How were OldOak Commom's allocation of Standard 80000 tanks used?

[Mallard60022]

59 minutes ago, pH said:

 

That does surprise me. 

 

A couple of points, and I'm not trying to be awkward or clever, I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying. You say "He remembers the 80000's at 83A" - I presume you mean 81A (Old Oak Common). Also, you write that he says " I (i.e. Noel) was there in 1958". The original post referred to Summer 1962 - was he still there in 1962? 

 

The real surprise is that Noel says Standard 4 tanks were used on ECS into and out of Paddington. I did wonder if, when talking about cross-London freights to and from south of the river, he was remembering Southern Region engines being used. The Southern Region had some of these engines shedded at Stewarts Lane, Bricklayers Arms, Feltham and Nine Elms at various times. But even if they were used on transfer freights to the WR, I don't think they would have been borrowed for ECS to and from Paddington.

 

What we need are pictures! 

We could try the Trains Illustrated Motive Power Miscellany sections for 1962 and maybe 1963, however I only have two full sets for '60 and '61 and then some for 62/3/4. I can not comment further about the use of these loco's in the London area after 1963 and my visit briefly in August 1964 to Euston and Clapham Jn as I never went back up there (from Devon) until steam had  long gone. Yes I know that I missed 3 more years of steam at Waterloo but women had appeared on the scene and I had almost zero income (still at school)!!!!! 

May I think Dunsignalling (John) for the fascinating information. I think a small book is in the making; Honiton Box, the Golden Years? Also Taulpaul for his tolerance of OT chat.....however, any chat about 80xxx Tanks anywhere is great IMO.

Sincerely,

Phil

[Mallard60022]

9 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

We're getting a long way off topic from the OP but a couple of points arising:

 

Hymeks were regular, if not the universal, traction on the SJ milk trains from September 1963, I think trial trips began a month or two earlier. 

 

The spring-water supply available to the Express Dairy was massive, I was told that something in the region of 300,000 gallons a day was possible, though that probably exceeded normal demand. The pipeline carried on serving a couple of farms and a few cottages long after the creamery closed - I granted line occupations from Honiton for disconnection/capping when the last went over to a mains supply - circa 2002 I think.

 

The landslips in the cutting at the London end of the tunnel were an occasional but potentially dangerous issue. In the worst incident I had anything to do with, a down ECS (Class 159 unit 159019) "surfed" on deep mud and came to rest with the front two cars off the road and all three just inside the tunnel. This happened around 0600 on 8th December 2000. The Eastleigh re-railing gang arrived around 1000 and we had the very mucky unit in the engineers' siding just as the late man arrived to relieve me.

 

John    

 

Thanks mate. Well done with the Incident...….classic work for a Bobby. Eastleigh crew were sharp there then. Got a great book about that bunch; Off the Lines is it?

Thanks matey.

[Right Away]

Straying off topic; "Teddy Bear" was often bestowed by Southern men on the Ivatt Class 2 2-6-2 tanks, also "Mickey Mouse".

 

[Steamport Southport]

I'm assuming it was just a temporary storage until they were moved.

 

Apparently they loved them in North Wales/Cambrian. Unfortunately they probably arrived too late in the day. Most of the lines were already being closed or dieselised.

 

But the good news was many of the Cambrian ones ended up at Barry.

 

 

Jason

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, Right Away said:

Straying off topic; "Teddy Bear" was often bestowed by Southern men on the Ivatt Class 2 2-6-2 tanks, also "Mickey Mouse".

 

Yup, Mickey Mouse for the 2.6.2s but Teddy Bears for the back to front Pacifics at 72A

[Tallpaul69]

12 hours ago, pH said:

 

That does surprise me. 

 

A couple of points, and I'm not trying to be awkward or clever, I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying. You say "He remembers the 80000's at 83A" - I presume you mean 81A (Old Oak Common). Also, you write that he says " I (i.e. Noel) was there in 1958". The original post referred to Summer 1962 - was he still there in 1962? 

 

The real surprise is that Noel says Standard 4 tanks were used on ECS into and out of Paddington. I did wonder if, when talking about cross-London freights to and from south of the river, he was remembering Southern Region engines being used. The Southern Region had some of these engines shedded at Stewarts Lane, Bricklayers Arms, Feltham and Nine Elms at various times. But even if they were used on transfer freights to the WR, I don't think they would have been borrowed for ECS to and from Paddington.

