Penalty Fares

[Coryton]

29 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

 

I have indeed sought out the guard on a train and been advised to fare dodge because it was easier than issuing a ticket.

 

Yes I saw that above.

 

I've had similar experiences which tend to make me a bit nervous because, aside from the moral aspects, I'm not sure that "The guard told me not to bother with a ticket" would go down too well if it came to it.

[Coryton]

1 minute ago, Rivercider said:

During the course of my 30 year railway career I commuted by train for the vast majority of it, on all three shifts.

Over the years I overheard all sorts of excuses, sometimes the passenger seemed seemed to have genuinely lost a ticket. 

Far more often though there were all manner of reasons for no ticket, often the passenger had walked to the end of the train,

for no other apparent reason than to avoid the ticket check, or feigned sleep, or lack of English language. 

 

 

That reminds me of an unfortunate experience I nearly had. It was on a GNER or NXEC train (I forget which) from Scotland to London. The guard came past while I was in the toilet and (rather rudely i thought) banged on the toilet door to get me to come out and show my ticket. Now I know that people can and do hide in the loos to avoid having to pay, but I'd only just gone in and it's the only time I've had that happen (and at the time I was doing the journey every week). So when I came out I wasn't very happy. That would of course be the time I couldn't find where I'd put my ticket, and I'm not sure the guard was convinced it was genuine (I am in fact not that good an actor...)

 

Fortunately after a bit more rooting around it turned up before he had written out the unpaid fare notice or whatever you call it and all was well. But it could have turned out somewhat differently - the full fare for that journey was rather high.

[Hobby]

One of the more common dodges... We even see them looking up and walking out when we arrive at the other end of the carriage... I've lost count of the number of people I've extracted from toilets who then couldn't produce a ticket, probably near 95%... So that's why we are a little suspicious... Don't take it personally...

 

(Then there's how many people can hide in a toilet competition... My record is 10 in a Voyager toilet, though I believe others have found more...)

Edited February 9, 2019 by Hobby

[Coryton]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

(Then there's how many people can hide in a toilet competition... My record is 10 in a Voyager toilet, though I believe others have found more...)

 

An unintended feature of accessible toilets, I suppose.

 

I'm assuming that if you have a 95% hit rate you don't just knock on the toilet door every time you go past, which is what that guard seemed to be doing.

 

[WIMorrison]

2 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

I'd agree, but (serious question) what should a passenger do if the guard stays holed up in the rear cab?

 

I've always assumed that if the guard is too occupied to come through the train for commercial duties then I should leave them to it, but is one expected to go banging on the cab door? 

 

Personally I would report him to the TOC management - I already pay sufficient for my rail fares without subsidising fare dodgers and if the conductor isn't checking or collecting fares then he is condoning fare evasion and should be admonished for dereliction of his duties.

[Hobby]

9 hours ago, Coryton said:

I'm assuming that if you have a 95% hit rate you don't just knock on the toilet door every time you go past, which is what that guard seemed to be doing.

 

Depends on the run, certain known dodging sections I may well do, others I'll just finish the check and then hang around outside until they appear... If they are in more than 10 minutes I tend to get complaints from other passengers that they need to use the toilet so have an excuse to knock! I can understand his actions, though, sometimes you are in sight of the toilet and will see someone get on the train and make a beeline for the loo, if they've got on at a station with facilities on the platform then it arouses your curiosity somewhat! Each day is different!!

[newbryford]

On 09/02/2019 at 20:42, Coryton said:

 

I'd agree, but (serious question) what should a passenger do if the guard stays holed up in the rear cab?

 

I've always assumed that if the guard is too occupied to come through the train for commercial duties then I should leave them to it, but is one expected to go banging on the cab door? 

 

On 09/02/2019 at 23:26, WIMorrison said:

 

Personally I would report him to the TOC management - I already pay sufficient for my rail fares without subsidising fare dodgers and if the conductor isn't checking or collecting fares then he is condoning fare evasion and should be admonished for dereliction of his duties.

 

It's quite rife on Northern (and other TOCs) for lack of on-train revenue protection to be carried out after a certain time of night.

The hassle of dealing with unruly (i.e. drunk) passengers isn't worth it. [*]

 

And I'm sure management wouldn't be too bothered about their staff sitting in the rear cab as the consequences of assaulted staff having time off is more than the missed revenue.............

 

[*] I had posed a similar "lack of revenue protection" question a few years ago.

 

[LBRJ]

14 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

 

It's quite rife on Northern (and other TOCs) for lack of on-train revenue protection to be carried out after a certain time of night.

