Class 170 on Holbeck depot in Northern Livery

[Mark Saunders]

Was I imagining it this morning (11-08) that there was a 3 car 170 on the wash road in the current Northern livery with two in Scotrail?

 

Mark Saunders

[hexagon789]

Northern have obtained ex-ScotRail 3-car 170/4 for use on, I believe, Leeds-York via Harrogate and Leeds-Southport via Manchester Victoria.

 

They have 10 at present and are due 6 another eventually. A total of 27 units of Classes 156 (5 units), 158 (6 units) and 170 (16 units) are supposed to transfer from ScotRail overall.

[Simon Bendall]

Was I imagining it this morning (11-08) that there was a 3 car 170 on the wash road in the current Northern livery with two in Scotrail?

 

 

170476, only one repainted thus far.

[4630]

The first two or three class 170s for Northern use arrived IIRC at the end of March.  170476 left quickly to go to LNWR at Crewe for refurbishment with the others still in debranded Scotrail livery remaining at Leeds for use on crew and depot training.

 

Here is 170475 arriving at Woodlesford on 6th April with 5Z01, 09.07 Holbeck loco sidings to Nottingham training run.

 

 

They were introduced to Leeds to York via Harrogate services from the May timetable change.  I haven't seen them yet on any Leeds to Southport services.

[SGJ]

The Northern livery is 170476 as pictured bellow ( not my photo )

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/29715208@N02/43064166065/in/feed

[Ken.W]

Two Scotrail liveried class 170s on Heaton depot this morning, presumably en-route on transfer

[EddieK]

So it must have been 476 that I think I saw pass beneath the York ring road (on the Harrogate line) in Northern livery....

[Ken.W]

Two Scotrail liveried class 170s on Heaton depot this morning, presumably en-route on transfer

Still there, the near one’s 459

 

[Alex TM]

Hi everyone,

 

There are a few running about de-branded in the Edinburgh and Fife area.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Wheatley]

First four are in use on the Harrogate branch at the moment, they'll get further afield once other depots learn them. Trundling around the Vale of York in second gear is not doing their oil and fuel consumption figures much good, but the a/c has been welcome recently. The original intention was to refurbish/relivery first but the Great Lancashire DMU Famine put paid to that temporarily. The four units have released half a dozen 150 and 153s for Calder Valley / Bolton Corridor work.

[Market65]

That's strange. Last Thursday, when I visited York, it seemed to  be only 142's on the Harrogate service - perhaps I was on the station at the wrong time. Next time I'll have another look at a different time. It will be good to see something better than has been used before on that line. But I thought Northern had a shortage of units right across the franchise. You never know what will turn on services these days.

 

Regards,

 

Rob.

[Bomag]

That's strange. Last Thursday, when I visited York, it seemed to  be only 142's on the Harrogate service - perhaps I was on the station at the wrong time. Next time I'll have another look at a different time. It will be good to see something better than has been used before on that line. But I thought Northern had a shortage of units right across the franchise. You never know what will turn on services these days.

 

Regards,

 

Rob.

 

From what I have seen the 170's have been used on the Knaresborough services rather than the York ones.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Bomag

[eastwestdivide]

First four are in use on the Harrogate branch at the moment, they'll get further afield once other depots learn them. Trundling around the Vale of York in second gear is not doing their oil and fuel consumption figures much good, but the a/c has been welcome recently. The original intention was to refurbish/relivery first but the Great Lancashire DMU Famine put paid to that temporarily. The four units have released half a dozen 150 and 153s for Calder Valley / Bolton Corridor work.

On the low speeds and Harrogate line - there are plans for 4 per hour between Leeds-Harrogate, of which two fast/semifast. Could the 170s end up only on the faster services?

The Northern Connect map of proposed services at https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/northern-connect seems to show Harrogate as part of the Connect network.

[Covkid]

First four are in use on the Harrogate branch at the moment, they'll get further afield once other depots learn them. Trundling around the Vale of York in second gear is not doing their oil and fuel consumption figures much good, but the a/c has been welcome recently. The original intention was to refurbish/relivery first but the Great Lancashire DMU Famine put paid to that temporarily. The four units have released half a dozen 150 and 153s for Calder Valley / Bolton Corridor work.

 

On the low speeds and Harrogate line - there are plans for 4 per hour between Leeds-Harrogate, of which two fast/semifast. Could the 170s end up only on the faster services?

The Northern Connect map of proposed services at https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/northern-connect seems to show Harrogate as part of the Connect network.

