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Poggy1165

The Pre-Grouping Pedants Weekly

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Poggy

 

Picking up an important point from earlier:

 

"Ffestiniog is still a pre-grouping railway."

 

Are you sure about that?

 

It was, at one pint, owned by The North Wales Power and Traction Company, placing it in a grouping with their other (unsuccessful!) enterprises, including bits of what is now the WHR.

 

I think it was also once a member of the group controlled from Salford Terrace, Tonbridge, colloquially 'Colonel Stephen's Empire', although I admit that it may have remained a separate legal entity.

 

And now, isn't it to some degree grouped with the Welsh Highland? In fact, I think that The Festiniog Railway Company, the legal entity, actually owns the WHR.

 

Also, I'd query the use of the double 'f'; the legal entity certainly was, and I think still may be spelled with a single 'f'. (Yes, just checked, and the legal entity is still 'The Festiniog Railway Company')

 

These may seem pettifogging points of detail, but they do take us back to the absolutely crucial question of the meaning of the word "grouping" in this context. Here, I am extending the question to ask whether, or not, 'coming under the control of a common management organisation' or 'coming under common ownership' constitutes "grouping", which extends to other cases, such as the SE&CR.

 

Kevin

Edited by Nearholmer
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"ff" is the correct spelling to get the Welsh sound for what us lot sound and spell as "f", so it really depends what language you're using.

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Attempting to be serious for a moment (don't worry, it will pass!), isn't this really a place to discuss all railways in Britain, as they were before 1923? Pre-Grouping is a term used to describe this period, but it's not strictly accurate, in the sense that people who are interested in this period don't confine their interests to only railways that became part of the Big Four.

 

Here's a pre 1923 loco belonging to a line that wasn't Grouped :)

post-7091-0-96357200-1502145677.jpg
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But we just said it was grouped with the ff- . with that Welsh one. Still, I like the loco.

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So do I, but reverting to pedantic mode, we may need to distinguish here between 'Grouped' and 'grouped'.

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"ff" is the correct spelling to get the Welsh sound for what us lot sound and spell as "f", so it really depends what language you're using.

 

Ahem ... not exactly. The name is correctly Ffestiniog. Historically in the past it had been spelt Festiniog. There were entities, and maybe still are, which used the spelling Festiniog and when referring to those that would be the correct spelling. But the railway itself I believe now uses Ffestiniog (although entities connected with it may still use the name Festiniog). So if referring to those entities, historical or present, which used that spelling it would be correct to still use that spelling, but use the correct spelling of Ffestiniog for things which use that spelling. That should clarify things. Nothing to do with language.

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Hmm beginning to loose interest in this thread now. Like listening to the same joke to many times. Oh well its a shame really as I thought this thread had potential.

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Fair point LT.

 

I'll "knock it off", and suggest a sensible topic that is of relevance to all pre-groupers:

 

In pre common user days, what governed or determined when an empty wagon, for which no return load could be found, was 'sent home'? I know about demurrage charges, but didn't they only apply to merchants, rather than railway companies? Was siding space the issue?

 

This prompted by noticing that a LSWR WTT showed daily 'empty wagon' trains, to Brent Yard, presumably with the main purpose of sending coal wagons back to mining areas.

 

Kevin

Edited by Nearholmer

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I am fairly certain that railway companies also paid demurrage.  This was managed - alongside the splitting of the receipts for transporting the wagon over foreign metals - by RCH.

Edited by Andy Hayter

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Looking at the thread title, is it only the pedants which existed in pregrouping times which may be discussed? no reference to railways being made (if it were a weekly for pedants, would not the title be "The Pre-Grouping Pedant's Weekly?"). So presumably Martinus Scriblerus is ok to discuss*, whilst the Cambrian Railway isn't?

 

*Assuming fictional pedants are allowed.

 

I think you'll find that the Cambrian Railways were named in the plural.

 

Chris 

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So do I, but reverting to pedantic mode, we may need to distinguish here between 'Grouped' and 'grouped'.

I knew of a girl who complained about being groped (not by me). Does this count?

