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Hills of the North - The Last Great Project


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33 minutes ago, coronach said:

How many operators will you need to be able to play trains?

 

Er ... quite a lot!

 

Bare minimum, based on one person in each operating well, would be six - but that would be painfully slow.

 

Ideal would be eleven (cripes!)

1) Central station (rest of the world)

2) Bog Junction (WCML / S&C through lines)

3) Shap summit / Carlisle Station North

4) Carlisle Upperby

5) Carlisle Station

6) Garsdale

7) Reedsmouth Junction (S&C through lines)

8) Dentonholme Goods

9) Caldew Junction (Carlisle North)

10) Carlisle Canal / Edinburgh fiddle yard

11) Riccarton Junction

 

Some of those would find gainful employment for two operators for even further slickness, especially Nos 1, 4, 5 &10. In comparison, Nos 3, 6, 7 & 11 will be a relative doss.

 

In short - something to suit all tastes!

 

I'll have to draw up a diagrammatic plan to show how it all interrelates ...

Edited by LNER4479
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2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Thanks for that - it took me about two hours to put together, albeit sat in front of the tele with the laptop propped in front of me. So no actual modelling done last night but it's actually quite useful to document it all as that in itself makes you think about things a little.

 

An opportune moment to thank you for giving me access to your Carlisle research files. Photos like this are invaluable:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/40060076700/in/photostream/

 

That one turned up a bit late, we keep finding more all the time - should be easier for you now.

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1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Er ... quite a lot!

 

Bare minimum, based on one person in each operating well, would be six - but that would be painfully slow.

 

Ideal would be eleven (cripes!)

1) Central station (rest of the world)

2) Bog Junction (WCML / S&C through lines)

3) Shap summit / Carlisle Station North

4) Carlisle Upperby

5) Carlisle Station

6) Garsdale

7) Reedsmouth Junction (S&C through lines)

8) Dentonholme Goods

9) Caldew Junction (Carlisle North)

10) Carlisle Canal / Edinburgh fiddle yard

11) Riccarton Junction

 

Some of those would find gainful employment for two operators for even further slickness, especially Nos 1, 4, 5 &10. In comparison, Nos 3, 6, 7 & 11 will be a relative doss.

 

In short - something to suit all tastes!

 

I'll have to draw up a diagrammatic plan to show how it all interrelates ...

One operator at Citadel is going to be very busy...

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Indeed - that's why I've identified it as a prime location for an additional operator, taking into account the need to shunt Crown Street goods yard. Going to be a busy operating well that one, as the Dentonholme operator is also earmarked to be stationed there.

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1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Er ... quite a lot!

 

Bare minimum, based on one person in each operating well, would be six - but that would be painfully slow.

 

Ideal would be eleven (cripes!)

1) Central station (rest of the world)

2) Bog Junction (WCML / S&C through lines)

3) Shap summit / Carlisle Station North

4) Carlisle Upperby

5) Carlisle Station

6) Garsdale

7) Reedsmouth Junction (S&C through lines)

8) Dentonholme Goods

9) Caldew Junction (Carlisle North)

10) Carlisle Canal / Edinburgh fiddle yard

11) Riccarton Junction

 

Some of those would find gainful employment for two operators for even further slickness, especially Nos 1, 4, 5 &10. In comparison, Nos 3, 6, 7 & 11 will be a relative doss.

 

In short - something to suit all tastes!

 

I'll have to draw up a diagrammatic plan to show how it all interrelates ...

I would plump for Riccarton Junction :)

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That's looking great Graham.  The impotance of Bog Junction, in my home city, is similar to the way that the main line to Castle Junction works on Green Ayre. 4 different operators can offer trains to the junction operator who then accepts them when ready. This is done with relays that drive LED's on the panel. Yellow is the call attention and when the junction operator is ready a button is pressed to wccept the train and the LED's turn red. It can be interlocked with the track but doesn't have to be. It works well in noisy halls.

