Hornby - New tooling - 59' Bulleid 'Short' coaches

[Robin Brasher]

Coming back to colours I enclose a picture of a Hornby Southern 59' Bulleid coach against a Dulux Woodland Fern colour card. The colour seems reasonably close to Woodland Fern 1 on the card and to the malachite green colour sample in Southern Style After Nationalisation.

[Dunsignalling]

55 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

Coming back to colours I enclose a picture of a Hornby Southern 59' Bulleid coach against a Dulux Woodland Fern colour card. The colour seems reasonably close to Woodland Fern 1 on the card and to the malachite green colour sample in Southern Style After Nationalisation.

Thanks Robin, I'll stop fretting, then (not that I was anyway) but it's nice to know it's that close.

 

John

Edited August 20, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

13 hours ago, bazza. said:

Hello John,

 

My paint sample is a 100% un-weathered paint sample taken from a tin of original BR Coach green No 11 paint, ie BR Malachite green, at Eastleigh Loco Works Paint Shop. My paint sample has been stored in a brown envelope in draw and never exposed to day light, and never been touched by hand. It is my BR malachite green colour paint reference point. 

 

I don't know who Williamson's are, but if they are paint manufactures, perhaps they would have supplied the BR Coach Green paint No 11 BR Malachite Green to Eastleigh Paint Shop in 1962.

 

According to John Harvey of the Southern Railways Group Notebook, BR Coach green No 11 was slightly darker and more yellow the the SR malachite green. and has a Munsell paint reference (including varnish coats) about 2G 2.1/4, this has a DULUX reference about 70GY 6.5/15C .

 

The nearest paint shade to my paint sample is 90GY 8/187 DULUX Woodland Fern 1 which is very close to the unvarnished BR Coach green No 11 malachite, which in turn is very close to the colour of Hornby's Maunsell BR green coaches.

 

Incidentally my Hornby short Bulleid coaches in BR green livery have finally made it all the way to NZ, and they are a lighter shade of green to the Hornby Maunsell BR green, so perhaps I can pretend that they were always facing south on the journey to and from Waterloo to Exeter and so faded on both sides instead of one side that was normal on West of England coaching stock. Thankfully they are not as light in colour as the old Bachmann Bulleid 64' coaches, which I always thought were too light a shade of green.

 

Barry 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bazza

 

Thanks for your most comprehensive, explanation, which settled more than one question that had been whizzing around in my head. Nice to know there's a good sample of the real stuff still extant.

 

I attempted to post a detailed reply to your post this morning but it seems not to have "taken" and pretty much all of what I said has been covered by others since.

 

Regards

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, dibber25 said:

But the problem then comes when you adjust it by eye to suit something 1:76 the size of the real thing. If you don't adjust it, it will look too dark. If you do adjust it, your adjustment is likely to differ from someone else's. Yes, T. Williamson were paint suppliers to BR. (CJL)

Agreed, I once passed on some paint that I considered satisfactory in OO to a pal who modelled in N.

 

We both thought it looked all wrong on his smaller model, but when his and mine were placed side-by-side, the shade was clearly identical.

 

I've believed wholeheartedly in the "scale colour" principle ever since, with the caveat that any adjustment must take place under the same lighting as the finished model is intended to be viewed.

 

John

[bazza.]

Now we have discussed the colour of Malachite green and all its variations, lets get back to the topic of Hornby's new Bulleid coaches.

 

Nothing in this world of ours is perfect, but I believe that Hornby have done a very good job of making these RTR Bulleid coaches and the Maunsell coaches before them. I have built quite a few OO gauge coaches in my time, but I would be hard pushed to make a coach to the high standard that Hornby are making today.

 

I like to keep all of my coaching stock permanently coupled together and luckily for me so did the Southern Railway and the later Southern Region of BR.