The hassle of dealing with unruly (i.e. drunk) passengers isn't worth it. [*]

 

And I'm sure management wouldn't be too bothered about their staff sitting in the rear cab as the consequences of assaulted staff having time off is more than the missed revenue.............

 

[*] I had posed a similar "lack of revenue protection" question a few years ago.

 

 

When  I worked for what is now Northern that was what the Trains Inspectors told us guards......

As well as having a "few" other things to do on a train besides revenue protection it was basically "why get your head kicked in for a £1.70 fare?"

[LBRJ]

On 09/02/2019 at 23:26, WIMorrison said:

 

Personally I would report him to the TOC management - I already pay sufficient for my rail fares without subsidising fare dodgers and if the conductor isn't checking or collecting fares then he is condoning fare evasion and should be admonished for dereliction of his duties.

 

How long were you a guard for?

You seem very familiar with the rulebook  

[phil-b259]

On 08/02/2019 at 09:31, njee20 said:

But as has actually been recommended in this thread you have no proof that people are being honest about their destination. Jump on train in Penzance, get off at Paddington, go to ticket office: "hi, ticket from Ealing Broadway please". Just because you've sought to buy a ticket doens't mean you're not trying to avoid paying.

 

This was a regular occurrence at London Victoria when gates went in but they hadn't yet got round to fitting them to the likes of Battersea Park.

 

The analysis of passenger journeys based on ticket sales made for intresting reading....

[Steamport Southport]

On ‎09‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 22:14, Hobby said:

One of the more common dodges... We even see them looking up and walking out when we arrive at the other end of the carriage... I've lost count of the number of people I've extracted from toilets who then couldn't produce a ticket, probably near 95%... So that's why we are a little suspicious... Don't take it personally...

 

(Then there's how many people can hide in a toilet competition... My record is 10 in a Voyager toilet, though I believe others have found more...)

 

How anyone could spend more than a couple of seconds in a Voyager or Pendolino toilet is my question. 

 

Pendolino Pong as it was called in the media. 

 

 

Jason

[royaloak]

I thought the rules were you had to buy a ticket at the first opportunity, which in this example would be the ticket machine.

If you cannot use the machine (it being card only and you want to use cash or it being out of order) then you must get a permit to travel (if available) and then as per above, or am I missing something and 'I always used to buy on board or at my destination' doesnt change the fact that TOCs are now starting to enforce the rules.

 

Or am I missing something?

[royaloak]

On 08/02/2019 at 08:37, Zomboid said:

Penalty fares are surely for people trying to avoid paying. Applying it to someone who is genuinely trying to buy a ticket, no matter what they've written into the small print of the rules, is a misuse of the concept. Particularly if they do things like putting a machine in an inconvenient place and then insist that your use it before boarding the hourly train service.

 

A passenger boarding a train without a ticket should seek out the conductor rather than waiting to see if they'd come through, though.

Nope, thats what MG11s are for, a penalty fare is just that, a penalty because you made a mistake (genuine or otherwise), but if it is thought you are trying it on or have failed to attempt to comply with the rules then an MG11 will be filled in with a view to prosecution.

[WIMorrison]

5 hours ago, LBRJ said:

 

How long were you a guard for?

You seem very familiar with the rulebook  

 

You don’t need to have been a ‘guard’ to know the law or what is morally correct.

[WIMorrison]

5 hours ago, LBRJ said:

 

How long were you a guard for?

You seem very familiar with the rulebook  

 

You don’t need to have been a ‘guard’ to know the law or what is morally correct.

[jonhall]

On 06/02/2019 at 21:39, Andrew1974 said:

 

My teenage kids use the train more often than I do, but mostly local journeys to the local town, so they buy their tickets on the day.  Our local station (which I rarely, if ever, use) is unmanned but a few months ago (October) a ticket machine was installed and the station became part of a Northerns Penalty Fare scheme (so I have just discovered).

 

My my kids have continued to travel in the same way they always have, get to station, get on train, buy ticket from guard, or if no guard comes down the train at the destination station (which is manned). 

 

 

I do find myself wondering why your kids thought that the new ticket machine provided at many thousands of pounds cost to the railways, wasn't applicable to them? It doesn't seem rocket science to me, that if there is now a means to buy a ticket before travel, then that's what they should have done.