 

What we need are pictures! 

Yes,

I was confused by the statement that the 80000s were based at Acton and the 1958 date.

I think that Noel meant that they took trains forward from Acton, and the return trips back to Acton, and stood there waiting their next duty. I assume they worked LE to a shed somewhere at some stage? There was water at Acton, but I am not aware of any loco coal stocks, so any tanks would need to go elsewhere for coal(and any attention!).

However, Acton Yard was a freight yard, all the coaches were at OOC. So the use on ECS is still a query!

 

Best regards

Paul 

[adb968008]

On 15/06/2019 at 16:41, Pannier Tank said:

 

The following is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BR_Standard_Class_4_2-6-4T

 

No. 80103 was withdrawn in 1962 after being reported for rough riding. It was towed between two other locomotives to Stratford Works, where it was discovered that the mainframe was broken in half. Considered beyond economic repair, 80103 was withdrawn and scrapped. It was the first of the 'Standard' locomotives to be withdrawn, and the only one scrapped at Stratford.

Ive read this story a few times to question the english language.

 

Quote

where it was discovered that the mainframe was broken in half

 

If it was rough riding, is a routine enough incident... indeed even in preservation theres a few rough riding locos,... 30506 was scrapped as it was rough riding.

So that doesnt warrant...

 

Quote

It was towed between two other locomotives to Stratford Works

 

Unless the real story was...

 

it was discovered that the mainframe was broken in half, so It was towed between two other locomotives to Stratford Works. Where it was Considered beyond economic repair, 80103 was withdrawn and scrapped.

 

I think even a poor shed fitter would be able to see a mainframe split into two parts, hence make a judgement it needed transfer between two other locos to control its lateral movements, presumably at slow speed to Stratford.

 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2019 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

On 16/06/2019 at 06:41, pH said:

 

That does surprise me. 

 

A couple of points, and I'm not trying to be awkward or clever, I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying. You say "He remembers the 80000's at 83A" - I presume you mean 81A (Old Oak Common). Also, you write that he says " I (i.e. Noel) was there in 1958". The original post referred to Summer 1962 - was he still there in 1962? 

 

The real surprise is that Noel says Standard 4 tanks were used on ECS into and out of Paddington. I did wonder if, when talking about cross-London freights to and from south of the river, he was remembering Southern Region engines being used. The Southern Region had some of these engines shedded at Stewarts Lane, Bricklayers Arms, Feltham and Nine Elms at various times. But even if they were used on transfer freights to the WR, I don't think they would have been borrowed for ECS to and from Paddington.

 

What we need are pictures! 

By the time the big standard tanks got to the Southern the cross-London freights from the SR to Acton had been dieselised.  The only ones which were still steam worked were the WR trips to South Lambeth and Chelsea Basin as far as I know.  And a number of Old Oak men who were firing when the 80XXX were there (on parper/waiting movement elsewhere?) never said a word about them which would be very unusual as they tended to talk about the 'odd men out'.

 

PS The Acton yard pilots were manned by Old Oak men, not Southall and the cross London WR trips were mainly worked by Old Oak men although most cross London trips to/from Acton used other Region's engines.  I suspect some confusion in recollection to be honest.

Edited June 17, 2019 by The Stationmaster

[The Johnster]

I'd have to agree with Mike's comment, especially as we are talking about a WR depot where any loco that had not been built at Swindon attracted comment, mostly adverse.  Locomen never overtly praised any loco they had to work on, and the best you could get were 'not bad', or 'strong', which suggested that the engine could pull the train but nothing else about it was any good.  What else does it need to do, you not unreasonably ask, but ride, steaming, ease of firing, draughts, stiff or loose controls, view ahead, the quality of the coal and a load of other annoyances conspire to ruin a driver or a fireman's day, and they are more than capable of ruining each others' days as well!  

 

Having a loco you weren't familiar with was a sure way to make a job you'd done a thousand times before unpredictable and potentially problematic.  Where is the best place to take water?  Will I be able to see the shunter through the window or will the bunker get in the way, and if it does will he realise what's happening?  Why are the cab steps different and I've nearly fallen off the loco because I forgot and the handrail isn't exactly where I need it to be?  What's the best way to fire it?  And so on, and on, and on.  Locomen, well railwaymen in general but locomen in particular, are small c conservative and like everything to be the same as it always was because they know they can manage that, and resist improvements.  A standard loco of any sort at Old Oak would be commented on. they were vociferous about the Brits and dumped Iron Duke on the Southern almost as soon as they saw it!