So when my Hornby Bulleid 3 car set arrived, the first thing I did was to remove all of the tension lock couplings from every coach.  For the couplings within the set I replaced the tension lock couplings with Kadee NEM # 18 buck-eye couplings and on the outer ends of the set at the brake end I installed a pair of Hornby screw couplings (R7200)

 

In all of my Southern sets I have found that a combination of either Kadee #18 which are 8.63 mm long, or Kadee #17 @ 7.11 mm long, will permanently couple the coaches at a realistic distance apart. After all that is how the Southern Railway (and the LNER) used to couple Maunsell, Bulleid and early BR coaches together.

 

Now all I need to do is change the wheels on the bogies to 18.833 mm, but that's another story. 

 

Barry  

Edited August 21, 2019 by bazza.

[JSpencer]

Reading Gould, these coaches have an interesting history. It seems the material was assemble in 1940 and then stored to one side until the end (or almost the end) of the war. Given their mostly steel nature, it is amazed that this material was not used for some part of the war program. Especially given the shortage of steel early war (so short was the supply of steel that some RN cruisers had their armour plate ordered from the 3rd Reich pre-war, which they duly delivered just before the war started!).

 

They kept southern malachite until the mid 50s, though I guess they were debranded long before then, before being repaint into BR colours (and back to green again).

 

 

[JohnR]

18 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

Coming back to colours I enclose a picture of a Hornby Southern 59' Bulleid coach against a Dulux Woodland Fern colour card. The colour seems reasonably close to Woodland Fern 1 on the card and to the malachite green colour sample in Southern Style After Nationalisation.

 

 

Never mind what colour it is in the Dulux range - what colour is it in the Halfords range?

 

[Dunsignalling]

9 hours ago, bazza. said:

Now we have discussed the colour of Malachite green and all its variations, lets get back to the topic of Hornby's new Bulleid coaches.

 

Nothing in this world of ours is perfect, but I believe that Hornby have done a very good job of making these RTR Bulleid coaches and the Maunsell coaches before them. I have built quite a few OO gauge coaches in my time, but I would be hard pushed to make a coach to the high standard that Hornby are making today.

 

I like to keep all of my coaching stock permanently coupled together and luckily for me so did the Southern Railway and the later Southern Region of BR.

So when my Hornby Bulleid 3 car set arrived, the first thing I did was to remove all of the tension lock couplings from every coach.  For the couplings within the set I replaced the tension lock couplings with Kadee NEM # 18 buck-eye couplings and on the outer ends of the set at the brake end I installed a pair of Hornby screw couplings (R7200)

 

In all of my Southern sets I have found that a combination of either Kadee #18 which are 8.63 mm long, or Kadee #17 @ 7.11 mm long, will permanently couple the coaches at a realistic distance apart. After all that is how the Southern Railway (and the LNER) used to couple Maunsell, Bulleid and early BR coaches together.

 

Now all I need to do is change the wheels on the bogies to 18.833 mm, but that's another story. 

 

Barry  

If you want to close-couple these coaches, I'd recommend using Roco couplers rather than Kadees (#40270 is a pack of four which will do one 3-set, bulk pack of 50 is #40271) .

 

These are a shorter version of the Hornby copy included as "Alternative couplers" and will couple your coaches with the gangways touching on straight track, but still negotiate sectional track curves if you need to (in P4, presumably not). Up to you if you decide to retract the buffers (I have on my Maunsells but haven't got round to these yet). Try using the "free" Hornby ones first to see how well they work before committing yourself and closing up the gaps. You may not notice too much difference when pulling your coaches, but their behaviour when being propelled into carriage sidings etc. is transformed. 

 

I am a long time user (and fan) of Kadees, but in CCUs the Roco couplers work better because they lock the links together as a single rigid unit, which is how they are intended to function. Kadees allow some sideways movement that reduces the effectiveness off the CCUs, so I nowadays only use them on the ends of sets. 

 

John

Edited August 21, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[trevor7598]

I don't really want to wade too deeply into the malachite debate, but what I will say is that Bachmann had a 

livery sample of the forthcoming ' malachite ' Birdcages at the Bluebell model railway weekend, back in June.

