Hattons / Bachmann New Stock / cancelled pre-orders (07 Aug)

[royaloak 3,019]

11 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I think Gareth at Trains4U has indicated the detail that has irked Bachmann - Hatton's intention to wholesale their products, rather than merely selling direct. If Hornby et al do not have this specified in their Ts&Cs they may have no quibble. 

I dont suppose there is anything in the T&Cs meaning they have to supply their products to anyone if they dont want too.

[mevaman1 49]

10 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

Surely a presumption as opposed to fact?  Conversely I have sold all of my Bachmann 66s...  and by stating that I'm not suggesting that the majority will do the same, just that there will be modellers who fall into either camp.

As a previous manager of a major Model Railway shop, I would respectfully suggest that my view is not so presumption.

[Joseph_Pestell 4,747]

14 minutes ago, royaloak said:

I dont suppose there is anything in the T&Cs meaning they have to supply their products to anyone if they dont want too.

 

Bachmann will have taken advice on this, no doubt. In my view, under European Law, they are in the wrong.

[royaloak 3,019]

1 minute ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Bachmann will have taken advice on this, no doubt. In my view, under European Law, they are in the wrong.

What EU law is there which states you have to supply goods to somebody?

 

If there was such a law then surely every time a supplier under-supplies an item (a shop orders 20 but is only supplied 10 for example) they could be sued?

[Joseph_Pestell 4,747]

1 minute ago, royaloak said:

What EU law is there which states you have to supply goods to somebody?

 

If there was such a law then surely every time a supplier under-supplies an item (a shop orders 20 but is only supplied 10 for example) they could be sued?

 

Not quite a parallel case.

 

Choosing not to supply goods to a retailer, without good reason such as non-payment, certainly used to fall foul of EU law as a restraint of trade.

[TomE 4,634]

20 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I think Gareth at Trains4U has indicated the detail that has irked Bachmann - Hatton's intention to wholesale their products, rather than merely selling direct. If Hornby et al do not have this specified in their Ts&Cs they may have no quibble. 

 

It's easy to see why Bachmann may be irked. Hatton's have made a profit from selling Bachmann's products and are now using that profit to go into direct competition with them, thus potentially reducing Bachmann's revenue from it's range. Of course it's a free market and Hattons are entirely within their rights to decide to go down that path, but in a market as small as model railways can such a course of action be considered wise?

 

Tom.  

 

[Steven B 606]

Is there a list of Bachmann & Farish models that Hatton's never received and will now be released to other shops?

 

Am I right in assuming that any remaining Bachmann/Farish stock will be covered by Bachmann's guarantee in the event of a fault?

 

Steven B.

[royaloak 3,019]

8 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Not quite a parallel case.

 

Choosing not to supply goods to a retailer, without good reason such as non-payment, certainly used to fall foul of EU law as a restraint of trade.

Would that retailer now being a direct competitor be grounds for non supply?

 

I suppose we will find out in good time whether Hattons decide to pursue things or not.

 

 

Edited August 8 by royaloak
more info.

[Oldddudders 35,185]

2 minutes ago, Steven B said:

Is there a list of Bachmann & Farish models that Hatton's never received and will now be released to other shops?

 

Am I right in assuming that any remaining Bachmann/Farish stock will be covered by Bachmann's guarantee in the event of a fault?

 

Steven B.

Andy Y made that clear in the last 48 hours. If sold by an appointed Bachmann agent at the time, no sweat. 

[melmoth 678]

4 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Choosing not to supply goods to a retailer, without good reason such as non-payment, certainly used to fall foul of EU law as a restraint of trade.

 

I find this very difficult to believe, although I know next to nothing aboout the detail of EU law. I know, for example, of a publisher who refuses to supply both Amazon and the major UK book wholesaler for reasons entirely private to themselves. I don't see how a producer can be forced to supply any retailer if they choose not to.

[mevaman1 49]

Bachmann’s Ts and Cs are pretty clear.  What is the point of entering into a contract and then breaching it?  Hattons have breached a contract term and so Bachmann are well within their rights to cease supply.

 

Those talking about EU and competition law don’t really understand that this is a simple case of a breach of a contract term.  There has to be a consequence to such a breach otherwise what is the point of a contract?

