Hornby discounts

[Coryton]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record...

 

Hornby need a consistent core range.   which must include high and low spec Mallard, Flying Scotsman and Tornado.  Current mainline trains (HSTs/Pendo/800) as affordable sets, consistent Thomas stock, dare I say it, pecketts?  All available, all the time.  

 

It might be a start if they made sure that the full range of track and paints were available all the time.

 

Batch production of rolling stock is probably a necessary evil.

 

But if you can't get the bit of track you need, you're a bit stuck. (Well of course you're not, you buy Peco. But that doesn't help Hornby very much).

 

 

They also MUST MUST MUST look at the prices of their accessories.   these have been subject to broad-brush-beancounter price increases for years and years and years.   A plastic platform section (RRP £6.99) or point motor switch (RRP £11.49) should be no more than £2.50 - £3.50 each.    Economies of scale would quickly kick in if these were appropriately priced.   I sell maybe 15 or 20 point switches a year.   If they were £3.50 each, I'd sell that many, perhaps more, every week.  as it is the sales go to Expo or Peco instead.

 

I asked the marketing director last year if he has ever gone around and evaluated the phyiscal product in his hand before looking at the RRP (in this case a plastic platform section) and he said no.    I suggested it would be a worthwhile exercise - do all of the products they sell command the prices suggested?

 

Interesting. I've often wondered why these are at the price they are, and concluded that enough people will pay those prices because it's Hornby. Perhaps I shouldn't have assumed that they know what they're doing

 

.

 

Some of the recent product decisions astonish me.  Why, for example, was the railroad class 90 released in Mainline livery (Which no-one really liked at the time the real locos were built) when it could have been Freightliner, or EWS or Greater Anglia?  

 

Naive thought - maybe it's easier/cheaper to get the rights to pain in a defunct livery than an active one?

[Georgeconna]

I agree. I remember the days when if you wanted something that was in the catalogue then you could go to your local shop and actually buy it. If they didn't have it then they would get it in.

 

But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya'.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Come to Cork mate, about 3 locos on the  LMS shelves - If we aint got it we can order it, Hornby King on the Shelf at a bargain€230.00. It will be there for ages Miles off the UK price. 

[TangerineWizards]

 

Some of the recent product decisions astonish me.  Why, for example, was the railroad class 90 released in Mainline livery (Which no-one really liked at the time the real locos were built) when it could have been Freightliner, or EWS or Greater Anglia?  Why is the GWR HST a limited edition?   Why not paint some Mark 4s to go with the VEC 91s they made?

Why are they not increasing production runs of Pecketts?   Why not re-release the items that really are selling, or which will compliment other products in the range?

 

 

This bit is particularly true. Its been almost possible to guess what will be in the bargain bin on the product announcement day in recent years. The First North Western Blue/Gold Class 153 reissued a couple of years after the first release was quite bizarre and is still available now at reduced prices.

 

I know its impossible for Hornby to respond instantly to new liveries in the real world but they surely must look to capitalise once a year at least? That is the way to get people paying full RRP for stock.

[Butler Henderson]

Churning out the same was part of the downfall of Airfix, recent Hornby production has been little different with the same black loco churned out with a different running number without much thought it seems. A tooling change to the K1 so that 2005/62005 can be produced accurately would I believe pay off rather than producing yet another run of the mill (ie not preserved) ones. Still have not fathomed why their is virtually no joined up thinking between the ranges like a Airfix range of model railway items. The one thing that would I expect sell like hotcakes if done by Airfix would be retaining walls to match the now seemingly golddust priced Skaledale ones. (Really could do with some of the tallest level ones but not at prices they go for on Ebay when they turn up)

Edited October 18, 2017 by Butler Henderson

[Widnes Model Centre]

Echoing what Trains 4 U is saying.

 

Track, paints, other Humbrol products; all unavailable at one time or another. The Humbrol paint stand in our shop has many vacant slots and as the till is opposite it looks as though we cannot be bothered re-stocking. We use four different suppliers and they are all sold out and have been for at least 9 months in some colours. The only solution is for us is to perhaps run down the Humbrol and move onto a certain German company. Production of Humbrol paint is in the UK.

 

Platform pieces, I get embarrassed when I am asked if the price is for the box, actually no its per piece. We are selling well below the rrp but that doesn't help.

 

We wrote to Hornby over 12 months ago and stated that the deep discounting was devaluing the Hornby Brand. No one wanted to listen.

 

Flying Scotsman, Tornado, Mallard were all sold at a loss. We will not restock, we sold our last remaining Scotsman a few weeks ago. Price to match competitors £54.99p. Now that is a ridiculous price, forced on us by Hornby's ultra deep discounting.