 

Jamie

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Ah! Bog Junction, I remember it well from my days at CS&TE on the Carlisle job. The line to Forks Junction on the M&C line from Currock Junction to Rome Street Junction had been taken out of use. There was a regular train from somewhere like Redcar to Workington which had to go to Kingmoor where a second loco and crew  took over. Following some changes in the traincrew manning agreement it was discovered that under the new conditions had the chord still been in situ one loco and crew would have time to go staight to Workington and come back with a return working.

My small contribution was to help design the changes to the plan, control tables and track circuit bonding arrangements for the reinstatement of the line.

Edited by TheSignalEngineer
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Good on yer! Yes, there's pictures in one of my reference books of that part of the junction being plain-lined ... and then subsequently reinstated! I think it's still there to this day that track, isn't it?

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5 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Er ... quite a lot!

 

Bare minimum, based on one person in each operating well, would be six - but that would be painfully slow.

 

Ideal would be eleven (cripes!)

1) Central station (rest of the world)

2) Bog Junction (WCML / S&C through lines)

3) Shap summit / Carlisle Station North

4) Carlisle Upperby

5) Carlisle Station

6) Garsdale

7) Reedsmouth Junction (S&C through lines)

8) Dentonholme Goods

9) Caldew Junction (Carlisle North)

10) Carlisle Canal / Edinburgh fiddle yard

11) Riccarton Junction

 

Some of those would find gainful employment for two operators for even further slickness, especially Nos 1, 4, 5 &10. In comparison, Nos 3, 6, 7 & 11 will be a relative doss.

 

In short - something to suit all tastes!

 

I'll have to draw up a diagrammatic plan to show how it all interrelates ...

I'll see your 11 and raise you 15...

 

1. Paddington yardmaster (setting routes, accepting and receiving trains)

2. Paddington assistant yardmaster (remarshalling trains)

3. Porthmellyn Road signalman (and station pilot driver as required)

4. Penzance yardmaster (as Paddington)

5. Penzance assistant yardmaster (as Paddington plus all at Polperran)

6. St Enodoc signalman

7. Pentowan signalman

8. Pentowan station pilot driver (and light engines turning at Treloggan Junction)

9 - 14. Drivers

15. Fat Controller (trying to herd all the above-named cats).

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1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Good on yer! Yes, there's pictures in one of my reference books of that part of the junction being plain-lined ... and then subsequently reinstated! I think it's still there to this day that track, isn't it?

Yes, Bog junction still exists, where the Through Goods from Upperby and the Newcastle Goods from London Road Junction meet up. The Through Goods is still on Google Earth as far as just beyond the Currock Road bridge but although the line is still shown to the Metal Box factory in the Sectional Appendix it doesn't exist on the ground. The line from Bog Junction through the site of Forks Junction to Currock Junction is still there as the M&C Goods

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16 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I'll see your 11 and raise you 15...

 

1. Paddington yardmaster (setting routes, accepting and receiving trains)

2. Paddington assistant yardmaster (remarshalling trains)

3. Porthmellyn Road signalman (and station pilot driver as required)

4. Penzance yardmaster (as Paddington)

5. Penzance assistant yardmaster (as Paddington plus all at Polperran)

6. St Enodoc signalman

7. Pentowan signalman

8. Pentowan station pilot driver (and light engines turning at Treloggan Junction)

9 - 14. Drivers

15. Fat Controller (trying to herd all the above-named cats).

Well, if you going to get into 'Four Yorkshiremen' territory, to my basic 11 I would add:

12) Central station goods yard

13) Upperby shedmaster

14) Crown Street Goods Yard

15) Canal shedmaster

 

PLUS fat controller

 

AND tea boy

 

Very important that last one. 17 tea bags swimming in a gallon tea pot ... (cue Four Yorkshiremen impressions)

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17 teabags! Luxury, sheer luxury!

When I were Under-Porter’s assistant rag carrier we had to make do with t’old grease from t’axle boxes in a cup full of luke warm water from water column next t’fire devil. 
And we were grateful....

Edited by D-A-T
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14 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

This was the view of Bog Junction t.jpg.5dc5490f2fceb9043b23dec6f886f45e.jpgfrom Currock Road bridge in 2012 on our first research trip to Carlisle.