 

Frankly, it is a waste of units set up for interurban work. The class 170s are 100mph units and their hydraulic transmissions operate at their optimum above 70mph.  Bit like putting a deltic on a Settle and Carlise job really. Trouble is, until the 195s are commissioned the 170s are the newest NT DMUs and will be sent to their interior optimum rather their performance optimum.   

[31A]

170 476 was definitely on a Leeds-York via Harrogate on Friday 3rd August (early afternoon, I suspect 1406 off Harrogate) because I rode on it.  It was certainly nice to have a comfortable modern unit with air conditioning and tables!  I have often seen it and the Scotrail-liveried ones on Harrogate line services at York in recent weeks.

 

I believe the desire is to provide a higher quality of train for the Harrogate line which brings in a lot of revenue (being mainly non PTE fares) and serves a popular destination with 'well heeled' customers both living locally and Conference Centre attendees, and hence a high percentage of long distance (mainly London) feeder traffic, but has long been a bit of a Cinderella in terms of rolling stock compared to (for example) the 333s on the Airedale and Ilkley lines.

[Ray M]

Copt for this 1 yesterday, at the back of Holbeck

[Ken.W]

Still there, the near one’s 459

 

9A174EE6-CA86-46FF-8DD3-0E1CD47CF96A.jpeg

 

..... developed a fault, apparently, and waiting for a spare part

 

Thought they couldn't possibly be coming to Heaton, too far from Leeds for Northern

[31A]

..... developed a fault, apparently, and waiting for a spare part

 

Thought they couldn't possibly be coming to Heaton, too far from Leeds for Northern

 

 

Northern units get transferred between Heaton and Leeds & vice versa via 5A55 and 5A60.  Also at other times as required; York Northern drivers sign Newcastle for that reason.

[Wheatley]

Three units (not including the one on training duties) is not enough to cover all the diagrams, even the basic service without the peak extras thrown in. Also it depends where they go off that route, the first one off Leeds (for example) forms a through service to Hull so cannot be a 170 as Hull crews don't sign them. At the moment it's usually a 155. The 17:11 off York has been a 170 more often than not over the last couple of weeks but the 17:41 invariably isn't because it's split off a 2+2 set earlier in the day to fill a gap in the basic XX:11 departures.

There are plenty of routes they could be used on and no doubt will be once depots other than Leeds York and Harrogate learn them, but that's not a quick process. The last thing you want is for one to rock up at Preston on a 1BXX only for a Blackpool driver on a swapped diagram to go "Don't sign that" and walk back to the messroom.

The Great Lancashire OHLE Famine might have been more accurate, the lack of wires for the 319s to run under is causing the unit shortages elsewhere. There are currently two ex-GWR 153s and a 150 putting in appearances too.

 

Frankly, it is a waste of units set up for interurban work.

 

 

Yes it is. There are 16 coming in total which is way more than LDS-HGT-YRK needs so there must be a wider plan somewhere.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Wheatley

[hexagon789]

Frankly, it is a waste of units set up for interurban work. The class 170s are 100mph units and their hydraulic transmissions operate at their optimum above 70mph. Bit like putting a deltic on a Settle and Carlise job really. Trouble is, until the 195s are commissioned the 170s are the newest NT DMUs and will be sent to their interior optimum rather their performance optimum.

I'm not sure how accurate it is, but I've heard it said that the 170s also have some sort of power-limiting feature meaning that only half-power is obtained even on full throttle (Notch 7) until a speed of about 30 mph has been attained.

 

If that's correct I imagine using them on stopping services must be a bit problematic, certainly they seem quite sluggish at lower speeds compared to say 156s or 158s but quite adept at picking up their heels and cruising at higher speeds.

Edited August 20, 2018 by hexagon789

[westie7]

The 170 is on a torque converter up to 45mph then a fluid coupling after that. So full throttle from 10mph + is a bit sloppy.

[smiths park]

Three 170's sat in Heaton this morning presumably waiting for a move south

[hexagon789]

The 170 is on a torque converter up to 45mph then a fluid coupling after that. So full throttle from 10mph + is a bit sloppy.

I think you are thinking of 75 mph Sprinters which changeover at 45 mph; 170s switch to the fluid coupling at 70 mph.

 

Off-3-5-7 seems the normal technique ScotRail drivers employ, though I have noticed varying techniques from different TOCs though. I believe that applying full power from a stand (the original method employed) was discovered to waste fuel and generate a lot of waste heat for little noticeable improvement in acceleration below about 10-15 mph.

[westie7]

170s switch to the fluid coupling at 70 mph.

Not what the 170 Traction manual states

[sir douglas]

northern have also just got some sprinters from First great western, ive seen them recently still in dark green either doing the Wakefield-Knottingley or the Leeds-Sheffield