[Kris 2,008]

3 minutes ago, Steven B said:

Is there a list of Bachmann & Farish models that Hatton's never received and will now be released to other shops?

 

Am I right in assuming that any remaining Bachmann/Farish stock will be covered by Bachmann's guarantee in the event of a fault?

 

Steven B.

Bachmann have told Andy York that the guarantee applies to all stock purchased by Hattons direct from Bachmann prior to Hattons stopping being a Bachmann official retailer. From speculation earlier in this thread it appears that Hattons may also have purchased some stock from other retailers (i.e. not direct from Bachmann). In these cases under Bachmann's terms and conditions the guarantee would not exist, however Bachmann have told Andy York that they will do their best for customers caught up in this situation should a claim be required. 

[Joseph_Pestell 4,747]

40 minutes ago, mevaman1 said:

Bachmann’s Ts and Cs are pretty clear.  What is the point of entering into a contract and then breaching it?  Hattons have breached a contract term and so Bachmann are well within their rights to cease supply.

 

Those talking about EU and competition law don’t really understand that this is a simple case of a breach of a contract term.  There has to be a consequence to such a breach otherwise what is the point of a contract?

 

Contract terms are only defendable if they are in themselves lawful.

[GWR-fan 431]

Some years ago when petrol delivery strikes were relatively common it was not unusual for petrol retailers to limit supply only to regular customers.  This was in breach of the law in restricting trade by limiting who they sold petrol to.  Compliance meant selling petrol to all who wished to purchase.

[Dunsignalling 4,088]

39 minutes ago, TomE said:

 

It's easy to see why Bachmann may be irked. Hatton's have made a profit from selling Bachmann's products and are now using that profit to go into direct competition with them, thus potentially reducing Bachmann's revenue from it's range. Of course it's a free market and Hattons are entirely within their rights to decide to go down that path, but in a market as small as model railways can such a course of action be considered wise?

 

Tom.  

 

Given how few and far between have been Bachmann's releases of new models (the biggest sellers in anybody's range) in recent times, I doubt Hatton's will miss them all that much for the immediate future. When/if the blue team get their act together (and maintain it) on the delivery front, that might change.

 

Hatton's have, no doubt, calculated that their new activities in manufacture and distribution will increase yield by at least as much as they lose from ceasing to retail Bachmann/Farish products in consequence of them. 

 

It's not a matter of being irked, Hatton's clearly broke terms they had signed up to (maybe they thought they were big enough to get away with it) and Bachmann quite justifiably decided to enforce the contract. Hatton's were presumably unwilling to back down, or had invested too much for it to be affordable to do so.  

 

John

[The Stationmaster 80,020]

51 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Not quite a parallel case.

 

Choosing not to supply goods to a retailer, without good reason such as non-payment, certainly used to fall foul of EU law as a restraint of trade.

Bachmann sell their goods to retailers in accordance with their Ts&Cs - just as Hornby do and no doubt any other manufacturer or wholesaler you care to think of.  IF a customer of Bachmann's (or anybody else's come to that) does not comply with that company's T&Cs then it is really end of game, they will no longer be supplied.  As it happens, albeit with their own Ts&Cs, Hornby advised their customers a while back that if they did not sign up to new Ts&Cs they would cease to supply them.  The whip hand lies with the supplier and not necessarily with their retail trade customer - it really is as simple as that.

 

Bachmann have, as I understand things - not being supplying Hattons with new release items for some time.  The fact that Hattons have now given up and finally admitted they cannot supply upcoming Bachmann new release items to their customers would seem to indicate that whatever their discussions  with Bachmann have been thus far they are now having to accept the position and are  finally resigned to no longer being supplied.  An interesting question might be to see when Bachmann actually last supplied any new release model to Hattons because I know that other retailers have been benefitting from this for some time past.

[Dunsignalling 4,088]

14 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Contract terms are only defendable if they are in themselves lawful.

Which, in this case, both sides clearly consider them to be.

 

Otherwise, matters would not have ended as they have without at least one of them resorting to litigation.

 

John

[Chamby 1,204]

18 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 An interesting question might be to see when Bachmann actually last supplied any new release model to Hattons because I know that other retailers have been benefitting from this for some time past.