To my eye the colour was spot on, ie. a bright green with a bluish hue.

Anyone visiting the Bachmann stand at an exhibition, see what you think, ( provided they have the sample with them !. )

[bazza.]

11 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

If you want to close-couple these coaches, I'd recommend using Roco couplers rather than Kadees (#40270 is a pack of four which will do one 3-set, bulk pack of 50 is #40271) .

 

These are a shorter version of the Hornby copy included as "Alternative couplers" and will couple your coaches with the gangways touching on straight track, but still negotiate sectional track curves if you need to (in P4, presumably not). Up to you if you decide to retract the buffers (I have on my Maunsells but haven't got round to these yet). Try using the "free" Hornby ones first to see how well they work before committing yourself and closing up the gaps. You may not notice too much difference when pulling your coaches, but their behaviour when being propelled into carriage sidings etc. is transformed. 

 

I am a long time user (and fan) of Kadees, but in CCUs the Roco couplers work better because they lock the links together as a single rigid unit, which is how they are intended to function. Kadees allow some sideways movement that reduces the effectiveness off the CCUs, so I nowadays only use them on the ends of sets. 

 

John

Thank you John,

 

I'll have a look at the Roco couplers that come with the coaches. The main reason that I have used the Kadee couplers is that the Southern used buckeye couplers on the Maunsell and Bulleid coaches and its easy to remove a coach by hand when they a coupled with Kadee couplers. Try removing one vehicle when coupled with tension lock couplings and the whole train is removed in one go.

 

I think that I read some where that the Southern removed the buffers of the inner coaches in some of the Maunsell sets, so permanently coupling them together with buckeye couplers only. I don't think that they did that with the Bulleid sets.

 

A word of warning for those thinking of removing the outer doors on the corridor connections. On some of my Hornby Maunsell coaches the outer doors seemed to be lightly glued to the corridor connections, and removing the doors can damaged the outer corridor connection rubbing plate.

 

Barry 

[bazza.]

20 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

 

Never mind what colour it is in the Dulux range - what colour is it in the Halfords range?

 

Hi JohnR,

 

BR/SR Green-----------------Jaguar British Racing Green

SR Malachite Green-------Ford Laural Green : Daihatsu Tropical Green

SR Dark Olive Green------Land Rover Coniston Green

SR Suburban Green-------Jaguar British Racing Green

What car are you painting ?

 

Regards

Barry

[JohnR]

36 minutes ago, bazza. said:

Hi JohnR,

 

BR/SR Green-----------------Jaguar British Racing Green

SR Malachite Green-------Ford Laural Green : Daihatsu Tropical Green

SR Dark Olive Green------Land Rover Coniston Green

SR Suburban Green-------Jaguar British Racing Green

What car are you painting ?

 

Regards

Barry

 

Looking at those options, I'm going for a second hand SR Malachite Green....

[Wickham Green]

2 hours ago, bazza. said:

BR/SR Green-----------------Jaguar British Racing Green

...

...

SR Suburban Green-------Jaguar British Racing Green

....

Never realised the Southern painted our suburbs in B.R. Green No.11 ......................... talk about painting the town red !

[truffy]

9 hours ago, bazza. said:

I think that I read some where that the Southern removed the buffers of the inner coaches in some of the Maunsell sets, so permanently coupling them together with buckeye couplers only. I don't think that they did that with the Bulleid sets.

 

Unfortunately, the photos that I could find online were largely unclear from the perspective/distance that they were taken or are of carriages in preservation. A couple of photos of in-use do show buffers, but that doesn't mean that they weren't removed from some sets I suppose.

 

But this, from SEMG, is interesting:

 

Quote

When using the automatic coupling the buffers need to be in the "short" position, and when using the coupling hook [for older stock] in the "long" position.

 

Could it be that placing buffers in the short position was mistaken for removing them?