 

We have put our faith in the new CEO. I believe he will, given time, turn Hornby round. Part of our livelihood depends on him.

[ian]

If Taff could get Humbrol to find the recipe for matt black paint that they have lost somewhere that would go a long way to bringing in some sales revenue. It must be a year since anyone had some in stock...

[Clive Mark]

Realistically the largest proportion of modellers are not going to switch to O gauge.

 

 

Absolutely ! Because some of us have already been there ! Twenty years back and I have no regrets at all about returning to 4mm. I'm now delving into 2mm as it has become so good.

 

Despite our constant moaning (remember the Auzzies call us the "whinging poms"!) Hornby have given us some stunning products in recent times .....Maunsell and Bulleid Cattle wagons and AA15 Toad Brake vans. Also some outstanding steam locos such as B12.

 

When the product is tip top quality I am happy to pay. Yesterday I bought the Graham Farish Class 40 which have speakers fitted as standard even if it is not chipped making it good value. It really looks like a forty and is a massive advance on the old model. Again happy to pay for a pleasing product.

 

The new Dapol O gauge Jinty looks the part but has no more detail than Bachmann's OO Jinty. In fact it has less....how many people have spotted the little rivets around the cab front spectacle windows on Bachmann's Jinty. I suspect a lot of people do not realise just how good that model is.

 

And people rave about Dapols 08 but it is not without faults....see Brian Daniel's post on RM Web. I do not know if Hornby's 08 is completely fault free...perhaps it is....but it is such a fine model I cannot see the point of spending £180-£200 on Dapols.

[Guest Midland Mole @ Footplate]

We have not been able to get Hornby points now for months, so in the end we resorted to breaking up clearance train sets and packaging the points out of those. Even those are running out now.
Alex

[Coryton]

Track, paints, other Humbrol products; all unavailable at one time or another. The Humbrol paint stand in our shop has many vacant slots and as the till is opposite it looks as though we cannot be bothered re-stocking. We use four different suppliers and they are all sold out and have been for at least 9 months in some colours. The only solution is for us is to perhaps run down the Humbrol and move onto a certain German company. Production of Humbrol paint is in the UK.

 

 

Other paint brands are available.

 

For brushing acrylics, I'm not very keen on Hornby or Revell.

 

I find Vallejo far superior to either of them. I have also heard that the "Mr Hobby" paints are good. My local model shop has just started stocking them. I gave their yellow a go and it had much better coverage than Vallejo. I should try some more.

[adb968008]

One aspect of retail I think manufacturers over look, is fashion and resale.

Our hobby isn’t subject to fashion.. a Black 5 is a black 5, it was 5 years ago and still will be in 5 years.

 

Unlike £6 fidget spinners that will be binned next week, a £70 2014 black five will not end up in the bin, but on ebay, and it will fetch...£80, so when Hornby made the £130 black five in 2016, although not discounted by Hornby, it was discounted by the trade to approx £100.

Roll on 2017 with the £160 black five.. it’s competition is £60 less and identical.

 

Most likely what will happen is us modellers will increase our insurance premiums as our Black 5’s climb up to £120 on ebay, whilst Hornby’s sit in the warehouse.

The only way out I see is for Hornby to cut off all spare parts, so when ours break..their broken, eventually attrition may force us to buy new.

Edited October 18, 2017 by adb968008

[adb968008]

Just an observation,

 

In 2008 Hornby’s share price was falling from its peak of over £3 a share to £2 a share.

If I had bought 60 shares for £120, today I could get £20 back if I sold them, a loss of £100.

 

But if in 2008 I bought an R2717 70015 Apollo Brittania at full rrp of £120 instead...

Today I could sell it on ebay for £170, a profit of £50.

But Hattons sold these for £89, which means my profits jumped to £81.

 

Now suppose instead, I spend £89 on buying USD, at $1.95 =£1 in 2008, I have $173.55 in my pocket.

In 2017 I sell those dollars at today’s $1.34 exchange rate (inverse is 0.74) I get £128.42.. i’m £40 worse off than buying the model.

 

But R2717 70015 Apollo was special I hear you cry.. ok..

R2718 70050 Firth of Clyde.. same price, sells on ebay for £110, ok no big profits (£20 ain’t bad), but no losses either, especially when 2016’s ..

R3294 / 3295 (70043. & 70044) are selling for £110 also, what does this mean for Today’s Brittania (R3520 70007 Coeur de Lion) which is £179 ?

 

This is what’s wrong at Hornby, it’s not fashion, it’s not binned at the end of the week.. it’s resold and as the future rolls forwards, those toolings from the past compete and inflate with themselves in the future.

 

Why buy Hornby shares, when it’s their models which are a hedge against inflation and have out performed several currency exchange rates too.

