Tender locomotives on a branch with no turntable

[Lacathedrale]

Posted this in the wrong subforum like a total idiot, so here it is in the correct place:

 

The branch terminus tation I'm looking to model didn't get a turntable until post-1900. The passenger services were worked by tank locomotives which I gather would just run-around and reverse. In this genteel era, how would tender locomotives handle the situation? 

 

In this case, the branch is only a few miles long and there is an engine shed with a turntable at the junction.

 

Would they simply reverse, dragging the loaded train with them? Or run light backwards to the turntable, be turned and then run backwards back down the branch to connect to their train in the correct orientation?

 

It may be that this branch never had anything BUT tank locomotives (SR Caterham Branch) but I am going to run them, so very curious.

 

Many thanks,

[Gordon A]

Just work tender first with the cab sheets in place during inclement weather.

 

Gordon A

[Nearholmer]

I’d be 99% confident that at least goods trains had tender engines at Caterham, 0-6-0 tender engines.

 

Answer as above.

[LMS2968]

Tender first working was never particularly popular with crews, but there were time when it was unavoidable and they just had to put up with it. This situation applies on almost all preserved lines today.

Edited December 9, 2017 by LMS2968

[eastglosmog]

A bit down market from the Caterham Branch (indeed, about as low as a railway can get), the Bishop's Castle Railway, 18.5miles long,  had no turntable.  It would not have mattered if it had, as there was a reversal at Lydham Heath, so whichever way its tender locomotive Carlisle set off, it would have to do one bit in reverse.

[Lacathedrale]

So just to suck it up and make do - that makes alot of sense now that you lay it out like that

 

On my model I was thinking I might get away with an automated schedule to control whichever locomotive was in the passing loop headshunt, run it all the way back to the Engine shed area I'm planning, turn it, and run it back to collect the train (all the while other services are doing their things and taking precedence on running lines, etc.)

 

I’d be 99% confident that at least goods trains had tender engines at Caterham, 0-6-0 tender engines.

Answer as above.

 

Thank you sir - I'm starting to amass material for a layout project so any sources or reference material you can recommend would be very helpful - particularly the early eras of the line, when it was single tracked.

[Steamysandy]

The North Berwick branch never had a turntable but on one occasion a special was run from there to St Andrews and back which entailed Double headed B1s in both directions twice in one day to cover the empty stock movements as well as the special which I was on!

The nearby Haddington and Gullane lines likewise never had turntables with tender locos working the daily goods out and back froths Junctions

[Steamport Southport]

Books on Caterham? I would recommend the Middleton Press one.

 

https://www.middletonpress.co.uk/books/railways/london-suburban-railways/caterham-and-tattenham-corner.html

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[BR60103]

In operating Windermere (on the Lostock Junction layout) there are a number of movements indicated as "Light engine to Oxenholme". Windermere had either a very small turntable or none at all, and larger train engines were run bckwards to the junction at Oxenholme where there was a turntable.

 

There is a story about a Southern branch with a small turntable. Tank engines would return to themain line chimney first while tender engines had to go back teneder first.

[FPH 603]

Tender first working was never particularly popular with crews, but there were time when it was unavoidable and they just had to put up with it. This situation applies on almost all preserved lines today.

Agreed, any train from an LMS tank locomotive to an A4 would have to run tender first if there was no nearby turntable.

[Nick Holliday]

Another excellent book on the Caterham line is that written by my god-father Jeoffry Spence, and published by Oakwood Press. (Last few copies remaining!) He was a well known railway historian and author, and helped to organise the centenary celebrations in 1956 and lived in a house in the town with a Southern style nameboards outside, Tuborg Halt, which reflected his other interest in, then, obscure lagers.

[Branwell]

Wouldn't it depend on the gradients involved as well?

 

If it was mainly uphill to the terminus, then presumably tender first running would be on the return journey to the junction station, but if it was mainly downhill to the terminus, would they run tender first on the outward journey?

 

It might depend on where the train originated from or was going to as well - if if was coming from or going further afield than the junction, and there wasn't a change of engines at the junction then presumably that would have a bearing on the direction in which tender first running took place?

[LMS2968]

Generally, you had the chimney to the uphill direction, that way the boiler water flowed towards and covered the firebox. For similar reasons, bank engines tended to be chimney first to the gradient. It wasn't a universal law, however, and in areas with cold, wet winds, many men would run with the tender against the train, this protecting them from the worst of the weather on the climb, and run light chimney first back to the bottom of the gradient, so getting the benefit of the cab front plate.

