Hornby - New tooling - LSWR Warner brake 'new van'

[Dunsignalling]

The Adams Radial was a maid of all work in LSWR days when it was retired to branch lines and was used on freight trains. The LSWR Terrier does not look out of place on a freight train.

 

Unfortunately the 700 looked different from the Hornby model in LSWR days so it would need more than LSWR lettering.

Urie began to modify the 700s before the grouping, albeit not long before the grouping.

 

There's a kit (Golden Arrow Models) to convert the Hornby 4F to an Adams 0395 that I've been contemplating for a while, but I model the BR era anyway.

 

From Hornby's perspective, though, the easy LSWR freight loco would be the original S15.

 

John

[Robin Brasher]

Perhaps I need to buy another 700 from Hattons bargains and re-letter it.

[Compound2632]

Wait for the inevitable comments that it's too modern. 

 

Built between 1915 and 1921 if anyone is wondering.

 

 

 

Jason

 

It is too modern! For the RTR manufacturers, by and large and with a few exceptions, pre-Grouping stretches back to 1913 or so, not to the c. 1889 - 1907 Golden Age of Britain's railways.

[GreenGiraffe22]

Were these always rooted deep  in LSWR territory or would they venture over to LBSCR territory in grouping days?

[railroadbill]

Excellent! Well done Hornby, now on my list to pre-order.

[JohnR]

I think the LSWR bought a terrier at one point too so it's still a possibility for the future.

 

Bought two for the Lyme Regis branch. Numbered 734 and 735 by the LSWR (previously 46 Newington and 68 Clapham).

[barrymx5]

I think the LSWR bought a terrier at one point too so it's still a possibility for the future.

Like this one?

[barrymx5]

Urie began to modify the 700s before the grouping, albeit not long before the grouping.

 

There's a kit (Golden Arrow Models) to convert the Hornby 4F to an Adams 0395 that I've been contemplating for a while, but I model the BR era anyway.

 

From Hornby's perspective, though, the easy LSWR freight loco would be the original S15.

 

John

An original S15 sounds good to me.

0395 kit builds are still around but they are shown up by more modern 700s for example

[Wickham Green]

Were these always rooted deep  in LSWR territory or would they venture over to LBSCR territory in grouping days?

If you can blow-up the images you'll probably find that they were barred from much of the Hastings line ( only ) .................. so you probably won't have to invoke Rule 1 for the central Division !

[GreenGiraffe22]

If you can blow-up the images you'll probably find that they were barred from much of the Hastings line ( only ) .................. so you probably won't have to invoke Rule 1 for the central Division !

I wondered because a lot of exLSWR carriages, particularly 3 sets seemed to end up on the Brighton - Portsmouth /Horsham routes, I wondered if it was the same for goods,

[Edwardian]

Like this one?

 

Two, but neither looked like that!

[Wickham Green]

I wondered because a lot of exLSWR carriages, particularly 3 sets seemed to end up on the Brighton - Portsmouth /Horsham routes, I wondered if it was the same for goods,

..... as did 'Chatham' carriages - such as 'birdcage' trios.  

 

The 'Brighton' had a far more generous loading gauge than the other Southern's constituents so its more modern coaching stock - the 'Balloons' - were too big for any sort of through working ; they fell out of favour and disappeared once the main line was electrified. Much of the earlier bogie stock was formed of superannuated four/six wheel bodies paired on bogie frames and already due for the bonfire - while the rest ( apart from a handful of P/P sets and IoW transfers ) went to make electric sets.

 

Goods stock also seems to have been rather elderly and few 'Brighton' vehicles lasted to nationalisation - a number of the 20T brakes had been modified for the Engineers and very few others survived by that date ...... whereas the South Western vans - even timber-framed Road Vans - and 'Chatham' Dancehalls went on for a lot longer.

[barrymx5]

I have been waiting for the Cambrian kit for ages so this is very welcome. I can now replace my, not very good, conversion from a Trix, LMS?,  brake van.

I can also replace my 1980s attempt at scratch building. Obviously my major problem was finding LSWR transfers.

[Dunsignalling]

..... as did 'Chatham' carriages - such as 'birdcage' trios.  

