WWI Scottish Naval Bases - ministry wagons and loco liveries

[Martin S-C]

Hello all. I hope someone can assist with WWI period Highland Railway and North British Railway livery information as well as a couple of other questions.

I have been contacted by an American gentleman, John Bower, who wrote:

"I am doing research into my grandfather's World War One US Navy service in Scotland with the North Sea Mine Barrage. His pictures of equipment show wagons with M and M with an upward arrow between. Can I assume this was a 1918 livery for Ministry of Munitions? May I send you copies of my pictures for you to help me identify the liveries and color matches?

"The US Navy at Base 17 (Invergordon/Dalmore) also had an ex-LB&SCR A1X Terrier (picture attached). I am interested in confirming the livery during the 1917-18 period of US Navy use. The Admiralty bought 2 Terriers (one was used at Base 18 Inverness). The following pictures are at Dalmore.

"The base was served by the Highland Railway at Alness and Invergordon. I understand the Highland used a solid, unlined livery during the war. I need to confirm the color of green used used by the HR."

He included the following photographs:

1) M /|\ M (Ministry of Munitions?) wagon for which confirmation of livery is sought. Is the wagon number 840? Who might have built this pattern of wagon?

2) A line of 5- and 4-plank wagons that include an NB 4-plank and an HR 4-plank. Any further identification of other wagons in this photograph would be greatly appreciated, as well as liveries. The NB wagon is presumably mid-grey and the HR wagon dark brick red, both marked in white.

3) Part of Dalmore base showing the A1X Terrier. Does anyone know what livery these carried in military/naval dockyard service?

4) Dalmore again.

5) North British box van No.32553, presumably of 10 tons load. I am assuming livery details are mid-grey and white markings. Can anyone please confirm?

6) Another Ministry wagon, 3-plank fixed side No.449. Am I right in thinking this would be light- to mid-grey with markings in white? Who might the builder have been?

 

As far as I'm aware the HR olive green livery was used on non-passenger coaching stock. Unfitted wagons would have carried the dark brick red livery. Is this correct?

 

Thanks all.

 

(EDITED to correct last image caption, thanks to Alex for this)

Edited October 7, 2018 by Martin S-C

[Ben Alder]

Utterly fascinating pictures! Have a word with Portchullin Tatty of this forum. He models that era, and his father has published several books on the HR; he should be of use to you. If I can post these images to the Highland Railway Society I should get a response or two that may shed some light on this.

[decauville1126]

As regards the Ministry of Munitions wagon, I had to research the colour for a narrow gauge loco from a 99-year old sample taken from an area untouched by light or weather. The nearest was BS381c 693. Also known with the modern name of Aircraft Grey. So might be a good starting point. I'm sure I've seen conversion charts for the BS381c series (prewar) to match to available shades from modelling paint companies.

 

Nobody to date has told me I've used the wrong colour .....

[Nearholmer]

Truly fascinating pictures.

 

They certainly deserve an appreciative audience of Scots railway experts and Terrier fans.

[Alex TM]

Hi Martin,

 

Fantastic photos. I've looked through a couple of my HR books but with no other photos that would help; no comments about the Admiralty loco livery either.  I posted a question on here about that a few years ago, but with no success.

 

As to the wagon in picture 6; are you sure that's a dropside?  The sides looked fixed to me.  The axle-boxes and brakes remind me of the Ration ex-LNWR kits.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Martin S-C]

If I can post these images to the Highland Railway Society I should get a response or two that may shed some light on this.

Ben - yes, please do. I hope some expert can throw more light on the wartime military operations as well.

 

More thoughts:

 

Picture 1) Grease axleboxes. I see little to no brake gear so this may have a single wooden brakeblock and brake lever on the far side of the wagon.

 

Picture 4) The Terrier appears to show lighter coloured side tanks and splasher than the black of the smokebox. Was there a standard Military livery in WWI? I can't detect any lining.

 

Picture 5) Several figures hide the interesting areas but is that a horizontal bar strengthening between the W irons? I don't see much brake gear either, though most is hidden. Is the horizontal bar to the right of the standing figure who is between the two kneeling men a handbrake lever? Immediately below the left hand of the right-most figure is a small horizontal bar, light coloured. Perhaps the handbrake lever in the applied position? Note to the right a 4(?) planked dumb buffered internal user wagon.

 

Picture 6) Single wooden brake shoe, one side only. No brake lever on the far side. Fairly primitive for 1917-18. As the marking declares, not to go on public lines and rightly so!

 

Could people comment on the liveries and colour shades here? I assume they are close. Of course weathering darkens the workshop finish.

