Orange peel

[Brinkly]

Hi,

 

I haven't painted a coach coach before and before I put the lining on it, is this a mild form of orange peel? I have used Halfords red oxide primer and Ford Burgundy red, again from Halfords. 

 

 

I would rather start again than proceed with the lining and numbering if it is.

 

Any advice will be gracefully received! 

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick

Edited July 13, 2019 by Brinkly
Typo

[polybear]

Looks like it to me - I'd strip it and start again (rubbing it down would most likely damage raised detail).

Get it right from the start, otherwise you'll never be happy with it and wished you had.

[RexAshton]

I'd agree with polybear. The secret is to use several thin coats rather than one heavy coat. Good luck.

[RBAGE]

I always struggle when trying to spray paint a gloss finish. Even though I am aware of the causes of orange peel, it doesn't seem to help me overcome it.

I worked in a paint environment in the car industry for a number of years and and technical training I had seemed to suggest that everything and anything can cause orange peel.

Pressure too high or low.

Viscosity too high or low

Distance to far or too close.

Fast thinner or slow thinner.

High temperature or low.

High or low film thickness.

I'm exaggerating a bit but that's the way it sounded.

 

The problem with achieving a gloss finish is that you're right on the edge. The best finish will be a fully wet application over the whole surface with enough paint, just short of it starting to sag.

Did you paint the coach sides outside? Was it a hot day? Was there any breeze? All of these can contribute towards starting to drying the paint on the surface before you have got the whole surface "wet". 

If the can is too far from the coach sides, the paint will start to dry before it gets to the surface. By start to dry, I mean that the solvent will already have started to evaporate before it hits the surface. That means that the paint will not flow as well as if the paint was applied with the can closer.

 

Anyway, I have 5 coaches to paint with the same materials as you have used. Stand by for a disaster.

[The Johnster]

Light coats built up in layers until you are happy with the finish is the way to go, with each coat allowed to dry before the next is applied.  Prime with a primer or matt varnish first, and use a gentle touch to avoid obscuring detail. 

 

I use acrylic rattlecans from Halfords.  The spraying is done outside on the patio; wait for a fine clear day with good light, with as little dust-raising wind as possible and ideally after rain which cleans a lot of airborne particles out of the atmosphere. 

 

Spray from about a foot away in passes; keep the can moving at an even speed.  And give it a good rattle first.  It’ll flow without this, but not at a predictable consistency. 

Edited July 13, 2019 by The Johnster

[John Tomlinson]

If it's any consolation you can get "orange peel" using an airbrush. Having said that at least there is a bit more control than with a spray can.

 

I'm inclined to the view of RBAGE, basically get any of the variables a bit wrong and the finish is unsatisfactory. Probably explains why I always seem to have drawers full of completed models awaiting painting!

 

John.

[Brinkly]

Thanks for all the advice gents. 

 

I made the decision this morning to strip the model back and start again. Full removal of the paint and primer using Precision Stripper and then a damaged good wash and clean.

 

I then primed again, but this time, put the can of primer in a pan of hot water (upright of course!) and gave it a good shake every couple of minutes. Then gave it a very long shake before use: the primer flew out of the can this time round and has gone on to the model much flatter. 

 

The paint is currently going through the same treatment. I plan to give the sides a gentle coat this afternoon and then let it go off throughly before applying the next coat. 

 

I’ll report back in due course. Once again, thank you for the advice.

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick 

[mozzer models]

could be down to the weather with to high humidity when i was building full time i had to pick the right day at this time of year

 

Edited July 14, 2019 by mozzer models

[Brinkly]

1 minute ago, mozzer models said:

could be down to the weather with to high humidity when i was building full time i had to pick the right day at this time of year

 

 

It was quite humid yesterday. Today it is bright and sunny, which I think has made a difference too.

[timbowilts]

I’ve never heard of warming the can before use, how did you find that out?

Does anyone else do this?

Tim T

Modelling South Wales branches in EM

[Brinkly]

7 minutes ago, timbowilts said:

I’ve never heard of warming the can before use, how did you find that out?

Does anyone else do this?

Tim T

Modelling South Wales branches in EM

 

I know lots of people put rattle cans in the airing cupboard, so I thought I'd try putting the can in a saucepan of hot water. It does seem to have worked really well. The primer and paint has come out really smoothly. 

 

I'll certainly keep on doing it.

 

Regards,

 

Nick.

[Steamport Southport]

15 minutes ago, timbowilts said:

I’ve never heard of warming the can before use, how did you find that out?

Does anyone else do this?

Tim T

Modelling South Wales branches in EM

 

I first seen that recommended in one of the magazines about twenty years ago. Possibly MRJ.

 

Just above room temperature, say 30 degrees. Not hot.

 

 

 

Jason

[PatB]

51 minutes ago, timbowilts said:

I’ve never heard of warming the can before use, how did you find that out?

Does anyone else do this?

Tim T

Modelling South Wales branches in EM

A bloke I knew was painting some bits of motorbike and swore by warming the cans in front of the gas fire. He got a lovely finish, but it seemed to be a fine line between success and blowing the house up.

[Brinkly]

This is the result so far. A rather crude close-up; however, I comparison with yesterday's work, the finish is much more acceptable. 