 

The 'Brighton' had a far more generous loading gauge than the other Southern's constituents so its more modern coaching stock - the 'Balloons' - were too big for any sort of through working ; they fell out of favour and disappeared once the main line was electrified. Much of the earlier bogie stock was formed of superannuated four/six wheel bodies paired on bogie frames and already due for the bonfire - while the rest ( apart from a handful of P/P sets and IoW transfers ) went to make electric sets.

 

Goods stock also seems to have been rather elderly and few 'Brighton' vehicles lasted to nationalisation - a number of the 20T brakes had been modified for the Engineers and very few others survived by that date ...... whereas the South Western vans - even timber-framed Road Vans - and 'Chatham' Dancehalls went on for a lot longer.

Few, if any, features on LBSCR goods wagons conformed to RCH specifications and the need to source specific LBSC spare parts in the event of repairs becoming necessary meant that they seldom worked far off their "home turf" and were logical targets for early withdrawal. 

 

The main reason so many of them ended up on the IoW in Southern Railway days was to prevent them straying. 

 

The late-period brake van, as modelled by Hornby was very much exceptional. Incidentally, the Engineers also used a few unmodified ones.  

 

John

Edited January 8, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Nick Holliday]

Few, if any, features on LBSCR goods wagons conformed to RCH specifications and the need to source specific LBSC spare parts in the event of repairs becoming necessary meant that they seldom worked far off their "home turf" and were logical targets for early withdrawal. 

 

The main reason so many of them ended up on the IoW in Southern Railway days was to prevent them straying. 

 

The late-period brake van, as modelled by Hornby was very much exceptional. Incidentally, the Engineers also used a few unmodified ones.  

 

John

..... as did 'Chatham' carriages - such as 'birdcage' trios.  

 

The 'Brighton' had a far more generous loading gauge than the other Southern's constituents so its more modern coaching stock - the 'Balloons' - were too big for any sort of through working ; they fell out of favour and disappeared once the main line was electrified. Much of the earlier bogie stock was formed of superannuated four/six wheel bodies paired on bogie frames and already due for the bonfire - while the rest ( apart from a handful of P/P sets and IoW transfers ) went to make electric sets.

 

Goods stock also seems to have been rather elderly and few 'Brighton' vehicles lasted to nationalisation - a number of the 20T brakes had been modified for the Engineers and very few others survived by that date ...... whereas the South Western vans - even timber-framed Road Vans - and 'Chatham' Dancehalls went on for a lot longer.

Although I don't want to go too far off-topic, I must defend the Brighton against this dreadful calumny.

The earlier bogie coaches were all new builds, on, normally, 48 foot underframes. In the 1900's the balloon stock appeared at, generally, 54 feet long. It was only after this phase that the programme of placing six wheel bodies (not four wheeled) on bogie underframes started, and there was a lot of new build included in this as well. So not exactly "due for the bonfire!" Part of this perception problem is that the basic design of the carriages, in terms of panelling etc., was virtually unchanged from Stroudley's days, whereas on most other lines there was a progression, often in quantum leaps, which made stock built in the twenties look completely different from Victorian items, such as Dean clerestories v Churchward toplights.

There was a similar perception regarding goods stock. The basic designs had been set in Stroudley's day, if not earlier, and, apart from improvements in braking and higher roof profiles on vans, a brand new 1922 wagon looked, to all intents and purposes, identical to one from 1880. This was partly because the Victorian designs looked advanced for their time, and were fit for purpose. The main exceptions were the brake vans, with perhaps four different phases in design - the lightweight Stroudley vans being, perhaps, his one lapse.

The goods stock wasn't tied to the area at all, despite their non standard features. In fact I would say that the LBSC initials could be seen across much of Great Britain. There is a famous view of some at Inverness, and some in Wales, whilst many a photo of busy yards in the Midlands or East Anglia has a Brighton wagon somewhere, a bit like Where's Wally, the distinctive rounded ends of opens being a give away.

[Compound2632]

The goods stock wasn't tied to the area at all, despite their non standard features. In fact I would say that the LBSC initials could be seen across much of Great Britain. There is a famous view of some at Inverness, and some in Wales, whilst many a photo of busy yards in the Midlands or East Anglia has a Brighton wagon somewhere, a bit like Where's Wally, the distinctive rounded ends of opens being a give away.