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

the wagon in No.6 is definitely fixed-sided. No hinges, no door-bangers, and the timbers are continuous end-to-end.

Edited October 7, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Martin S-C]

Hi Martin,

 

Fantastic photos. I've looked through a couple of my HR books but with no other photos that would help; no comments about the Admiralty loco livery either.  I posted a question on here about that a few years ago, but with no success.

 

As to the wagon in picture 6; are you sure that's a dropside?  The sides looked fixed to me.  The axle-boxes and brakes remind me of the Ration ex-LNWR kits.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

Hi Alex.

 

You're right, its a fixed side. I will edit the original post.

[Caledonian]

 

Could people comment on the liveries and colour shades here? I assume they are close. Of course weathering darkens the workshop finish.

 

37-2018K-PO_3427272_Qty1_1.jpg HRWagonD16.jpg index.jpg 007_04.JPG 9101_pic_3_750.jpg 10138.jpg NBRvan40%.JPG

 

 

 

I'm assuming the first one is a Bachman Collectors club one, which duplicates a Hornby offering from a few years back - I have a rake of the latter with Bachmann small couplings. I can recall some discussion a few years back on these very pages in which someone commented that the livery was correct and flashed a [black and white] photie to prove it.

 

Although I've not seen it in the flesh a Google search also turns up the double M and broad arrow on a Bachmann tank wagon of recent vintage although its a much prettier colour.

[Portchullin Tatty]

Hi Martin,

 

I can only clear up the livery question, which you have largely answered yourself anyway!!

 

The standard livery for the highlands good stock was a variant of red oxide, your description of a red brick is probably not too bad if you went for a relatively dark brick colour (and it varied anyway!).  Ironwork was picked out in black.  The model picture (which may be one of Pete Armstrong's?) has this right in my eyes.  Non-passenger stock was painted in Highland green, but I don't see in any NPS in your photograph.

 

What I can not tell you is what the Highland vehicle is; I am still working on this.  It looks taller than the model picture you have but I will take a longer look at it this evening.

 

With regard to the terrier, things can get a bit confusing.  I am pretty certain that the admiralty acquired some second hand ones through the first war and this looks unlettered in one of your views, so I guess that this is one such.  However, the Highland also had some on loan during the period due to the pressures of traffic that they were suffering in the war.  They had these for some years and it is not known whether the Highland repainted them and if so, in what colour!

 

They are fine photographs and all are new to me.  Does you contact have any more that can be shared.  I take it you/your contact knows that Invergordon was a large Royal Navy base during the war and also a big base (run by the Americans) for the laying of the north sea barrage of mines?  If they do not already know of it, you will find some photographs of Invergordon Harbour in these places:

 

http://www.theinvergordonarchive.org/search.asp?id=&page=11&start=1665&q=harbour

https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/museums/nmusn/explore/photography/wwi/wwi-north-sea-mine-barrage/scotland/invergordon.html

http://www.ambaile.org.uk/en/page/show_home_page.html

 

 

Mark

Edited October 8, 2018 by Portchullin Tatty

[Nick Holliday]

Posted this to fellow members of the Brighton Circle, for the Terrier content. I got this reply from Simon Turner that may be of interest:

 

Nick

 

Thanks for the link to the post of the Terriers etc in Scotland.

 

I am not registered to RMWeb so I can’t post but in case no-one else mentions it , the wagon in photo 6 was probably a product of Edward Eastwood & Co. of Langley Mill , Derbs. The angled crown plate and “E E C” on the axleboxes give the game away.

 

Regards

 

Simon

[Mad_Dan_Eccles]

What a wonderful set of pictures.  Thanks to you, and to Mr Bower

 

The HR open wagon rather looks like a 4 plank type introduced by Peter Drummond, but it seems that many older wagons were also rebuilt to this same general style but using older components. I am inclined think its the same general type as the model in your follow up post. 

 

The Terrier livery is a puzzle, but we know the RN rather liked to paint all things that move grey, so I do wonder if this is what we can see here? RNAS armoured cars and the first landships also got grey paint (aeroplanes were an exception but even then metal parts were often painted grey). At the beginning of the war the Grand Fleet used a dark grey; this was replaced early in the war with a rather lighter shade; the early shade was 3 parts black to 2 parts white, giving a very dark charcoal grey, whereas the later version was 3 parts black to 4 parts white and that seems to be in the right sort of range to match the contrast in the photos. 

 

(Invergordon also had a passenger service provided by a GWR steam railmotor which was on loan to the Highland. It's success can possibly be deduced from the fact that the HR apparently had to have spare engine and coach on standby in case of failure and that the GWR didn't seem want it back when the fighting finished - it was apparently still in Scotland for some months after the grouping.)