[roythebus]

It could be that Noel's memory is fading. I may well see him at one of the reunions later this year.

 

I remember the pannier tanks at Latchmere when we used to go school swimming at Latchmere Baths, 1963-ish. Going to school in Battersea gave a reasonably good vantage point for the WLL.

 

Imay still have one of my spotters books form that era, so will have a look at what I saw then.

 

[justin]

RCTS History of the BR Standards Volume 3 states:

 

'Those sent to Old Oak Common were immediately laid aside in store, although limited use was made of 80070/98, 80131 on Paddington ECS duties before all six were transferred to Shrewsbury and Croes Newydd by November 1962'  (page 57)

 

 

Edited June 19, 2019 by justin
Grammar

[roythebus]

Noel's memory isn't that bad after all!

 

It's possible with Noel saying they were based at Acton they were aid up there instead of at OOC. Maybe OOC was short of space as the diesels were being introduced about that time.

[pH]

Ok - I think I have found photographic evidence of ex-Tilbury Standard 4 tanks at Old Oak Common in 1962. Can people with more knowledge of Old Oak Common please confirm?

 

80105 - third picture from top on this page (it's actually the first one as well, but without a caption):

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/80105-2/

Roof of building on left looks like one which appears in other OOC pictures. And 80105 is nose-to-nose with what looks like another 80000, and that looks like a third to the left of 80105, on another track. 80105's smokebox numberplate has been removed.

 

80135 - fourth picture on this page:

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/80135-2/

Same roof on building behind, plus those look like ex-GWR tenders. Smokebox plate removed again, but 33B shedplate still there.

 

If these are at OOC, then all we need now is a picture of one on ECS to or from Paddington.

[Dunsignalling]

On ‎16‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 10:52, Right Away said:

Straying off topic; "Teddy Bear" was often bestowed by Southern men on the Ivatt Class 2 2-6-2 tanks, also "Mickey Mouse".

 

 

On ‎16‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 13:25, Mallard60022 said:

Yup, Mickey Mouse for the 2.6.2s but Teddy Bears for the back to front Pacifics at 72A

A colleague who had been a passed fireman at Weymouth always referred to the Ivatt 2MTs as "Midland Tanks".

 

John

[bike2steam]

4 hours ago, pH said:

If these are at OOC, then all we need now is a picture of one on ECS to or from Paddington.

 Well relying on an ageing memory, two pics look like outside the 'factory' at OOC - the first time I've seen any pics of the class there, and must've been there a short while, in between my visits which at the time was about once a month.

[Mallard60022]

25 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

A colleague who had been a passed fireman at Weymouth always referred to the Ivatt 2MTs as "Midland Tanks".

 

John

Regional nick names seem common John and then there were/are the Spotters' names for certain loco's. I never heard a railwayman call a Bulleid a Spam for example but then I never worked in any Sheds.

P 

[The Stationmaster]

On 21/06/2019 at 07:49, bike2steam said:

 Well relying on an ageing memory, two pics look like outside the 'factory' at OOC - the first time I've seen any pics of the class there, and must've been there a short while, in between my visits which at the time was about once a month.

Definitely the factory -  80135 is standing outside it  (with an ER shedplate) so perhaps very shortly after arrival.    And the factory is visible in the background of the view of 80105 (which is standing on the ash siding alongside the ashpit on the north side of the coal stage where I believe various things tended to get dumped and it looks like another 2-6-4T is almost buffer-to-buffer ahead of it).  

 

The interesting thing about the view of 80105 is that the area is very clean as is what can be seen of the pit which makes me wonder if that side of the coal stage/ashpit was no longer in use? 

 

I wasn't visiting Paddington as frequently as 'bike2steam' at that time (and only visited Old Oak once) but I definitely never saw the Standards on Paddington pilot turns - there were still plenty of panniers available then.

[Norton961]

With the mass transfer of the 80xx to the western, this was also the case of the 76xxx BR Standard Class 2-6-0s transferred from Neasden to the Western region.  I saw a bunch of the ex Eastern 76xxx at Bescot all looking In poor  condition ( broken cab windows) and out of steam and a few weeks later they appeared at Oxley and Machynleth, although some of them only lasted a few months presumably due to poor condition.

