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Hattons / Bachmann New Stock / cancelled pre-orders (07 Aug)

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30 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Because this whole thread is about a model shop and its relationship with one particular manufacturer!

 

Comments about individuals and their actions are thus irrelevant with respect to commissioning models themselves

 

Bachmann cannot (nor should they be allowed to) stop anyone else from bringing out a model of something Bachmann already produce. However Bachmann are perfectly within their rights to say 'right we will stop supplying you with our products'

 

Technically there is nothing to stop Hornby putting an identical clause in their trader T&Cs - and thus refusing to supply rails on the basis that rails are producing a Terrier in direct competition. The fact that Hornby haven't gone down Bachmanns route with their trade T&Cs indicates that not all manufactures see direct competition as something to be discouraged - but thats not to say protecting your product via protective clauses isn't the right way to go.

 

 

 

 

 

This is nothing to do with the model type being produced. It’s about being a competing manufacturer.

 

Rails are currently a commissioner, if they were to distribute, they would become a competing trade supplier.

 

if Rails were to start selling their Terriers to the trade, they would also be in breach of Bachman’s terms and could lose supply.

Edited by Trains4U
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3 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

 

This is nothing to do with the model type being produced. It’s about being a competing manufacturer.

 

Rails are currently a commissioner, if they were to distribute, they would become a competing trade supplier.

 

if Rails were to start selling their Terriers to the trade, they would also be in breach of Bachman’s terms and could lose supply.

 

So, to put things simply, if Hattons had gone and commissioned a 66 but not set themselves up as a wholesaler (thus guaranteeing it would only be sold by them) then Bachmann would not have pulled the plug?

 

If it really were that simple then, I to be honest find it hard to believe that a suitable legal undertaking could have been created to satisfy Bachmanns concerns (i.e. Hattons agree not to supply their 66 to any other retailer and subject suitable redress if they went back on that)

 

Or is it the 66 is a mighty useful fig leaf to hide other concerns Bachmann have about Hattons move into Wholesale trading.

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Your first paragraph is correct 

hattons would not have breached the terms.

 

The rest is incorrect as it is about being a wholesaler of own brand rolling stock, not the 66 on its own.

 

note  Gaugemaster have lots of commissions that they resell to the trade, but they won’t be branded as Gaugemaster, so they get around being classed as a manufacturer. (They also, I believe, operate their wholesale and retail arms as separate businesses)

Edited by Trains4U
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53 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

We will see.....

 

Yes Hattons will get lots of sales from the 66 models, but at the end of the day its still only one loco type. True there is apparently lots of demand for a high spec 66 and it can be done in lots of liveries (subject to approval being obtained by the owners of the real loco) but how sustainable is said demand?

 

Potentally, as time goes on the inability to stock Bachmann wagons, coaches or other motive power may come back to haunt Hattons.

 

If you were a steam era modeller then you have no interest in the 66 then your money will have to go elsewhere and the loss of these sales is not trivial - even with a business as large as Hattons.

 

As with all things it depends on whether the accountants have got their sums right - and we are not going to know that for a good few years yet.

 

At current prices and comparison of specification, I would suspect that future sales of higher spec (ie. not Hornby Railroad)  66s would mostly go to the Hattons model thus sustaining it for the future and undermining sales of the Barwell product.

 

 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

note  Gaugemaster have lots of commissions that they resell to the trade, but they won’t be branded as Gaugemaster, so they get around being classed as a manufacturer. (They also, I believe, operate their wholesale and retail arms as separate businesses)

 

Which rather begs the question that if Guagemaster have found a way round the problem (admittedly by resorting to quite a complex business model - though it should be said far from unusual in retailing in general) why didn't Hattons do the same? I

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Interesting to read that this has all arisen because Hattons have become a wholesaler, I wasn't aware of that.

 

Does that mean that potentially if the business was divided into separate retail and wholesale/commissioning arms, then in theory Bachmann could start supplying the retail arm again?

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1 minute ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Which rather begs the question that if Guagemaster have found a way round the problem (admittedly by resorting to quite a complex business model - though it should be said far from unusual in retailing in general) why didn't Hattons do the same? I

 

Snap.

 

There are plenty of examples of businesses operating under one ownership as two legal entities.  Would be an interesting moot point for m'learned friends in wigs to debate.