[Nick C]

16 minutes ago, truffy said:

 

Unfortunately, the photos that I could find online were largely unclear from the perspective/distance that they were taken or are of carriages in preservation. A couple of photos of in-use do show buffers, but that doesn't mean that they weren't removed from some sets I suppose.

 

But this, from SEMG, is interesting:

 

 

Could it be that placing buffers in the short position was mistaken for removing them?

 

I think (don't have any references to hand) that @bazza. is correct - there were some Maunsell sets without intermediate buffers - though I think it was from new rather than being removed later, and they were later fitted to allow the sets to be reformed.

 

The MK1 based EMUs were of course built without intermediate buffers - they were never intended to be split or reformed so why bother. Interestingly I believe the Maunsell EMUs (4-COR etc) were screw-coupled throughout, despite the fact that the contemporary loco-hauled vehicles were all fitted with buckeyes...

[Wickham Green]

4 hours ago, Nick C said:

....... The MK1 based EMUs were of course built without intermediate buffers - they were never intended to be split or reformed so why bother. Interestingly I believe the Maunsell EMUs (4-COR etc) were screw-coupled throughout, despite the fact that the contemporary loco-hauled vehicles were all fitted with buckeyes...

The few EMUs built to Mk II standards too ( AM10 )........ and all the DEMUs too - from Hastings to HST !

 

Yes, all the Southern era corridor EMUs has screw couplings throughout and the non-gangwayed sets a single buffer with three-link coupling below ............ some of the early Southern suburban units started out with a form of buckeye within set - but these weren't up to the stresses of electric traction and were replaced.

[bazza.]

13 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

Never realised the Southern painted our suburbs in B.R. Green No.11 ......................... talk about painting the town red !

Or Halford  Jaguar British Racing Green !!!

Edited August 22, 2019 by bazza.

[bazza.]

18 hours ago, Nick C said:

 

I think (don't have any references to hand) that @bazza. is correct - there were some Maunsell sets without intermediate buffers - though I think it was from new rather than being removed later, and they were later fitted to allow the sets to be reformed.

 

The MK1 based EMUs were of course built without intermediate buffers - they were never intended to be split or reformed so why bother. Interestingly I believe the Maunsell EMUs (4-COR etc) were screw-coupled throughout, despite the fact that the contemporary loco-hauled vehicles were all fitted with buckeyes...

 

In An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches, Page 55, Mike King wrote " but a few three-coach sets lost their intermediate side buffers experimentally from 1928 onwards".

 

And in Maunsell's SR Steam Carriage Stock, Page 87, David Gould wrote " With permanently-coupled set trains it was found that buffers of the intermediate coaches could safely be removed, and several of the 3-coach sets had been modified by 1934. Those identified included Nos. 392, 395 to 399 and 446".

That's 7 sets, I wonder if any other sets were also modified!

 

Barry

Edited August 23, 2019 by bazza.

[Ian J.]

Interesting about the Maunsells from the 390-399 series having intermediate buffers removed. Do 'we' know if that was a permanent change that survived through to BR(S) and scrapping? If so, then my Hornby models will need to be modified as I believe they have the intermediate buffers.

[Robin Brasher]

Richard Burkin has written an excellent review of the Bulleid 59' coaches on pages 16 and 17 of the September Railway Magazine Guide to Modelling which being free is excellent value for money.

 

The review covers details of the prototype, model coach bogies, underframe, bogie and wheels including details of the weight, livery and finish.

 

One point he makes is that the finish is eggshell on the model whereas it is gloss on the prototype. The Hornby Dublo coaches had a gloss finish and flush glazing and I don't think that their finish has ever been surpassed for their coaches except the Southern Region ones which were completely the wrong shade of green. Even so they had a charm of their own.

 

Today's picture shows 'Royal Mail' with Set 965 on the Wimborne Railway Society's track. One of the members said that it should have two sets of coaches with a Maunsell dining car in the middle but I have not got enough storage space in my flat for this set, let alone another set.