 

November 2018, if I recall correctly.  

 

I used to regularly keep an eye on the Hatton’s ‘new releases’ web page, it was the best way to keep tabs on new releases.  Rails are now very pro-active with regular email updates about new arrivals in stock, and Kernow also send out a good weekly update by email every Friday.

[YesTor 461]

2 hours ago, mevaman1 said:

As a previous manager of a major Model Railway shop, I would respectfully suggest that my view is not so presumption.

 

Fair enough, although despite anyone's experience almost all viewpoints in business are speculative... until after the event of course, when it all becomes hindsight...

 

Edited August 8 by YesTor

[Free At Last 676]

56 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

  An interesting question might be to see when Bachmann actually last supplied any new release model to Hattons because I know that other retailers have been benefitting from this for some time past.

 

31 minutes ago, Chamby said:

 

November 2018, if I recall correctly.  

 

Also , Bachmann have only removed Hattons from their list of stockists within the last month.

[mevaman1 49]

37 minutes ago, YesTor said:

 

Hmmm, it's still a speculative viewpoint at best.

I suppose that I am ever so

nicely pointing out that I probably know more about the Model Railway market than you.

[The Stationmaster 80,020]

57 minutes ago, Chamby said:

 

November 2018, if I recall correctly.  

 

I used to regularly keep an eye on the Hatton’s ‘new releases’ web page, it was the best way to keep tabs on new releases.  Rails are now very pro-active with regular email updates about new arrivals in stock, and Kernow also send out a good weekly update by email every Friday.

That date seems to fit with what I have heard from other retailers who saw an increase in Bachmann sales around the end of last year/early this year.

[olivegreen 206]

Reading this because I, too, have had the Hattons e-mail cancelling my Bachmann Bulleid coaches pre-order.

For the modeller - the consumer - the background to the apparent dispute is irrelevant, he simply exercises his right to order from another supplier.

But having seen the prices of current Bachmann coaches (pushing 80 notes each at full RRP), a price when (if) they are released in the order of £240 for a 3-coach set is eye-watering stuff.

Now, if Hattons are clear (for whatever reason) of commitments to Bachmann, how about them commissioning Bulleid 64' coaches? On recent experience, they'll be available long before any Bachmann ones are likely to be.

Just a thought...

Edited August 8 by olivegreen

[melmoth 678]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

To be honest I think Hattons have not handled the cancellation of orders very well...

 

What Hattons needed to say is that they were no longer able to accept pre-orders for new Bachmann items because Bachmann will no longer be supplying them - the plain unvarnished truth and end of story (although not the end of this thread).  If Hattons had any concern for their customers, and future sales to them, they might have added a bit more.  But a stark sort of email such as that received by Gwiwer hardly qualifies in my view as 'good customer service' and it might well give the wrong impression - as it obviously has to others - that for some reason the product is not now going to appear...

 

..To me it says a lot more about Hattons than it does about Bachmann. 

 

Mike, I hesitate to disagree with you, both on the basis of wisdom and knowledge, but I think Hattons have dealt with this reasonably well. It is only within the last couple of days that Hattons have cancelled pre-orders and Bachmann have removed Hattons from their list of retailers. These roughly simultaneous actions would obviously suggest that both parties have arrived at a point of mutual (and terminal) disagreement. However, for either to have acted before this point would have precipitous, assuming that both parties were acting in good faith, and both had hoped for a positive resolution.

[Mallard60022 18,229]

22 minutes ago, olivegreen said:

Reading this because I, too, have had the Hattons e-mail cancelling my Bachmann Bulleid coaches pre-order.

For the modeller - the consumer - the background to the apparent dispute is irrelevant, he simply exercises his right to order from another supplier.

But having seen the prices of current Bachmann coaches (pushing 80 notes each at full RRP), a price when (if) they are released in the order of £240 for a 3-coach set is eye-watering stuff.

Now, if Hattons are clear (for whatever reason) of commitments to Bachmann, how about them commissioning Bulleid 64' coaches? On recent experience, they'll be available long before any Bachmann ones are likely to be.

Just a thought...

Naughty thought (but quite clever really).

P