 

Somewhere in my collection of stuff I have seen sketch diagram of the layout at Invergordon and will dry and fish out a copy..

 

Aidrian

[DOCJACOB]

Fascinating pictures.

 

According to an old copy of Industrial Railway Society (Scotland) 6 locomotives were at Admiralty Invergordon Dockyard by 1/18

 

Only 3 mentioned and identified ex LBSCR 681, 638 and 683 which were sold to Shropshire and Montgomery Railway.

 

681 became Hecate 8/21

 

638 became Dido 11/23

 

683 became Daphne 11/23

 

The Colonel Stephens website has a bit on the Terriers and alleges Hecate was Marsh Umber and Dido was Black. It further says photographic evidence suggests they were in repainted in sort of sage green at some point.

 

No idea where/what the photographic evidence is??

Edited October 8, 2018 by DOCJACOB

[Martin S-C]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed. Here's some thoughts in response.

Stuart - yes, its the Bachmann wagon. I feel confident the livery is a fair representation and as far as colour goes, is fine. I think if one is a person who weathers their models (I do not know if John Bower does) then one can be a little more relaxed in one's choice of base colour. "Mid-grey" might fade to some extent under sunlight or darken with dirt between repaints. So variation towards both ends of the light/dark spectrum are acceptable.

Mark - Mr Bower's grandfather was a US sailor and was based at Dalmore in 1918 so yes, he's aware that Dalmore/Invergordon was US Naval Base 17 and Inverness was US Naval Base 18. Its through his grandfather's military service that he has become interested in the railways of that time and place and wants to model them.

Thank you very much for your info on Highland wagons, but sadly I have misled everyone. My apologies! The initials on that wagon are not "HR" but "MR" (!) I came across a better quality version of the second image while Googling last night. This is curious because Mr Bowers says it is a personal photo of his grandfathers yet I found a copy on the US site "www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/" (nhhc stands for Naval History and Heritage Command). Perhaps his grandfather submitted the photo to them many years ago? As you can see the MR markings are clear on this version.

https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/NH-89000/NH-89504.html



The wagon carrying the large steel boxes (mine barrage floats?) in the third row also has an "M" visible. These are probably flat wagons of some kind as you can see that further down the siding the boxes are stacked three high. Unlikely in open wagons, unless they are very low-sided ones (actually the slant of the ones stacked 3 high might suggest they are lashed into 1- or 2-plankers?)

So, after all that, no HR wagons are involved, only NB, MR and internal military user.

However this US Navy site also threw up a real surprise, namely this:

https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/NH-89000/NH-89505.html

 

A Hull & Barnsley Railway Class G2 0-6-0 tank alongside an 0-4-0 industrial saddle tank. The H&BR engine has had its number (hastily and crudely?) painted out.

Can anyone identify the 0-4-0 and even suggest a livery? What livery did the HBR engines carry?

https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-LNER-CONSTITUENT-COMPANIES/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-THE-HULL-BARNSLEY-RAILWAY/i-HNvLDzf

The crews are civilians which seems strange on what was a US Naval Base (Dalmore/Invergordon was Base 17 and Inverness Base 18). Mr Bower states that his grandfather advised him the Terriers were crewed by US naval personnel so perhaps the above photo records the arrival and hand-over or crew training session on these engines.

John Bower writes:

"The photo [of the H&BR loco] you sent to me is very interesting. The US Navy crew would have been in uniform. The two sets of men in civilian clothes are not US Navy, I'm pretty sure. The spark arrestors and painted out numbers place both of these in military service, I believe."

Moving on, an aerial photo of Dalmore Distillery as occupied by the US Navy as part of Naval Base 17.

 

 

Mr Bower has written to me again this morning:

"Both Bases (Invergordon and Inverness) used A1X Terriers purchased by the Admiralty in January 1918. The bases were built by the Royal Engineers and an Inverness contractor from November 1917 until the handover to US Navy operation in February 1918. Corrugated sheds were imported from the US and the extensive yards and rail line to Invergordon docks were built during that time. These locomotives may have been used to build the bases and the British crews may be training the Americans. US Navy personnel operated the Terriers on each base and wore their uniforms... [though] I'm guessing, of course..."