[bazza.]

13 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

Richard Burkin has written an excellent review of the Bulleid 59' coaches on pages 16 and 17 of the September Railway Magazine Guide to Modelling which being free is excellent value for money.

 

The review covers details of the prototype, model coach bogies, underframe, bogie and wheels including details of the weight, livery and finish.

 

One point he makes is that the finish is eggshell on the model whereas it is gloss on the prototype. The Hornby Dublo coaches had a gloss finish and flush glazing and I don't think that their finish has ever been surpassed for their coaches except the Southern Region ones which were completely the wrong shade of green. Even so they had a charm of their own.

 

Today's picture shows 'Royal Mail' with Set 965 on the Wimborne Railway Society's track. One of the members said that it should have two sets of coaches with a Maunsell dining car in the middle but I have not got enough storage space in my flat for this set, let alone another set.

Hi Robin,

You might need two coaches, as the Maunsell dinning firsts were normally paired with a Maunsell dinning open third saloon.

 

Regards

Barry

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by bazza.

[bazza.]

On 20/08/2019 at 23:26, trevor7598 said:

Yes I totally agree, a 4 SUB would ideal. If a 47XX type was chosen Hornby would only need two body mouldings.

Underframe wise many parts are common to BIL/HAL.

They would really have to work harder on the glazing though, the more I look at my ' shortie ' set the worse it gets,

I noticed yesterday that the toilet windows are not flush glazed at all. What bugs me is that Hornby have got flush

glazing spot on in the past, different factory maybe.

 

Consider a decent 4SUB already sold.

 

Hi Trevor,

 

Or how about one of the seven 2-Hal units  (Nos. 2693-2699) that were built to Bulleid's coach profile, the forerunner of Bulleid's 4-Sub's unit numbers 4111-4120.

 

Barry

Edited August 23, 2019 by bazza.

[Ceptic]

The  BR(S) 1963 (Summer) Formation and Allocation of Corridor Sets show three car Set Nos. 963 to 972 (incl) allocated to the 'S&D'.  The remainder had mainly Maunsell vehicles added, sourced from the large pool of 'Loose' coaches available at that time.

 

Strengthened 4 - Set as follows :-

Set 977   

Allocated:  Eastbourne / Hastings -- Birmingham

2869  BSK  (B)(59')

  ----    SK*  (M)

5723  CK   (B)(59')

2870  BSK (B)(59')

 

Strengthened 6 - Sets as follows :-

Set 974   

Allocated:  Margate -- Wolverhampton

2863  BSK  (B)(59')

1211  SK*  (M)

5720  CK   (B)(59')

1865  SK* (M)

1887  SK* (M)

2864  BSK (B)(59')

 

Set 975 

Allocated:  Margate -- Wolverhampton

2865  BSK  (B)(59')

1212  SK*  (M)

5721  CK   (B)(59')

1268  SK* (M)

1813  SK* (M)

2866  BSK (B)(59')

 

Set 976 

Allocated:  Eastbourne / Hastings -- Birmingham  

2867  BSK (B)(59')

1225  SK* (M)

5722  CK  (B)(59')

 ----    SO* (M)

 ----    SO* (M)

2868  BSK (B)(59')

 

Strengthened 8 - Sets as follows :-

Set 973 

Allocated:  Waterloo -- Salisbury / Waterloo -- Bournemouth -- Weymouth / Through services to other Regions.

2861  BSK (B)(59')

1206  SK* (M)

1863  SK* (M)

5900  CK* (B)(64'-6")(10 1/4" Vents)

5719  CK (B)(59')

1898  SK* (M)

1915  SK* (M)

2862  BSK (B)(59')

 

Set 978

Allocated:  Waterloo -- Salisbury / Waterloo -- Bournemouth -- Weymouth / Through services to other Regions.