 

From the foreground, overgrown left tracks were the old Through Goods lines to the north via Rome Street Junction bypassing the station, right tracks are the M&C Goods lines to Currock Junction via the site of the former Forks Junction. 

The next bridge is the M&C line then behind it the  WCML towards Penrith. 

Left tracks through these bridges are the North Eastern Through Goods to London Road Junction which split at Petteril Bridge into the Newcastle and S&C lines, right tracks are the Through Goods lines to Upperby.

The only uses of the lines through Bog Junction now appear to be BNF traffic, engineers and track recording trains. It is also (IIRC) the only way of turning  trains remaining in the Carlisle area.

Edited by TheSignalEngineer
correction, see LNER4479 post below.
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50 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

From the foreground, overgrown left tracks were the old Through Goods lines to the north via Rome Street Junction bypassing the station, right tracks are the M&C Goods lines to Currock Junction via the site of the former Forks Junction. 

The next bridge is the WCML towards Penrith. 

Left tracks through bridge are the North Eastern Through Goods to London Road Junction which split at Petteril Bridge into the Newcastle and S&C lines, right tracks are the Through Goods lines to Upperby.

The only uses of the lines through Bog Junction now appear to be BNF traffic, engineers and track recording trains. It is also (IIRC) the only way of turning  trains remaining in the Carlisle area.

Thanks.

 

Minor pedant alert - the bridge in the distance is actually the Maryport & Carlisle route; the WCML bridge is hidden directly behind it.

 

Turning trains (and steam locos!) - uses Bog Junction in conjunction with the chord line from Upperby to London Road Junction. Although - technically speaking - if the link is still in from Bog Junction to Currock Junction, a very convoluted turning manoeuvre would be possible, using reversals at Upperby, the station and Currock?!

 

Edited by LNER4479
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Tea boy for me. Please.

 

I have a tea shirt with TEA BOY on it. I use to wear it at exhibitions when I took my train set out. My mates would drive it and I would keep them topped up with fresh tea. I didn't need to drive when out and about because I could drive it any time I like at home, so I let my mates enjoy themselves.

 

Sadly the way 2020 has gone I am not wearing it and only seem to be driving trains for myself, by myself. Which is OK as Sheffield Exchange is designed for one man, or even me, operation. It now has the added complication of all signals operational, if I remember.

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6 hours ago, D-A-T said:

17 teabags! Luxury, sheer luxury!

When I were Under-Porter’s assistant rag carrier we had to make do with t’old grease from t’axle boxes in a cup full of luke warm water from water column next t’fire devil. 
And we were grateful....

G'Day Folks

 

Had many of them on the railway.

 

 

manna

Edited by manna
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Thanks for the correction on the bridges, post altered. Seems hard to believe that it was almost 50 years ago that I was involved in the Carlisle PSB job and the reinstatement of Bog Junction to Forks Junction.  I had forgotten the the M&C junction is north of the Through Goods lines. 

 

3 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Turning trains (and steam locos!) - uses Bog Junction in conjunction with the chord line from Upperby to London Road Junction. Although - technically speaking - if the link is still in from Bog Junction to Currock Junction, a very convoluted turning manoeuvre would be possible, using reversals at Upperby, the station and Currock?!

The normal move seems to be the one using the Upperby to London Road chord.

If the Currock Junction crossover is still operational then it would be possible to use station -Upperby Junction (reverse) -Bog Junction- Currock Junction (reverse)- station or station - London Road Junction (reverse) - Bog Junction - Currock Junction (reverse) - station.

The Upperby chord option is probably preferred as it affects only the S&C and Newcastle trains. The Currock junction ones conflicts with just about every possible move to the south of the station at some point during its execution.

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7 hours ago, D-A-T said:

17 teabags! Luxury, sheer luxury!

When I were Under-Porter’s assistant rag carrier we had to make do with t’old grease from t’axle boxes in a cup full of luke warm water from water column next t’fire devil. 
And we were grateful....

Real Yorkshire men use 1 teabag then dry it out for reuse next cuppa time 

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  • LNER4479 changed the title to Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

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