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44 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

 

The rest is incorrect as it is about being a wholesaler of own brand rolling stock, not the 66 on its own.

 

 

I guess it therefore follows that the 66 is a red herring in all this - IIRC Hattons announced the setting up of their wholesale arm before the 66 was launched and in theory even if there was no 66 then Hattons would still be without Bachmann products now.

 

Was the decision to go ahead with the 66 done in the knowledge that the wholesale side of things may well cause the loss of Bachmann products and something would be needed to compensate*?

 

* Note I do not seriously expect an answer to this

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8 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I guess it therefore follows that the 66 is a red herring in all this - IIRC Hattons announced the setting up of their wholesale arm before the 66 was launched and in theory even if there was no 66 then Hattons would still be without Bachmann products now.

 

Was the decision to go ahead with the 66 done in the knowledge that the wholesale side of things may well cause the loss of Bachmann products and something would be needed to compensate*?

 

* Note I do not seriously expect an answer to this

It is the other way around. The Class 66 was announced last summer and the wholesale side started at the end of the year after Bachmann ceased deliveries.

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1 hour ago, Trains4U said:

Your first paragraph is correct 

hattons would not have breached the terms.

 

The rest is incorrect as it is about being a wholesaler of own brand rolling stock, not the 66 on its own.

 

note  Gaugemaster have lots of commissions that they resell to the trade, but they won’t be branded as Gaugemaster, so they get around being classed as a manufacturer. (They also, I believe, operate their wholesale and retail arms as separate businesses)

Trains4U - From people in the know at Bachmann, I was told the issue was not around the wholesale. The T&C state they do not want a retailer to compete with Bachmann. The issue arose when the 66 was announced which was in direct competition with Bachmann whether it was supplied to the trade or not. It took Bachmann some time to sort out what they were going to do and then discuss with Hattons. Discussions have reached their conclusion. End of story the world moves on. Other retailers should pick up increased business as a result.

Edited by marksouthdown
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1 hour ago, Trains4U said:

note  Gaugemaster have lots of commissions that they resell to the trade,

 

It's a very simple model; Gaugemaster ask the manufacturer to make a special variant to, say, a limited quantity and the manufacturer responds!

Edited by JohnDMJ
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On 05/07/2019 at 16:30, Steamport Southport said:

 

Missing much? A few million pounds worth of sales I would reckon.

 

Don't forget Hattons have a turnover of between £10 to £25 million a year.

 

https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Overview/Working-at-Hattons-Model-Railways-EI_IE1537076.11,33.htm

 

 

 

Jason

 

Bachmann Europe PLC have a turnover if around £15 million.

https://uk.globaldatabase.com/company/Bachmann-europe-plc

 

Hattons are smaller

https://uk.globaldatabase.com/company/hattons-model-railways-limited

 

Both in profit.

 

 

Edited by maico

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Seems to be a lot of speculation going on. I'd prefer to see proper press releases from Hattons and Bachmann as to their view of their relationship.

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I had my email this morning cancelling my pre-orders.  Six items in total are affected.  There was no explanation simply a statement that the pre-orders had been cancelled because they could no longer be fulfilled.  They didn't even address me by name - any half-decent auto-mailer should have been able to manage that since my order details were correctly quoted.

 

My reply, equally terse and anonymous, informs Hattons that I shall never return to their business for any reason whatsoever as other retailers are available.  I have re-ordered the items with one of those others at almost the same prices.

 

A simple explanation might have helped even though the details will be bogged down in commercial confidentiality.

 

I had become disillusioned with Hattons when they moved out of Smithdown Road and became a warehouse operation but have now abandoned all hope of them offering anything resembling customer service.   

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A shame. Living locally I have the luxury of it being my nearest model shop only 5 minutes drive. Now having to look further a field or mail order. No more free postage. Parking or coffee and biscuits. Let’s hope it’s sorted. 

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10 minutes ago, loco said:

A shame. Living locally I have the luxury of it being my nearest model shop only 5 minutes drive. Now having to look further a field or mail order. No more free postage. Parking or coffee and biscuits. Let’s hope it’s sorted. 

 I think it is "Sorted",  your wish for free coffee and biscuits and parking can still be had by purchasing other manufacturers models

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18 minutes ago, loco said:

A shame. Living locally I have the luxury of it being my nearest model shop only 5 minutes drive. Now having to look further a field or mail order. No more free postage. Parking or coffee and biscuits. Let’s hope it’s sorted. 