2871  BSK (B)(59')

 ----     SK* (M)

 ----     SK* (M)

5806  CK *  (B)(64'-6")(10 1/4" Vents))

5724  CK  (B)(59')

 ----     SK* (M)

 ----     SK* (M)

2872  BSK (B)(59')

 

Set 979

Allocated:  Waterloo --Salisbury / Waterloo -- Bournemouth -- Weymouth / Through services to other Regions.

2873  BSK (B)(59')

 ----     SK* (M)

 ----     SK* (M)

5876  CK*  (B)(64'-6")(10 1/4" Vents)

5725  CK   (B)(59')

 ----     SK* (M)

 ----     SK* (M)

2874  BSK (B)(59')

 

Set 980

Allocated:  Waterloo -- Salisbury / Waterloo -- Bournemouth -- Weymouth / Through services to other Regions.

2875  BSK  (B)(59')

1803  SK*  (M)

1804  SK*  (M)

5874  CK*  (B)(64-6")(10 1/4" Vents)

5726  CK    (B)(59')

1805  SK*  (M)

1808  SK*  (M)

2876  BSK  (B)(59')

 

Key :-

(B)  =  Bulleid.

(M) = Maunsell.

  *   =   Loose.

----  =  Unspecified.

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Ceptic
Typo.

[JSpencer]

On 23/08/2019 at 12:19, Robin Brasher said:

Richard Burkin has written an excellent review of the Bulleid 59' coaches on pages 16 and 17 of the September Railway Magazine Guide to Modelling which being free is excellent value for money.

 

The review covers details of the prototype, model coach bogies, underframe, bogie and wheels including details of the weight, livery and finish.

 

One point he makes is that the finish is eggshell on the model whereas it is gloss on the prototype. The Hornby Dublo coaches had a gloss finish and flush glazing and I don't think that their finish has ever been surpassed for their coaches except the Southern Region ones which were completely the wrong shade of green. Even so they had a charm of their own.

 

Today's picture shows 'Royal Mail' with Set 965 on the Wimborne Railway Society's track. One of the members said that it should have two sets of coaches with a Maunsell dining car in the middle but I have not got enough storage space in my flat for this set, let alone another set.

 

Looks like I was not alone in buying a set to put behind an SR original Merchant Navy. Technically, the coaches arrived after 1945 which is after the fronts (and other details) of 21C1  and 21C3 had changed. However materials for coaches had been around since 1940 to build them, so mine is more of a what if they had appeared sooner (or the MNs retained their original fronts later). 

As they retained their SR colours into the mid 50s (though doubtless debranded before then), I'll get away with them in early nationalisation days too. They make a break from all my other SR stock in purely BR colours.

 

 

[Mallard60022]

On ‎23‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 11:19, Robin Brasher said:

Richard Burkin has written an excellent review of the Bulleid 59' coaches on pages 16 and 17 of the September Railway Magazine Guide to Modelling which being free is excellent value for money.

 

The review covers details of the prototype, model coach bogies, underframe, bogie and wheels including details of the weight, livery and finish.

 

One point he makes is that the finish is eggshell on the model whereas it is gloss on the prototype. The Hornby Dublo coaches had a gloss finish and flush glazing and I don't think that their finish has ever been surpassed for their coaches except the Southern Region ones which were completely the wrong shade of green. Even so they had a charm of their own.

 

Today's picture shows 'Royal Mail' with Set 965 on the Wimborne Railway Society's track. One of the members said that it should have two sets of coaches with a Maunsell dining car in the middle but I have not got enough storage space in my flat for this set, let alone another set.

One of your members wasn't quite correct I believe, if he/she was suggesting it ".....should have 2 Sets' and a Maunsell Dining Car 'in the middle". The formation would have been different with, I am certain, at least some sort of Open (3rd?) next to the/a Dining Car, (which was probably a First). Two Sets maybe but probably not 'just'  two 3 Car Sets. However I await to be educated otherwise.

 

P

Edited August 26, 2019 by Mallard60022