Tender locomotives on a branch with no turntable

[D854_Tiger]

Tender first working was certainly common - but is probably under-represented in photographs, the standard 3/4 shot of a tender or bunker first loco is nowhere near as popular as a loco running smokebox first...

 

Phil

 

I believe they were limited to 45 mph, which coincidentally was around the same speed unfitted freight trains were limited to, thus providing the perfect excuse for it.

[Davexoc]

I guess a lot depends on the locomotive would imagine tender first, on a Manor class that only has half a tender, wouldn't be too much fun on a day like today.

 

Then, back in the day, going over the Pennines in the early hours, with a L&Y locomotive tender first, blimey it must have been a wonder that they didn't end up with exposure.

Even on a dry day, running tender first it has its problems, at 25mph a Manor or 28xx with a low tender requires the coal to be damped down to reduce coal dust blowing in your eyes. You do get a good view of the line ahead though, something you won't get on the bigger tenders without leaning out the cab.

 

Dave

[PenrithBeacon]

The Stanmore branch didn't ever have a turntable, nor did it have a run round loop or watering facilities. The passenger engines were worked push-pull with the engine chimney first to Harrow and the freights (which might include an 8F) were tender first to Harrow and pushed to Stanmore with a leading brake van.

 

Because of watering issues freights were always tender engines and there was a water crane opposite the Stanmore branch platform at Harrow and Wealdstone immediately to the north of the station footbridge.

[The Johnster]

I believe they were limited to 45 mph, which coincidentally was around the same speed unfitted freight trains were limited to, thus providing the perfect excuse for it.

 

 

Not quite.  The freight speed limit of 45mph was not introduced until very near the end of steam; trains with vehicles consisting of 10 foot wheelbase were allowed to run at 60 mph prior to that if sufficient braking was provided.

 

Not all locos were provided with weather sheets, which must have been a poor protection against inclement weather at best.  Moreover, especially on locos with low tenders, there was an effect on the draw of the fire when the firebox door was opened.

[jim.snowdon]

The Stanmore branch didn't ever have a turntable, nor did it have a run round loop or watering facilities. The passenger engines were worked push-pull with the engine chimney first to Harrow and the freights (which might include an 8F) were tender first to Harrow and pushed to Stanmore with a leading brake van.

Because of watering issues freights were always tender engines and there was a water crane opposite the Stanmore branch platform at Harrow and Wealdstone immediately to the north of the station footbridge.

For most of its life Stanmore station had a run round loop and would have been operated in the normal way. It is still shown on the immediate pre-war OS maps, but not on the early 1960s maps. The probability is that it was removed and the track layout simplified radically after the line was closed to passengers in 1952. That simplification probably also removed the interlocking, with all the points converted to hand operation.

 

Jim

[PatB]

Weren't many of the BR Standard tenders designed specifically with tender first working in mind? I'm thinking particularly of the Standard Class 2s (and their LMS predecessors I think), but I've got a mental picture of larger examples still having the tenders cut away for visibility when running backwards.

[Zomboid]

Some tenders seem to have been designed for tender first running, including some which were fitted to quite large locos - Bulleid tenders have windows facing the rear, and electric lights on the back, suggesting they were intended to be the front of the train fairly often (though the high sided ones probably didn't offer a great view), and the BR1G has the windows but not the lights, and seemingly ran with 9Fs and 5MTs.

[PenrithBeacon]

For most of its life Stanmore station had a run round loop and would have been operated in the normal way. It is still shown on the immediate pre-war OS maps, but not on the early 1960s maps. The probability is that it was removed and the track layout simplified radically after the line was closed to passengers in 1952. That simplification probably also removed the interlocking, with all the points converted to hand operation.

 

Jim

The run round loop was always too small for a tender engine. Just long enough for one of the smaller Webb 2-4-2T used before the push-pull was inaugurated.

 

The Stanmore branch was built independently of the LNWR and very much on the cheap resulting in the site being too constricted for development. Operating the local banana distribution trade from there must have been an issue.

Edited December 11, 2017 by PenrithBeacon

[Reorte]

For current examples preserved railways have already been mentioned, but it happens with mainline steam. The Jacobite runs tender first one way (Mallaig to Ft William), although the line speed is probably low enough for it to not make any speed difference. The recent Tornado runs on the Settle-Carlisle had to be tender-first one way too, and I believe were speed-restricted when doing so.

[jim.snowdon]

Turntables were expensive items of equipment for branch lines and as far as I have seen, not many branch line termini had one. Unless they were particularly long, the inconvenience of running tender first was viewed as tolerable. Most services would have been run using tank locomotives in any case.

Where tender locomotives were used speeds were not high enough to make any speed restrictions consequent upon tender first operation significant, and for a long time the comfort of the loco crew did not figure that highly in the scheme of things.

 

Jim

[MiDAS]

Loco's on the GE section of the Eastern had tender cabs or protection boards fitted purely for tender first running. Classes J15, J17, J19 and E4 were so fitted, as many branches did not have turning facilities or had it removed.

Edited December 11, 2017 by MiDAS

[The Johnster]

Turntables, as well as being expensive, were often difficult to fit into restricted sites as well, especially where a railway that might already have been in operation for 30 or 40 years had generated development that had occupied the land around the terminus.  It's not always just a matter of 'ok, we can afford a 60 foot turntable at xxx, let's put one in'!