Link to a superb pdf file of the US Navy North Sea Mine Barrage Operations of 1918. While the focus is on the ships and mining operations, there are several photos in here covering the base railways:

https://archive.org/details/northernbarragem00anna/page/n0

A Wordpress WWI education log mentions the US Naval presence at Inverness:

https://ww1education.wordpress.com/2015/07/06/the-americans-in-inverness/

https://ww1education.wordpress.com/2015/06/29/the-north-sea-barrage-and-rose-street-foundry-mine-sinkers/

Link to results on the NHHC site of a search for "Dalmore Naval Base":

https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/search.html?q=Dalmore%20Naval%20Base

And the NHHC again, search results for "Invergordon Naval Base" which gives some different image results for Dalmore including a superb aerial view (3rd image) and another shot of our Terrier again, this time at the coaling stage north of the distillery buildings (1st image).

https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/search.html?q=Invergordon%20Naval%20Base

 

 

The US motor pool at Dalmore:

 

 

Photos from the Northern Barrage pdf:

The 6-wheel luggage brakes and to the far right a passenger coach might have been bringing the officers and their luggage to the base? Note the sailors in this view are British.

 

A merchant ship towed back to port after its bow was blown off by a German torpedo. Note coal wagons and shunting horse.

 

Various other pages from the Northern Barrage book:

Edited October 11, 2018 by Martin S-C

[Nearholmer]

Good to see that the Terriers were carrying proper route code discs!

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

As has already been said by others, this is a truly fascinating thread coupled to an incredible selection of images.  If, a couple of years ago, you had said to me that there were images of Adams Radials, Stroudley Terriers, and H&BR locos in service north of the border I would have suggested a vivid imagination was at work!

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[scottishlocos]

Martin

 

Sorry I cant help out of my era very interesting pictures my thoughts are that you could repost on scot-rail.co.uk it's forum for real trains and has gen and discussion about Scottish railways there might be somebody there who can help

 

Dave

Edited October 8, 2018 by scottishlocos

[micknich2003]

The H&BRly engine is of Class G3 and dipicts one of the ten engines built by Kitsons during 1908, these were H&BRly Nos142 to 151, all lasted well into LNERly days, and No151 served British Rlys until January 1949, but never carried its allocated number. 

[Martin S-C]

Thank you Mick, do you know which of the ten went to Invergordon in 1918 by any chance?

[micknich2003]

Thank you Mick, do you know which of the ten went to Invergordon in 1918 by any chance?

Martin, regretfully, nothing is known

[doilum]

In 1971 we had a great family holiday in Nigg. Much of our time was spent fishing from a semi derelict wooden jetty. On the jetty were standard gauge rails leading back to a large building. Was there a branch line round the bay from invergordon, or was this juust the simplest of internal railways?

We called back the following year but much had already been swept away to make room for the oil rig base.

[ossy5190]

Those are some truly fascinating photographs, thank you for sharing them. I am currently working on a a model of the former LBSCR No37 Sandown as she was in admiralty ownership for use in Grangemouth docks. I should firstly point out that the model is 'semi-freelance' based on assumptions and best guesses rather than a photograph but it is at least one idea of how the engine might have looked. I have came across a couple of references which state the loco was branded 'Mine Depot, Grangemouth No. 5' but with no reference to the colour. One interpretation could be that the colour was not worth recording because it was no different to what would be expected for a Terrier of that period ie. LBSCR Marsh livery, either that or it was so dirty nobody could tell what colour it really was! The other embellishments are of course pure conjecture but are all plausible (to my mind at least). The spark arrestor and canvas(?) sheets over the cab sides in the above photographs should be noted, now to add them to the model!

 

Ross

[Martin S-C]

Thanks for posting Ross and those are great pics of a really attractive model. I agree, I don't really see the Admiralty wasting time repainting engines and stock. They needed the work doing urgently and it would have been hard, relentless work so any livery would have become worn quite quickly.

 

The cloth sheet over the cab side of the Dalmore engine I imagine was purely because of the climate and/or latitude. Being on the coast near Cromarty winds could have shrieked down that estuary so some protection was needed by the crews. Alternatively, being so far north and the sun in autumn and spring being lower in the sky the sheet may have been a crude "sun visor".

 

An enlargement shows the tail lamps mounted on long stalks. Gives a better view of the spark arrestor as well. Good luck soldering that together in 4mm!

 

 

(EDIT: Image added)

Edited October 10, 2018 by Martin S-C

[Nearholmer]

The long stalks are standard LBSCR lamp irons, to permit the bewildering variety of lamp/board positions (and colours and shapes) that were needed to differentiate all the many different combinations of routes that were operated by that railway.

[keefer]

In 1971 we had a great family holiday in Nigg. Much of our time was spent fishing from a semi derelict wooden jetty. On the jetty were standard gauge rails leading back to a large building. Was there a branch line round the bay from invergordon, or was this juust the simplest of internal railways?

We called back the following year but much had already been swept away to make room for the oil rig base.

can't see any other railways on old maps - only the line going north from Invergordon

Whereabouts did you stay, near the ferry jetty or further up the bay?