 

... post Great War pooling, of course. 

[Wickham Green]

Has anyone commented on the liveries yet ?

 

The mention of 'bauxite' in connection with the LSWR vans is rather worrying ! - they should be the same colour the Southern adopted and this should be 'plain chocolate' as in post #38 - Hornby have not said otherwise so I guess none of these vans are meant to represent weathered / faded vehicles.

Though the options were more limited for the early and late models it's a shame neither of the Southern vans will have post-'36 insignia ................ maybe a consideration for a future release ? - THEN they'll get my order ( unless I re-do one first !!?! ).

[Dunsignalling]

Has anyone commented on the liveries yet ?

 

The mention of 'bauxite' in connection with the LSWR vans is rather worrying ! - they should be the same colour the Southern adopted and this should be 'plain chocolate' as in post #38 - Hornby have not said otherwise so I guess none of these vans are meant to represent weathered / faded vehicles.

Though the options were more limited for the early and late models it's a shame neither of the Southern vans will have post-'36 insignia ................ maybe a consideration for a future release ? - THEN they'll get my order ( unless I re-do one first !!?! ).

Bear in mind that only vans repainted post-1936 would have received post-1936 markings. SR wagons were generally only repainted when it (or a full overhaul) became "necessary" and one painted just prior to the change would have kept the early markings for several years after the new style came in. 

 

The waters are further muddied by photographic evidence that some Queen Mary brakes carried the older lettering, despite having been completed after the new style had been introduced, suggesting that the cutover was not immediate.

 

It wouldn't be at all surprising if a few of the "New Vans" still retained the large SR when they entered BR ownership.

 

As with the Cattle wagons, I'd expect that introduction of models with alternative liveries/markings will be phased over more than one year

 

John

Edited January 10, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[barrymx5]

Has anyone commented on the liveries yet ?

 

The mention of 'bauxite' in connection with the LSWR vans is rather worrying ! - they should be the same colour the Southern adopted and this should be 'plain chocolate' as in post #38 - ( unless I re-do one first !!?! ).

Thank you. In the 80s I built several LSWR Wagons and did some research to get the right colour. HMRS brought out their Southern Liveries publication about that time and I followed that. Very useful.

[Wickham Green]

Thank you. In the 80s I built several LSWR Wagons and did some research to get the right colour. HMRS brought out their Southern Liveries publication about that time and I followed that. Very useful.

Make sure you have / read the 1990 Addendum too - still available from the HMRS.

[Steamport Southport]

Has anyone commented on the liveries yet ?

 

The mention of 'bauxite' in connection with the LSWR vans is rather worrying ! - they should be the same colour the Southern adopted and this should be 'plain chocolate' as in post #38 - Hornby have not said otherwise so I guess none of these vans are meant to represent weathered / faded vehicles.

Though the options were more limited for the early and late models it's a shame neither of the Southern vans will have post-'36 insignia ................ maybe a consideration for a future release ? - THEN they'll get my order ( unless I re-do one first !!?! ).

 

Where does it say bauxite? Can't see it mentioned anywhere.

 

Proper livery is like this.

 

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Wagon%20Kit%20Pages/LSWR%2024%20Ton%20%20Brake%20Van.html

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green]

Where does it say bauxite? Can't see it mentioned anywhere.

 

Proper livery is like this.

 

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Wagon%20Kit%20Pages/LSWR%2024%20Ton%20%20Brake%20Van.html

 

 

 

 

Jason

Hmmmm .................... no Hornby's announcement doesn't use that word - I wonder where Hattons got it from ? ............................................ Sorry Hornby ! 

[NHY 581]

I will be looking for a couple of these in each livery I expect, starting with BR Grey. 

 

Rob. 

[Right Away]

Another very useful goods vehicle, well done Hornby.

 

From a detailing point of view, does any member know if any of these carried a through vacuum connection in their later lives?

[autocoach]

Well I can understand why the Cambrian SR/LSWR 1543 kit was cancelled or dropped from their list of future projects.

 

I shall miss not getting to build a plastic kit.  Maybe I will have to dismantle the Hornby one and put it back together.  Kit building and bashing is my main hobby activity these days.