 

My local station has had a ticket machine (only on the London bound platform) and been in a penalty fare area for ages, and on the rare occasions when I've been unable to buy a tickect from the machine, I use the information call point to contact the control room to tell them the ticket machine isn't working (so there is a record I've tried). I also tend to talk to the guard as I board to try and buy a ticket from them, as its much quicker at my end destination if I have one, but often I discover they don't do revenue anymore.

 

Jon

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

 

You don’t need to have been a ‘guard’ to know the law or what is morally correct.

 

Nor do you know why the Guard wasn't doing tickets at that point... It's easy to criticise when yiu don't know the background or have never done the job....

 

I can think of many reasons why he would be in the back cab and still doing his "duties".... Probably filling out an Assault form from the previous "customer" he had requested buy a ticket... 

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

 

You don’t need to have been a ‘guard’ to know the law or what is morally correct.

 

Nor do you know why the Guard wasn't doing tickets at that point... It's easy to criticise when you don't know the background or have never done the job....

 

I can think of many reasons why he would be in the back cab and still doing his "duties".... Probably filling out an Assault form from the previous "customer" he had requested buy a ticket... 

[Robert Shrives]

I recall times at both Saltley and BHM when we ran out of servicable ticket machines - and went off with excess fare books to earn the money.  In 1993 IIRC SY conductors took over a quarter of a Million pounds on the excess pad alone - then these were withdrawn.  

 

current systems might seem better but tales of short battery life and cheap and nasty printers exist so some times guards cannot now do revenue as TOC facilities are not up to it.   The increase in phone based ticketing does not help if the onboard crew machines do not have battery life to scan! Sadly left and right hand as not many units give a staff phone charging point and some issuing equipment needs bespoke chargeing docks!      

[Coryton]

35 minutes ago, jonhall said:

 

I do find myself wondering why your kids thought that the new ticket machine provided at many thousands of pounds cost to the railways, wasn't applicable to them? It doesn't seem rocket science to me, that if there is now a means to buy a ticket before travel, then that's what they should have done.

 

I find it very hard to understand a point of view like that.

 

Most passengers don't read through the conditions of carriage and legislation and nor should they have to. I'm sure most people seeing a ticket machine on a platform realise that it's applicable to them - but how are they supposed to know it's compulsory?

 

I don't think it is in any way reasonable to expect passengers to think along the lines of : "Oh look - a ticket machine. That means that although I have been buying tickets all my life on the train or at the other end, that has suddenly become a criminal offence." Then add the fact that guards carry on selling tickets as if nothing has changed, rather than warning that they should have been bought before travelling.

 

The company could have put up clear posters beforehand letting people know that once a ticket machine has appeared it has to be used. They could have had staff (while showing leniency in actually issuing tickets on trains or at the far end for a while) warn that the ticket should have been bought beforehand (I have seen tickets with a red warning on the back along the lines that if they passenger had come across an RPI first not a guard it would have cost more than just the ticket). But it seems they did none of this. (And where I live, they certainly haven't*).

 

While penalising people in those circumstances is legal (ignorance of the law is no defence), I think it is wholly wrong and I have to wonder at the motives of a company who would choose to act in such a way. 

 

And what on earth has the cost of a ticket machine got to do with anything?

 

* As I said previously, the posters they put up at my station were not only unclear but in fact downright misleading.

[Coryton]

37 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Nor do you know why the Guard wasn't doing tickets at that point... It's easy to criticise when you don't know the background or have never done the job....

 

I can think of many reasons why he would be in the back cab and still doing his "duties".... Probably filling out an Assault form from the previous "customer" he had requested buy a ticket... 

 

Quite.

 

As I understand it, the guard is primarily responsible for safety and commercial duties come after that. 

 

It would seem very rude to me to go banging on the cab door to try to get a ticket. But maybe by not doing so I'm risking getting into trouble if I don't have a ticket and I don't harass the guard?

 

I don't recall seeing anything in the conditions of carriage about any difference between approaching a guard for a ticket rather than waiting until they come round, which is what I've always done when getting on at a station without ticket facilities. They must have seen me get on, they know I might need a ticket - if they don't come round they presumably have their reasons.

[Hobby]

OK, then look at it another way... If you got on a bus you'd expect to pay, if you get a taxi you expect to pay, if you go into a shop to get something you expect to pay... So why do so many people think it is OK not to pay when travelling on a train... As i said earlier they gentleman's kids would be the exception on certain runs I work if they actually went to the booking office when they get off and buy a ticket... For many people they see it as a game and they win if they don't have to pay.... And in areas without barriers it's a growing number...

