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I thought "73080" had set out their concerns clearly.  As someone who had considered acquiring these books the concerns raised about having no redress should they not be received raised concerns with me.  They also appeared to have set out what actions the publisher could take to sell their publication in line with what others appear to do.

 

As 73080 said:

 

"In summary, if I should pay in advance for these books and they not be delivered for any reason, I appear to have no means of redress or even knowing the name of the person(s) or business entity that had received my money.

 

I write this in the hope that the publisher reads this and provides the above information.  I am sure that the publisher would not like to be seen to be operating in the same way as 'scammers', which is what is happening if the above information is not available."

 

As a, presumably, "one off" publisher I would have thought they would be happy to address the concerns raised by someone who would seem to have some knowledge of what is appropriate to provide consumer protection.  If they do they might increase sales, which would be helpful to them.  I've no wish to enter into any further debate as to whether having the name, address and telephone number of someone I have no awareness of would suffice, or otherwise. 

 

Perhaps you could pass on the concerns raised to David Wilkinson, for him to consider himself?

 

 

The address and telephone number of David Wilkinson is quoted in the original post.  What more would you like please?

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As regards means of redress, a buyer has standard consumer rights from a retailer and Paypal has its own buyer protection scheme.   The Paypal scheme applies to 'misdesriptions' or misdelivery, as opposed to the stronger rights you get via Section 75 (credit cards).  But Paypal does at least provide some protection for the buyer.   This is posted for information.   I have no connection with MNA books other than a common wish to see the books succeed.   I suspect that they are almost a labour of love!

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i have just spotted an advert in the current edition of Steam Railway which gives another buying option.  The advert says cheques made payable to Never Again Publishing can be sent with your contact details to: Mr. KHale, 150 Farrington Road, Wolverhampton WV46QL 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Had a stand at the SVR end of steam event today along with draft versions of the books. Looked very fine. Plenty of opportunity to ask questions and discounted pre release payments being taken.

 

Coincidentally there was a driver on the SVR who was a roster clerk at SY and BS in the 1980s.  I had always wondered if he was "officially" one of the Neverers because I heard rumours he did shed visits in the last days of steam.     

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Stephenwolsten on 26 July stated:

"As regards means of redress, a buyer has standard consumer rights from a retailer and Paypal has its own buyer protection scheme.   The Paypal scheme applies to 'misdesriptions' or misdelivery, as opposed to the stronger rights you get via Section 75 (credit cards).  But Paypal does at least provide some protection for the buyer.   This is posted for information.   I have no connection with MNA books other than a common wish to see the books succeed.   I suspect that they are almost a labour of love!"

 

 

I also wish to see these books succeed, but the above statement appears to be incorrect - there is no definite PayPal buyer protection in this case, and there still appears to be no way to contact the publisher from information on the website that takes payment (other than via an email address).

 

PayPal protection only applies if it is an 'eligible purchase'. The definition of an 'eligible purchase' EXCLUDES 'the purchase of goods and services prohibited by the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy'.

 

The PayPal Acceptable Use Policy states that

'You may not use the PayPal service for activities that ..... relate to transactions that.... are for the sale of certain items before the seller has control or possession of the item.'

 

This issue is discussed in detail, but from a different angle, on the DJModels 00 APT thread page 42 post 1048 (31 July 2018 - 14.42) onwards.

 

 

Whilst the 'Latest News' section on the mnabooks.com website has an entry dated 1 August 2018, I still can't find any reference on their website to the name(s) and address of the publisher, nor any contact name, address or phone number.  Why not ?

 

 

 

Edited to distinguish Stephenwolsten quote from my post

Edited by 73080
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There are adverts in various magazines that give an address for postal orders. May be a letter to them will gain the information required ?

Details are :-

Mr K. Hale,

150 Farrington Road,

WOLVERHAMPTON

WV4 6QL

 

For the cost of a letter and return postage envelope that should hopefully answer all your questions.

 

HTH

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There are adverts in various magazines that give an address for postal orders. May be a letter to them will gain the information required ?

Details are :-

Mr K. Hale,

150 Farrington Road,

WOLVERHAMPTON

WV4 6QL

 

For the cost of a letter and return postage envelope that should hopefully answer all your questions.

 

HTH

 

If Mr Kale is the publisher, why is he not stated as such on the mnabooks.com website which takes payment via Paypal ?

 

Stephenwolsten in an earlier post implies that David Wilkinson is the publisher.  If correct, then Mr Kale is taking payment for books for which he is not the publisher.  There may be nothing wrong in that, as booksellers do it all the time.  However, it does suggest that Mr Kale is not the person receiving payments via the mnabooks.com website.