 

David

[bike2steam]

On 22/06/2019 at 20:09, Norton961 said:

With the mass transfer of the 80xx to the western, this was also the case of the 76xxx BR Standard Class 2-6-0s transferred from Neasden to the Western region.  I saw a bunch of the ex Eastern 76xxx at Bescot all looking In poor  condition ( broken cab windows) and out of steam and a few weeks later they appeared at Oxley and Machynleth, although some of them only lasted a few months presumably due to poor condition.

 

David

Interesting, as a prelude to the run down of the GC line, Neasden shed closed in 1962, all it's 'Pocket Rockets' moved to Cricklewood along with it's dwindling duties. within a matter of a year Cricklewood ran out of work for them so were moved on, about half to Willesden, the other half to Saltley, it was the Saltley batch, also without available work, were hived off to Bescot in two batches, two in about October 1964, the other 4 in early 1965.

[roythebus]

there used to be a shed by the canal at OOC that was served by what could be a monrail from the main loco shed. I think it had some sort of heating plant in there, but was also used to store name and number plates that had been removed from locos. Pity we didn't realise in those days what they'd have been worth today and that we never had bigger duffle bags!

[Phil Bullock]

On 22/06/2019 at 09:53, The Stationmaster said:

Definitely the factory -  80135 is standing outside it  (with an ER shedplate) so perhaps very shortly after arrival.    And the factory is visible in the background of the view of 80105 (which is standing on the ash siding alongside the ashpit on the north side of the coal stage where I believe various things tended to get dumped and it looks like another 2-6-4T is almost buffer-to-buffer ahead of it).  

 

The interesting thing about the view of 80105 is that the area is very clean as is what can be seen of the pit which makes me wonder if that side of the coal stage/ashpit was no longer in use? 

 

I wasn't visiting Paddington as frequently as 'bike2steam' at that time (and only visited Old Oak once) but I definitely never saw the Standards on Paddington pilot turns - there were still plenty of panniers available then.

 

And another one behind her Mike?

 

None of the locos in these photos look like they are currently in traffic - flanges are dull and no trace of oil on the motion...

 

Phil

 

 

[dibber25]

Two 4MTs were cut up at Thorney Mill, just outside West Drayton on the branch to Staines. No idea if they had been WR-based or not. This picture was given to me by T. Wright. (CJL)

[pH]

6 hours ago, dibber25 said:

Two 4MTs were cut up at Thorney Mill, just outside West Drayton on the branch to Staines. No idea if they had been WR-based or not. 

 

BR Database site says they were 80031 and 80148, both always allocated to Southern Region sheds:

 

http://www.brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=scrapyards&subpage=locos&id=SSC03

[Mallard60022]

On ‎16‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 13:25, Mallard60022 said:

Yup, Mickey Mouse for the 2.6.2s but Teddy Bears for the back to front Pacifics at 72A

I have also just been checking some books I have and the 72A lads also called the 80xxx 800s, but that was confusing when the Warships turned up hence the Teddy Bear name became more popular. No mention, I have yet found, of the names (several rude ones possibly?) allocated to the Warships. However unreliable they seemed to be the younger Drivers/Passed Firemen at Exeter rather liked the Warships as they were generally warm and comfortable. Loads of excuses to read stuff!

I also found that the Teds were often used on the Exeter Honiton 'rush hour' service and I have a picture of a Ted near Dunsignalling's old Box, and the picture I mentioned some time back taken from an 80xxx Cab in the Up Loop/ Dairy Sidings area at Seaton Junction, but there is a Standard 4 75XXX 4.6.0. on an Up in the background, not a D 63XX lurking; that must heave been another pic or DVD shot.

[Mallard60022]

11 hours ago, dibber25 said:

Two 4MTs were cut up at Thorney Mill, just outside West Drayton on the branch to Staines. No idea if they had been WR-based or not. This picture was given to me by T. Wright. (CJL)

What a shambolic waste of a decent locomotive design and also money. I hate seeing these scrap line pics (no offence meant Dibber) and I still seethe at the utter waste of resource that was the early demise of the best Standards, but we have been over that argument many, many times elsewhere.

Philth