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Reverting to bg johns blue KESR Terrier. You can now work up a train to go with this, 4wheelers, LSWR royal saloon, MSLR third (I think) and LSWR brake third. Alphagraphix do them as etched brass kits, I'm not acting as an agent or anything, I was just quietly slobbering over them at the Telford Guildex show a week ago, thinking "no, you've got enough on"

Edited by Northroader
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Reverting to bg johns blue KESR Terrier. You can now work up a train to go with this, 4wheelers, LSWR royal saloon, MSLR third (I think) and LSWR brake third. Alphagraphix do them as etched brass kits, I'm not acting as an agent or anything, I was just quietly slobbering over them at the Telford Guildex show a week ago, thinking "no, you've got enough on"

Can't afford them. I have plans to scratchbuild the various early 4 wheelers. But then I have lots of plans! I need a layout first though, and to fit radio control in the locos, so I don't have to wire it.

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....... we may need to distinguish here between 'Grouped' and 'grouped'.

I knew of a girl who complained about being groped (not by me). Does this count?

Oldddudders

 

That is very Non-U 

Edited by Penlan

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....... we may need to distinguish here between 'Grouped' and 'grouped'.

Oldddudders

 

That is very Non-U 

 

Au contraire! It is very much my sort of post, as others will attest!

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These may seem pettifogging points of detail, but they do take us back to the absolutely crucial question of the meaning of the word "grouping" in this context. Here, I am extending the question to ask whether, or not, 'coming under the control of a common management organisation' or 'coming under common ownership' constitutes "grouping", which extends to other cases, such as the SE&CR.

 

Are we (you?) talking about grouping or mergers here. Back in 1844 the Midland Counties, North Midland and the Birmingham and Derby Junction Railways merged, as did the London and Birmingham and the Grand Junction Railways so railway companies combining was nothing new.

 

"ff" is the correct spelling to get the Welsh sound for what us lot sound and spell as "f", so it really depends what language you're using.

 

The original Ffestiniog Railway was, of course as we all know, the Festiniog Railway. The Welsh eventually got their own back by renaming the port created by Madoc as Porthmadog.

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The original Ffestiniog Railway was, of course as we all know, the Festiniog Railway. The Welsh eventually got their own back by renaming the port created by Madoc as Porthmadog.

Originally pronounced Vestiniog?

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Originally pronounced Vestiniog?

 

My Welsh neighbours in Kent (they'd last lived in Germany) assured me that V was not a usual Welsh letter. I pointed to Lake Vyrnwy, a place I used to enjoy driving past on my way back from the Festiniog to Church Stretton. The same couple (sadly now deceased, and at no age) seemed baffled by the pub at Clun calling itself "The Sun at Clun." He was Cardiff, she Carmarthen. 

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My Welsh neighbours in Kent (they'd last lived in Germany) assured me that V was not a usual Welsh letter. I pointed to Lake Vyrnwy, a place I used to enjoy driving past on my way back from the Festiniog to Church Stretton. The same couple (sadly now deceased, and at no age) seemed baffled by the pub at Clun calling itself "The Sun at Clun." He was Cardiff, she Carmarthen. 

 

 

When I lived in Wales, many years ago but Welsh is a very old language, it was impressed on me that a single 'F' was pronounced like a 'V' whereas a double 'Ff' was the normal soft 'F' sound. So yes, Vestiniog it would have been. technically.

 

Could Vyrnwy once have been spelled with an 'F'? Your late neighbours have a point: why would Welsh use a 'V' when they already had the same sound using the 'F'?

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the welsh for vyrnwy is apparently Efyrnwy, so presumably the V is a later change by a non-native map or signmaker, although I'm not sure why you'd leave the rest of the word in such a state if you're trying to get it spelled phonetically.

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When I lived in Wales, many years ago but Welsh is a very old language, it was impressed on me that a single 'F' was pronounced like a 'V' whereas a double 'Ff' was the normal soft 'F' sound. So yes, Vestiniog it would have been. technically.

 

 

 

 

As I was pointed corrected near Breacon.

 

I was in a pub which served a beverage Fellinfoel (Sp?) and when I asked for 3 pints of feeling foul I was told most sternly that it was Vellin voel.

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As I was pointed corrected near Breacon.

 

I was in a pub which served a beverage Fellinfoel (Sp?) and when I asked for 3 pints of feeling foul I was told most sternly that it was Vellin voel.

The aforementioned late Welsh neighbours pronounced it "feeling foul"!

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Middle Welsh had a V and a K, and the only strictly observed double letter was Ll, modern Welsh is much simplified in comparison to remove confusing sounds - for example Pedeir Keinc y Mabinobi where both K and C do the same job, lose the K and everything now uses a C. Likewise V and F. The only thing left is the Y, which still varies by word and region.

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