 

Every other legitimate seller in the UK, with their own website taking payment, appears to give details of who is receiving payment, so why does the mnabooks.com website fail to do so ?  When I contacted Citizens Advice, I was told that as an absolute minimum, any UK website taking payments should display a contact name and address.

 

So I regrettably have to repeat:

 

Why does the mnabooks.com website not feature a contact name and address (as Citizens Advice state is required), nor state the recipient of any payments made via their website ?

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If Mr Kale is the publisher, why is he not stated as such on the mnabooks.com website which takes payment via Paypal ?

 

Stephenwolsten in an earlier post implies that David Wilkinson is the publisher.  If correct, then Mr Kale is taking payment for books for which he is not the publisher.  There may be nothing wrong in that, as booksellers do it all the time.  However, it does suggest that Mr Kale is not the person receiving payments via the mnabooks.com website.

 

Every other legitimate seller in the UK, with their own website taking payment, appears to give details of who is receiving payment, so why does the mnabooks.com website fail to do so ?  When I contacted Citizens Advice, I was told that as an absolute minimum, any UK website taking payments should display a contact name and address.

 

So I regrettably have to repeat:

 

Why does the mnabooks.com website not feature a contact name and address (as Citizens Advice state is required), nor state the recipient of any payments made via their website ?

Sorry I was only trying to point you in the direction of a possible answer to your question.

 

I neither know not am particularly fussed about the technicalities of ecommerce or the website. I have preorderd what I feel in a personal level will be a set,of books well worth having. Knowing the pedigree of those involved I have no issues with the legitimacy and integrity of the site and those behind it.

 

Maybe the safest way for you to proceed would be to wait until the books are published and then make a decision as to their quality and the final destination and integrity of those reviving your remittance.

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Perhaps there is a bit of a clue in the text on the front page of the web site:

 

‘Never Again’………

 

the previously untold story of the MNA, an enigmatic organisation dedicated to capturing the final years of British main line steam railway operation on film, is available in a stunning four-volume boxed set, featuring the finest examples of the railway photographer's art, seen through the lenses of some of the best-ever exponents of that art.'

 

Phil

Edited by Phil Bullock
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Where does is say you have to be a legal publisher to publish books?  Surely anyone with the right skills can self publish a book?  Is this not scaremongering - if you don't want to buy the book for fear you'll be ripped off, keep your money in your pocket.

 

Who is the actually legal publisher of these proposed books ?

 

I was about to place an order this morning but stopped as I could not find the business details of the publisher of these books.  Unfortunately, such details do not appear to be available in the public domain.

 

 

Please will some-one provide information that I can't find if it is available, but:

 

- I can find no record of 'mnabooks' nor 'Never Again Publishing' existing as a legal business entity in the UK.  If neither is a legal entity, then they cannot be the the legal publisher, and presumably the legal publisher must be a person or a partnership of people rather than a business.

 

- I can find no record of any address or telephone number for the publisher on the mnabooks website

 

- From the mnabooks website, I can find no way of contacting the publisher other than by email, should the books never be delivered

 

- whilst it is possible to pay by credit card, the payment goes through Paypal, so the usual credit card protection for payments over £100 would not apply.

 

In summary, if I should pay in advance for these books and they not be delivered for any reason, I appear to have no means of redress or even knowing the name of the person(s) or business entity that had received my money.

 

 

I write this in the hope that the publisher reads this and provides the above information.  I am sure that the publisher would not like to be seen to be operating in the same way as 'scammers', which is what is happening if the above information is not available.

 

 

P.S.  The Facebook page for 'mnabooks' gives some information, including the phone number 07979 802848.  A web search of this number shows it in association with the names David Wilkinson and David Wilkinson Associates.  The later has an address of 52 Surman Street, Worcester, WR1 1HL.

 

The Facebook page for 'mnabooks', gives an address as Kidderminster Station, but the accompanying map shows a location on Station Road 4km due east of Cleobury Mortimer.

 

A Google search of "David Wilkinson 'Never Again' " produces an entry stating that an update to the mnabooks website was made on 4th April 2018 by David Wilkinson. 

 

Is David Wilkinson the legal publisher ?

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Why does the mnabooks.com website not feature a contact name and address (as Citizens Advice state is required), nor state the recipient of any payments made via their website ?

 

I too suggest that you ask Mr Hale, not us, or hang on to your money if you are that worried.

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I had heard of the name 'Master Neverers', but due to having only been a kid at the time of the end of steam and having led a sheltered life since then, I wasn't actually aware of what they were and what they got up to. There is also a brief-ish article in a recent Steam Railway on them, by the way.