Edited October 18, 2017 by adb968008

[Widnes Model Centre]

Other paint brands are available.

 

For brushing acrylics, I'm not very keen on Hornby or Revell.

 

I find Vallejo far superior to either of them. I have also heard that the "Mr Hobby" paints are good. My local model shop has just started stocking them. I gave their yellow a go and it had much better coverage than Vallejo. I should try some more.

 

Agreed, Humbrol is probably the brand we sell the least of. But it is also the favoured brand of the more mature of our customers, it is the brand they grew up with. I hardly ever use it, but in my case, that is because we don't have a lot of the colours due to the supply issue. That is an issue for Hornby to resolve as this will keep the Humbrol customers happy and loyal.

 

We stock, Vallejo Model Air and Colour, AK Interactive, Army Painter, Tamiya, MIG and all manor of derivatives. With exception of Army Colour, individually all the other brands outsell Humbrol.

[County of Yorkshire]

One aspect of retail I think manufacturers over look, is fashion and resale.

Our hobby isn’t subject to fashion.. a Black 5 is a black 5, it was 5 years ago and still will be in 5 years.

 

Unlike £6 fidget spinners that will be binned next week, a £70 2014 black five will not end up in the bin, but on ebay, and it will fetch...£80, so when Hornby made the £130 black five in 2016, although not discounted by Hornby, it was discounted by the trade to approx £100.

Roll on 2017 with the £160 black five.. it’s competition is £60 less and identical.

 

Most likely what will happen is us modellers will increase our insurance premiums as our Black 5’s climb up to £120 on ebay, whilst Hornby’s sit in the warehouse.

The only way out I see is for Hornby to cut off all spare parts, so when ours break..their broken, eventually attrition may force us to buy new.

 

Absolutely. I am not going to pay £161 (that's Hattons price - RRP is £189.99(!)) for the forthcoming Hornby GWR King from 'The Last Day' Collection, when I can pick up last years release for £89.99 discounted, a tin of matt black enamel for £1.70, and some HMRS transfers for £7, and have a King in the self and same livery with an evening's work. Modellers have no logical need to pay more for a 98% similar model, who's price is a hostage to time based inflation, though 'R number' collectors might. 

 

Another part of this wider whole is the fact that inflation has moved up to 3%, whilst wages have seen an average rise of 1.2% for the same period. Appreciate that Railway Modelling is a hobby, and a luxury - non essential - spend, but Hornby's recent RRP rises of between 5%-30% (Q1 from £110 to £150) for some products is totally out of step with certain parts of reality; partially for reasons as specified by adb9680008 above. 

 

CoY

[Ron Ron Ron]

......a £70 2014 black five will not end up in the bin, but on ebay, and it will fetch...£80,

so when Hornby made the £130 black five in 2016, although not discounted by Hornby, it was discounted by the trade to approx £100.

Roll on 2017 with the £160 black five..

it’s competition is £60 less and identical.....

 

.....This is what’s wrong at Hornby, it’s not fashion, it’s not binned at the end of the week.. it’s resold and as the future rolls forwards, those toolings from the past compete and inflate with themselves in the future.....

Mazak rot!

That's the answer to that one.

Hornby need to deliberately build in self-destruction.  

 

On a more serious note; your other point about competition brought about by the availability of good quality secondhand models and from cheaper stock still on the retailers shelves, indicates a degree of market saturation.

 

 

.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Ron Ron Ron

[royaloak]

Obviously means to run a tight ship.Hope they can hold their nerve and he gets a grip.Massive discounting may be good for the punters but in the long term it sends out the wrong message and is indicative of systemic failure.

It doesnt help the retailers either.

[royaloak]

So if there’s stock in the warehouse, no one has bought...

 

And they aren’t going to discount it...

 

What do they plan to do with it ?

 

If no one bought it in the first place, something was wrong with it, the statement suggests they don’t believe it’s the price that’s wrong after all they just put them up.

 

I guess k1’s, B17’s are going to be in the catalog for sometime.

 

But if that tied up cash was to put the stops further production, MNs, Duchesses, Pecketts and 87’s could end up being rare?

Have a conference with your retail stockists and see what they suggest, then formulate a plan that works for both rather than Hornby unilaterally deciding to sell the highly discounted models directly, if they need to be discounted than let the retailers have them at a discount that empties the warehouse and keeps your retailers happy as they can sell it on at a discounted price, everyone wins.

[royaloak]

We have put our faith in the new CEO. I believe he will, given time, turn Hornby round. Part of our livelihood depends on him.

Here is hoping he realises that!

[Trains4U]

Have a conference with your retail stockists and see what they suggest...

They tried that last December.