There is another model railway retailer in Widnes so all is not lost for you.

 

They might even do a cuppa if your friendly

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24 minutes ago, loco said:

A shame. Living locally I have the luxury of it being my nearest model shop only 5 minutes drive. Now having to look further a field or mail order. No more free postage. Parking or coffee and biscuits. Let’s hope it’s sorted. 

 

I think that Hatton's action of cancelling the orders brings the relationship with Bachmann to a final conclusion, nothing more can be done to "sort it". Until the emails were sent out customer orders were in abeyance, with a hope from Hatton's that a solution could be found that was in their favour.

 

Ultimately, there are probably only two people who know the full story, with all the negotiation that's gone in the last 12 or so months - the director of Hattons and the director of Bachmann Europe. No doubt they have taken advice to ensure that any decision, and the reason for that decision, are legally watertight.

 

Ultimately, Bachmann will probably still sell the same number of locos, though they may not sell them as quickly with Hattons not placing an initial order in bulk. Some other retailers, may initially buy a smaller amount, then wait until that supply has sold before re-stocking. It depends how many of us decide to buy a brand new model of a loco in a particular livery / running number. 

 

I respect both companies not airing their washing in public; yes it will upset customers of Hattons, who are free to look elsewhere for product supplied via Bachmann, but life goes on.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, loco said:

A shame. Living locally I have the luxury of it being my nearest model shop only 5 minutes drive. Now having to look further a field or mail order. No more free postage. Parking or coffee and biscuits. Let’s hope it’s sorted. 

 

As Woodenhead has pointed out, there is another shop in Widnes. Free parking... coffee... biscuits occasionally... 

Sounds like the ‘other shop’.

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Is it just Bachman who would only sell to shops with a physical presence?

 

if they have no direct relationship now with Bachman Hatton could choose to go online only, the place isn't really suited to personal visitors being away from the high street in an industrial estate.

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If anyone is struggling to get Bachmann products because Hattons are unable to supply their pre-orders you could always contact me.

 

www.a2bmodelrailways.co.uk

 

 

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28 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Is it just Bachman who would only sell to shops with a physical presence?

 

if they have no direct relationship now with Bachman Hatton could choose to go online only, the place isn't really suited to personal visitors being away from the high street in an industrial estate.

 

Peco also stipulate a physical store with regular opening hours. I believe it's also a requirement from Hornby to have a direct account rather than going through a wholesaler.

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3 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

At current prices and comparison of specification, I would suspect that future sales of higher spec (ie. not Hornby Railroad)  66s would mostly go to the Hattons model thus sustaining it for the future and undermining sales of the Barwell product.

 

 

 

 

However, the Bachy 66s have been around for some time and I, for one, have loads of them.  I will not replace them with Hattons models.  If people want a cheap 66 then the Hornby one will suffice.  In a nutshell, there will not be significant demand.

 

I think that Hattons will end up with loads of stock and egg on their face, I’m afraid.

 

I also believe that Hattons, in supplying wholesale, knew what they were doing and were daring Bachmann not to supply.

 

Good for Bachmann in sticking to their terms of trade.

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22 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Peco also stipulate a physical store with regular opening hours. I believe it's also a requirement from Hornby to have a direct account rather than going through a wholesaler.

 

They are not alone!

Edited by JohnDMJ
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2 minutes ago, mevaman1 said:

However, the Bachy 66s have been around for some time and I, for one, have loads of them.  I will not replace them with Hattons models.  If people want a cheap 66 then the Hornby one will suffice.  In a nutshell, there will not be significant demand.

 

I think that Hattons will end up with loads of stock and egg on their face, I’m afraid.

 

 

 

I never said that folks would replace their Bachmann sheds - although some will (just because they can). I won't and will probably run them alongside my newer additions (in the same way that I mix Vitrains 37s with at least 3 versions of Bachmann 37s. Unless there are serious issues with the Hattons 66 and I'm pretty certain that there aren't, then future additions to my shed fleet will most likely be of the Widnes variety and as the need arises to retire my Bachmann locos, they will be either sold on or put into warm store.

 

I suspect that new purchases of 66s would more likely be of the Hattons version (at current price points) and due to the inevitable longevity of the prototype, will remain as steady sellers for a good number of years yet.

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