?