[Davexoc]

Some tenders seem to have been designed for tender first running, including some which were fitted to quite large locos - Bulleid tenders have windows facing the rear, and electric lights on the back, suggesting they were intended to be the front of the train fairly often (though the high sided ones probably didn't offer a great view), and the BR1G has the windows but not the lights, and seemingly ran with 9Fs and 5MTs.

Like this one, July 2004 heading to Skegness, here approaching Heckington.

 

 

Dave

[The Stationmaster]

Let us not forget that at one time longer distance tender-first running was definitely a long way from flavour of the month with HMRI.  The 1892 and 1902 issues of the Requirements insisted on the provision of turntables as noted below and effectively limiting tender first running to a distance not exceeding 15 miles (not that it ever specifically ruled that to be the case).

 

 

 

[ejstubbs]

That last requirement might torpedo the latest cunning plan I have for my layout!

[LMS2968]

Basically, tender cabs or no, tender first running was not popular with crews, who would always turn the loco to be chimney leading given half a chance. Sometimes it just wasn't possible, when they had to make the best of it.

[Nicktoix]

In operating Windermere (on the Lostock Junction layout) there are a number of movements indicated as "Light engine to Oxenholme". Windermere had either a very small turntable or none at all, and larger train engines were run bckwards to the junction at Oxenholme where there was a turntable.

 

There is a story about a Southern branch with a small turntable. Tank engines would return to themain line chimney first while tender engines had to go back teneder first.

 

Windermere had a 50ft turntable situated about 70ft from the gunpowder loading shed !!

 

Nick

[Colin_McLeod]

The RPSI operate the Portrush Flyer from Belfast several times each summer. There is no turntable at the terminus, Portrush and the loco ran light engine along the branch back to the junction at Coleraine where there is a turntable.

 

This did not continue however as the RPSI then tapped into the local demand in Portrush for a trip to Coleraine and back by steam (tender first both directions!).

[kevinlms]

The RPSI operate the Portrush Flyer from Belfast several times each summer. There is no turntable at the terminus, Portrush and the loco ran light engine along the branch back to the junction at Coleraine where there is a turntable.

 

This did not continue however as the RPSI then tapped into the local demand in Portrush for a trip to Coleraine and back by steam (tender first both directions!).

Tender first both directions = the Irish way!

 

Still with the old Limerick Junction set up, anything is possible!

[BR60103]

Windermere had a 50ft turntable situated about 70ft from the gunpowder loading shed !!

 

Nick

The model layout actually has a substantial motive power depot with a turntable that seems to handle everything short of the Beyer Garratt. It's located a bit farther than 70' from the gunpowder shed.

[PatB]

I guess a lot depends on the locomotive would imagine tender first, on a Manor class that only has half a tender, wouldn't be too much fun on a day like today.

 

Then, back in the day, going over the Pennines in the early hours, with a L&Y locomotive tender first, blimey it must have been a wonder that they didn't end up with exposure.

 

Might explain why photographs of Victorian loco crews show them to be generally...erm...substantial gentlemen, wearing multiple layers of clothing and sporting magnificent facial hair .

[Zomboid]

The RPSI operate the Portrush Flyer from Belfast several times each summer. There is no turntable at the terminus, Portrush and the loco ran light engine along the branch back to the junction at Coleraine where there is a turntable.

 

This did not continue however as the RPSI then tapped into the local demand in Portrush for a trip to Coleraine and back by steam (tender first both directions!).

Not related, but Portrush has (or maybe it's 'had' now) some wonderful somersault signals, which were still in use the last time the Google car went that way in May 2016.

[Coppercap]

Might explain why photographs of Victorian loco crews show them to be generally...erm...substantial gentlemen, wearing multiple layers of clothing and sporting magnificent facial hair .

From what I've read (and heard), much of this 'substantial' was often down to the substantial quantities of beer that many Victorian railwaymen consumed. The alcohol probably helped keep out the cold. My engineman great grandfather, who apparently enjoyed a beer or several (hopefully after work, but we heard stories), appeared to be of about average height but certainly in his latter days was rather more than rotund! Quite how he managed to perform some of his duties, I dont know, but it didn't stop him being the father of sixteen children! Unusually for a railwayman of his time, he was clean shaven.

[Colin_McLeod]

Not related, but Portrush has (or maybe it's 'had' now) some wonderful somersault signals, which were still in use the last time the Google car went that way in May 2016.

They are still there, for now.

[D854_Tiger]

From what I've read (and heard), much of this 'substantial' was often down to the substantial quantities of beer that many Victorian railwaymen consumed. The alcohol probably helped keep out the cold. My engineman great grandfather, who apparently enjoyed a beer or several (hopefully after work, but we heard stories), appeared to be of about average height but certainly in his latter days was rather more than rotund! Quite how he managed to perform some of his duties, I dont know, but it didn't stop him being the father of sixteen children! Unusually for a railwayman of his time, he was clean shaven.

 

Different times, different standards, back in the day I've heard stories of something of drinking culture on the railways (whilst on duty) and you don't have to go back as far as the Victorians (try 1970s).

 

Then, I remember my old dad, asking a policeman the driving way whilst supping a pint outside a pub one summer in the 1960s and being told mind how you go if your having a few beers.

 

They would have locked him up nowadays and thrown away the key.