 

This is the result of three light coats of Ford Burgundy Red over primer. I'm going to give it a forth coat and call it a day. I don't think is I still perfect, but an improvement.

 

 

Regards,

Nick.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Brinkly
Typo.

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 hours ago, timbowilts said:

I’ve never heard of warming the can before use, how did you find that out?

Does anyone else do this?

Tim T

Modelling South Wales branches in EM

I stand mine in warm water for about 5 to 10 minutes especially on cold weather. 

[Brinkly]

Hi everyone,

 

Here is the coach so far. The paintwork is alright, it isn’t perfect, but for a first go I’m reasonably happy. 

 

 

 

The wire needs re-fitting on the ends.

 

The other MK1 BG (Hornby model) will be stripped back in due course and repainted a second time; however, I will paint that using an airbrush. 

 

I don't know if I’ll complete any more stock with rattle cans: it seems fraught with difficultly! 

 

Once again, thanks for the advice everyone. 

 

Regards,

 

Nick

[trustytrev]

Hello,

 Improvement comes with experience.  It is like earning to ride a bike. At first it is impossible but after success  one wonders what all the difficulty was about.

Confidence is improved by experience and it all helps to achieve a satisfactory outcome.

trustytrev.:)

[michl080]

good morning,

 

The propellant gas in the rattle cans is partly dissolved in the paint/solvent mixture. As you spray, the propellant gas evaporates. This cools down the content of the can. As the paint cools down, it increases its viscosity. This causes coarser atomization at the spray nozzle and this causes an inferior result.

 

Simple physics

 

Michael

Edited July 15, 2019 by michl080

[Torper]

The trouble with rattle cans is that you have very little control over them and the amount of paint they deliver.  It is all too easy to flood the subject with paint even with just a fairly quick pass of the can.  So if you're going to be painting a lot of fairly large subjects like coach sides I would strongly recommend getting an airbrush which gives you much more control over the quantity of paint delivered, and is also much kinder to fine detail which can be obscured by an over-long skoosh from a rattle can.  That's not to say you'll be able to pick up an airbrush straight away and achieve fantastic results - it will need a bit of practice but hopefully you'll find it's well worth the effort.  Nor need it break the bank - I have two Sparmax airbrushes, the cheaper of which, the Sparmax Max3 (£52), can be used as either dual or single action and gives excellent results.  (The more expensive brush is the also excellent £90 trigger action Sparmax GP35 which I converted to take a 0.5mm needle after acquiring the Max-3).

 

DT

Edited July 15, 2019 by Torper

[turbos]

I usually sit my rattle can on a radiator , or in a hot pan of water in summer while getting my spray booth set up, final check and setting up of model, and putting on appropriate PPE. Then I shake the can as much as possible and when I think it’s shaken enough I shake it some more, then spray. 

Your coach sides look good, I wish some of my early attempts had been that good.

[Steamport Southport]

Careful of the heat though. They have warnings on them not to exceed a certain temperature.

 

I don't want to hear of anyone putting them in boiling water and them exploding....

 

 

 

Jason

[57xx]

On 14/07/2019 at 13:46, timbowilts said:

I’ve never heard of warming the can before use, how did you find that out?

Does anyone else do this?

Tim T

 

 

Yup, been doing it about 25 years. I found out when spraying a newly built race bike, the guy helping me out with it gave me the tip. I've done it that way it ever since, whether on bike parts or railway models.

 

Unless you're daft enough to leave it in a boiling pan on the cooker for an hour, then there is no fear of them exploding. Putting them in a pan where the water has been boiled and taken off the heat, does not get them hot enough to go bang, but does make them spray much better.

[Campaman]

The other problem we have as modelers spraying is that on bigger items you would usually flat the primer back to give a smooth surface for the top coat, this is not easy or always possible on our models so we can end up with a rougher finish.

[31A]

On 14/07/2019 at 13:46, timbowilts said:

I’ve never heard of warming the can before use, how did you find that out?

Does anyone else do this?

Tim T

Modelling South Wales branches in EM

 

A 'me too' from me; much as Turbos said above - I spray outdoors in good weather, and put the aerosol in warm tap water in the sink while I'm getting all the bits & pieces together.

[TheSignalEngineer]

4 hours ago, Campaman said:

The other problem we have as modelers spraying is that on bigger items you would usually flat the primer back to give a smooth surface for the top coat, this is not easy or always possible on our models so we can end up with a rougher finish.

I've had a  case of orange peel today. Spraying up a couple of etched sides with Halfords burgundy red. Finish came out awful even though I got a nice smooth finish from the same can last week so I analysed what was done different. 

First job was an old Bachmann plastic coach which had a grey primer and came out smooth. The only difference this time was that I used a can of Halfords plastic red primer which I keep for the inside of steel body wagons as a weathering base. A second pair of etched was waiting primer to become blood and custard. A third pair was still in Halfords plastic etch primer awaiting a decision on final livery before undercoating.

The etch primer was perfectly smooth, as was the white where the cream top coat was to go on, but the red had a very rough feel. I tried brush coating a little Railmatch crimson on one of the panels and even that gave a tough surface. 

They've been stripped back to the brass now ready for another start tomorrow weather permitting.