 

Unfortunately far too many representatives of model shops used it as an excuse to moan or resolve ridiculously narrow issues.

seriously, if you think people complain on here, it's nothing compared to that event, though bizarrely a lot spent more time complaining about Hatton's than Hornby. ( instead of figuring out ways to attract customers on their own merits)

 

A few of us tried to be constructive and highlight ideas or initiatives that worked before, or may boost business (once the mic was wrested from the hands of the most ardent complainers). But my guess is that they may be put off doing something like this again.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Trains4U

[Wicor Models]

We have not been able to get Hornby points now for months, so in the end we resorted to breaking up clearance train sets and packaging the points out of those. Even those are running out now.

Alex

I don't know why you can't get Hornby points as they have been in stock for most of this year and we've had no problem with the supply of standard points and if we had we would have sold the customers Peco Setrack points as a suitable alternative.  Earlier this year Hornby express points were OOS but we had plenty of Bachmann ones which are cheaper and just as good.  I would have a word with your rep if you are still having a problem.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Wicor Models

[Derails Models]

They tried that last December.

 

Unfortunately far too many representatives of model shops used it as an excuse to moan or resolve ridiculously narrow issues.

seriously, if you think people complain on here, it's nothing compared to that event, though bizarrely a lot spent more time complaining about Hatton's than Hornby. ( instead of figuring out ways to attract customers on their own merits)

 

A few of us tried to be constructive and highlight ideas or initiatives that worked before, or may boost business (once the mic was wrested from the hands of the most ardent complainers). But my guess is that they may be put off doing something like this again.

 

Yes, that was fun (sarcasm) - the majority of the Q&A session was hijacked by a few and became royal moan-fest. I actually had a more constructive talk with the CEO and Finance director in the lunch queue than the entire two hours of the Q&A...

 

But it did highlight a couple of important issues that they have seemed to have sorted, and more importantly we got a tour of the Williams F1 Museum so hey, it wasn't bad all round!   

Edited October 19, 2017 by Derails Models

[40F]

Hijacking .That was always going to happen and it was by a relatively new entrant into the business as well. Interestingly the bloke who did most of the talking and posturing left/was made to leave ten days later. Nobody seems to know why are they are not worried either. 

[royaloak]

They tried that last December.

 

Unfortunately far too many representatives of model shops used it as an excuse to moan or resolve ridiculously narrow issues.

seriously, if you think people complain on here, it's nothing compared to that event, though bizarrely a lot spent more time complaining about Hatton's than Hornby. ( instead of figuring out ways to attract customers on their own merits)

 

A few of us tried to be constructive and highlight ideas or initiatives that worked before, or may boost business (once the mic was wrested from the hands of the most ardent complainers). But my guess is that they may be put off doing something like this again.

Thats a shame, ruining what could have been a really helpful exercise for everyone, maybe if they only invited retailers (small and large) they knew would be constructive and helpful.

[Chamby]

OK so here’s what I do...

 

If a new model fits right in with what I am modelling, then I will buy it even at today’s silly prices (within reason). If it is something that I would like, that fits in with what I am modelling with a bit of modelling license, I will wait a bit and see if the price drops. If it bears no relation to what I am modelling but I like it and the price is low, then I might just be tempted. So, drop your prices and the number of potential customers increases, but this means that:

 

I feel good if I get something that I want, that sells out quickly and it therefore doesn’t get discounted.

 

I feel cheated if the price subsequently drops and I paid in some cases £40-50 more than I need have, But at least I have got what I wanted and have to accept that I was prepared to pay that price.

 

For sellers, they have to accept the average profit they will get for all the units sold in a given batch, driven by these market forces. What I really don’t understand is the current practice of producing yet another batch of something that is still on the shelves and now being discounted... Do you really expect me to pay £30-40 more simply to get the same item with a different number on the cab side?

 

Similarly, I really don’t need yet another apple green A1/3, whatever number is on its cab side, or if it is gloss varnished rather than silky. But a British Railways blue one... now there’s an obvious unmet need that you already have all the tooling for. So why are you still producing yet more green ones that are slow to shift?

 

What we seem to have now is a growing mismatch between market demand and what suppliers want to sell us right now. Feast or famine is becoming the new norm.

 

As an aside to this, I have become very appreciative of the small retailers who patiently keep their stock at non-discounted prices. Hunting down an older model that the big guys have long run out of can be very rewarding at times... especially those with good websites like Hereford Model Centre, these are very much appreciated.

[40F]

One of the biggest culprits was actually there as well, but said nothing

[Scottest]

Slightly off topic, I know they've been there for years but I always thought Margate was a daft place for a visitor centre. It's quite out of the way and no one's going to visit from the sea. Birmingham - Manchester, Leeds easy to get to for millions of folk

 

With tongue in cheek, Binns Road would be my first suggestion......