[eastglosmog]

The Lydd Railway (New Romney and Dungness) was worked predominantly by tender locomotives in pre-grouping days.  Mainly tank engine worked in Southern days, but Stirling 4-4-0's could still be seen.  Freight traffic seems mainly to have been handled by C class 0-6-0's.  Apparently tender engines normally worked tender first in the down direction, not sure why - not gradient related as the line was pretty flat!

[Lacathedrale]

Another excellent book on the Caterham line is that written by my god-father Jeoffry Spence, and published by Oakwood Press. (Last few copies remaining!) He was a well known railway historian and author, and helped to organise the centenary celebrations in 1956 and lived in a house in the town with a Southern style nameboards outside, Tuborg Halt, which reflected his other interest in, then, obscure lagers.

 

Many thanks, just ordered this now. I'm mostly focused on the earlier eras, it's really fascinating. 

[Poggy1165]

At Glossop there were regular Sunday trains from Sheffield to Manchester (and vice-versa) worked via Glossop. I believe the practice was to run tender first between Manchester and Glossop. In addition, the GCR/LNER was not above putting express locos on Glossop locals when running in. There was certainly no turntable at Glossop, and although there was a triangle just down the line at Dinting, it does not seem to have been used for turning engines on these occasions. The timings were too tight.

[The Stationmaster]

The turntable at our local branch terminus fell into disuse in the 1950s although we had regular workings with tender engines - on both passenger and freight trains.   The passenger engines always arrived light the correct way round to work their train away and equally they obviously ran tender first after stabling their arriving trains.  There was no turntable at the junction so to get to or from the nearest shed, which involved a reversal at the junction, they spent half their journey running tender first and the other half running chimney.

 

Around about 1958 I travelled on a school excursion which was worked by a 'Castle' - it worked tender first up to the junction where it ran round and then ran chimney first to Basingstoke where it was replaced by a 'Schools'.  On the return journey it ran chimney first to our branch junction and then worked the train tender first down the branch so it then worked the ECS away chimney first

 

Examples here -

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66922-the-stationmaster-says-goodbye-to-steam-at-henley-on-thames/page-1

[JeffP]

Many years ago, I remember being on the embankment under the GPO sorting office at Scunthorpe, when an 8F came up the bank hauling a loaded train, tender first.

We were quite surprised. 8F's weren't that common either.

[D854_Tiger]

Generally, you had the chimney to the uphill direction, that way the boiler water flowed towards and covered the firebox. For similar reasons, bank engines tended to be chimney first to the gradient. It wasn't a universal law, however, and in areas with cold, wet winds, many men would run with the tender against the train, this protecting them from the worst of the weather on the climb, and run light chimney first back to the bottom of the gradient, so getting the benefit of the cab front plate.

 

i believe it was a universal law over the Neath and Brecon, with the Pannier tanks always facing uphill and never being turned to ensure it.

[D854_Tiger]

i believe it was a universal law over the Neath and Brecon, with the Pannier tanks always facing uphill and never being turned to ensure it.

Actually I think I meant to say Merthyr and Brecon there, that was the one with the big hill

[Phil Bullock]

Tender first working was certainly common - but is probably under-represented in photographs, the standard 3/4 shot of a tender or bunker first loco is nowhere near as popular as a loco running smokebox first...

 

Phil

[Dagworth]

Tender first working was certainly common - but is probably under-represented in photographs, the standard 3/4 shot of a tender or bunker first loco is nowhere near as popular as a loco running smokebox first...

 

Phil

And yet, on a model, I always think there's something about a loco running tender first that appeals more to me than if it is the "right" way round.

 

Andi

[kevinlms]

And yet, on a model, I always think there's something about a loco running tender first that appeals more to me than if it is the "right" way round.

 

Andi

It does look a bit weird, when its an A4 though!

[D854_Tiger]

Tender first working was never particularly popular with crews, but there were time when it was unavoidable and they just had to put up with it. This situation applies on almost all preserved lines today.

 

I guess a lot depends on the locomotive would imagine tender first, on a Manor class that only has half a tender, wouldn't be too much fun on a day like today.

 

Then, back in the day, going over the Pennines in the early hours, with a L&Y locomotive tender first, blimey it must have been a wonder that they didn't end up with exposure.

[Phil Bullock]

And yet, on a model, I always think there's something about a loco running tender first that appeals more to me than if it is the "right" way round.

 

Andi

 

Is that because we are looking at it from our model railway viewpoint Andi - much more attractive than down at track level view we would usually have the view of the prototype?

 

Take a look at the view from the road bridge at Arley of a southbound tender first loco on the Severn Valley and compare that to a trackside or platform level shot....

 

Cheers

 

Phil