 

I wonder if some or all of the profits from this book will go to charity?

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Why should they?

 

I wonder if you might enlighten us with your reasoning, rather than just ask a loaded question. 

 

Why not, for starters?

 

I'm not sure why you perceive my question as being 'loaded?' Perhaps I have inadvertently imbued my brief question with an unintentional hidden meaning.

 

Surely a donation to a charity, even if it isn't a railway-related one, is a good thing?

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  • 4 weeks later...

I don't want to get into contract law, charities, Citizens' Advice bureaux, personal details etc., but I can assure you that the whole thing is a team effort; that Mr. Wilkinson is an extremely real person; that he's working very hard on these books with people like Mr. Hale and others well known in "the fraternity" who I don't really want to detail; and that for what it's worth, I've known him for 40 odd years, and another team worker for nearly 60 years. 

 

I've put my money down with no hesitation, as have several of my immediate circle. I believe that this is a publishing event on a par with "Decline Of Steam", that the reproduction and binding will be of really good quality, that nobody is going to make their fortune on this, and that the project will be a great tribute to Paul Riley and others who are no longer with us.

 

Maybe I should also mention that I've had nothing to do with the project myself. My only problem is where the hell I'm going to put the books!  

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I have been aware of the activities of the MNA for as long as they have been known about more widely than the clandestine activities within certain steam sheds and social circles.  Their contribution to the last days of BR steam were both somewhat shady and also very well-intentioned.  There were most definitely some characters among them and their like may never be seen again.  The closest we have ever got - and it wasn't that close - may have been those Stratford-based folk who added certain adornments to the Deltics in their final days and were sometimes seen travelling behind those same locos or photographing their workmanship.

 

The full story would make an interesting read.  It would also place on record what is now a better-known side to the end of steam.  I don't doubt, seeing some of the names involved, that photographs would be of high quality and may be of rarity value due to their access to non-public locations.

 

Unfortunately I have been burned, conned or plain unlucky once too often to part with a three-figure sum at this stage though will happily do so once I see the product.  Some of the concerns posted are I feel quite legitimate and while a single individual can publish a book it is my past experience as much as anything which is flagging caution here.

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Several of the individuals involved in MNA were instrumental in preservation societies in the mid to late 60s - Certainly at least the SVR, but suspect rather more....

 

That is part of the heritage we now have and is more than good enough for me....

 

I could be totally callous and say that in this case its SWMBOs money at risk - its my birthday present - but I for one have no doubt that what has been promised will be forthcoming and that it will be a major contribution to railway history

 

Oh hang on...

 

 

No - I really am convinced!

 

Phil

Edited by Phil Bullock
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Their contribution to the last days of BR steam were both somewhat shady and also very well-intentioned.

Indeed.

 

They appear to have indulged in what today would be termed wanton trespass on the operational property of British Railways, together with a reckless disregard of health & safety, including their own.

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Indeed.

 

They appear to have indulged in what today would be termed wanton trespass on the operational property of British Railways, together with a reckless disregard of health & safety, including their own.

 

Whilst I understand your professionally slanted concern at their activities, we lived in different times then, we had a lot more common sense for one, and personally I think to lambast them and others like them at this late juncture is a tad out of order.

 

Mike.

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we lived in different times then

Perhaps so, but I have now remembered one other inappropriate aspect of their reported behaviour, which allegedly formed the basis for their somewhat pretentious name - that of mass and deliberate attempts at fare evasion as they travelled around the country.

 

Even at this remove, I am not prepared to condone that.

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Whilst I understand your professionally slanted concern at their activities, we lived in different times then, we had a lot more common sense for one, and personally I think to lambast them and others like them at this late juncture is a tad out of order.

 

Mike.

Only going of what I’ve heard, but I can’t see a basis for the claim that they had a lot more common sense.
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Perhaps so, but I have now remembered one other inappropriate aspect of their reported behaviour, which allegedly formed the basis for their somewhat pretentious name - that of mass and deliberate attempts at fare evasion as they travelled around the country.

 

Even at this remove, I am not prepared to condone that.

 

There is some debate about the origin of the name - thats certainly one version CK but another is that they never got the master shot...hence Master Neverers. The latter is somewhat debatable - theres a taster in the current Railway Magazine, just reading that and looking at the pictures - 60052 on the Waverley, 75033 on the Cambrian - raises the hairs on my neck.

 

Theres no doubt that barriers were pushed but without their activities we would be a lot poorer...

 

Phil

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This has been an interesting thread, and amusing, most of us know a certain 'society' has been involved in the railway preservation movement from the very beginning, and has held sway in some. I will not be parting with any cash.

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