 

2 minutes ago, Coryton said:

It would seem very rude to me to go banging on the cab door to try to get a ticket. But maybe by not doing so I'm risking getting into trouble if I don't have a ticket and I don't harass the guard?

 

I don't recall seeing anything in the conditions of carriage about any difference between approaching a guard for a ticket rather than waiting until they come round, which is what I've always done when getting on at a station without ticket facilities. They must have seen me get on, they know I might need a ticket - if they don't come round they presumably have their reasons.

 

In answer to both sentences the conditions say that you should attempt to buy a ticket asap, preferably before travelling, but if not possible then from the Guard or Ticket Inspector on the train, so going up and knocking is perfectly acceptable, though as I mentioned above it's very rare we see anyone do that, they prefer to sit there and ignore us and then try to get out of the station without paying... That seems to be acceptable behaviour these days by everyone from the scroats to the business suited brigade...

 

It's all a game to them, sadly...

[WIMorrison]

On 09/02/2019 at 23:26, WIMorrison said:

 

Personally I would report him to the TOC management - I already pay sufficient for my rail fares without subsidising fare dodgers and if the conductor isn't checking or collecting fares then he is condoning fare evasion and should be admonished for dereliction of his duties.

 

3 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

 

You don’t need to have been a ‘guard’ to know the law or what is morally correct.

 

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

 

Nor do you know why the Guard wasn't doing tickets at that point... It's easy to criticise when yiu don't know the background or have never done the job....

 

I can think of many reasons why he would be in the back cab and still doing his "duties".... Probably filling out an Assault form from the previous "customer" he had requested buy a ticket... 

 

Where do I say that the ‘guard’ shouldn’t be in his cab doing whatever paperwork that is required?

 

The guard may have multiple duties but amongst them is ensuring that people travelling have a valid voucher, ticket or pass to be making the journey on the train.

 

For the record, the guard on my journey this morning read the Metro cover to cover, then did a crossword whilst sat in his ‘cab’ for the 90 minutes of the journey. The only time he stood up was to look out the window at stations. Regrettably this is the norm.

[Coryton]

On 08/02/2019 at 18:44, adb968008 said:

My own take on this,was the GBRF railtour in September..

 

i travelled from from my home station in Surrey on an ordinary return to didcot at 4pm... Walk up fare. I validated that ticket, on Southern and the Trainline that routing via London terminals, hence Paddington was valid for the trains I sought.

 

at Paddington the signs indicated that my type of offpeak fare was not valid for the train I wanted to take.

 

i immediately went to the desk, this guy says no.

i went to another, he said no.

annoyed I went to the ticket office, he put In my route / fares on to his terminal, and sure enough it and the ticket came up valid, even though the outside displays said no, the speaker says no, and the platform staff said no.

 

he promptly rubber stamped my ticket valid.

in the end, no one checked my ticket, I didn’t exit the platform at Didcot (as I was there to see 87002).

 

now.. computer says yes.. literally everyone else, except the ticket office said no... how would that stand up on board ?

 

 Incidentally, I put the same route in tonight... The fare / route and trains are valid... even if the signs at Paddington and all it’s staff say no.

 

 

I was once told by a guard who was going down a train incorrectly excessing people* that it was irrelevant what (their own company's) travel planner said about ticket validity. Now legally I suspect that it is the passenger's responsibility to have the correct ticket regardless, but really.....

 

* GNER had started enforcing an obscure rule on off-peak ticket validity, and to their credit had publicised the fact, albeit on a poster in a rather unhelpful place. But the guard seemed to have got completely the wrong end of the stick and was merrily excessing people with entirely valid tickets, ignoring protests that the passenger had been using that ticket for years by saying that the company hadn't been applying the rule before. 

[Reorte]

8 hours ago, royaloak said:

I thought the rules were you had to buy a ticket at the first opportunity, which in this example would be the ticket machine.

If you cannot use the machine (it being card only and you want to use cash or it being out of order) then you must get a permit to travel (if available) and then as per above, or am I missing something and 'I always used to buy on board or at my destination' doesnt change the fact that TOCs are now starting to enforce the rules.

 

Or am I missing something?

I very much doubt many people at all have a clue such a think as a permit to travel exists (I'd never heard of it before this thread). They'll see a machine with no means of taking cash and thus no reasonable means of payment suitable for them and expect to be able to pay by some other means.

 

There's a danger of going down the path of "we've provided some means, that it's a PITA or you didn't read the smallprint isn't our problem." Reminds me a just a little of the railway classic of only running one train a day at 3 am from a station then saying it's there's simply no demand for that station. The railway's providing a service.