When were the GWR Toads last used?

[Tallpaul69]

Hi All,

When were the last GWR Toads used on freights (not engineers trains) in the Paddington - Reading area? Were they seen on the branches later than on the main line?

 

Many thanks

Paul

[bécasse]

They were banned from long-distance freights from 1957 because they didn't have duckets. Most probably disappeared from general traffic use fairly soon after that although there would have been exceptions. They continued to be used as barrier wagons on tank trains (fitted/piped examples only) and, of course, many found employment for a considerable period as engineers' riding vans (and not just on the WR).

Quote

 

 

[hmrspaul]

Plenty during the 1980s in departmental use. The final two I saw were on 15 April 1989 at Leyton https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbrakevan/e2dbf639f  

and Leytonstone https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbrakevan/e346d8270

 

Paul

[melmoth]

In Kevin McCormack's "The Western Around London" (Ian Allan, isbn 0711030278), there's a photo of a Toad at Chinnor in 1961 on a pick up freight. The van appears to be marked "Princes Risborough RU" and the loco is a 16xx,1638.

 

It wasn't the image I was looking for in response to the OP, which was one of a 61xx on a freight with a Toad somewhere on the main line, possibly at Taplow, in 1963/64.

 

I'll keep looking.

[Steamport Southport]

 We've had this discussion before somewhere on the forum. IIRC.

 

After 1957 they had RU for Restricted Use applied which meant they couldn't travel on to other regions due to a lack of duckets. Other regions guards didn't like them anyway. They could still work on the Western though.

 

Banned from general service in the mid 1960s due to a lack of escape incase of an accident. Many then went to departmental stock.

 

Photo here is 1965 and the Toad still looks like it's in use on normal trains.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/71592768@N08/14437132814

 

 

 

Jason

Edited August 14, 2019 by Steamport Southport
Added link

[Tallpaul69]

Thanks for the info everyone,

 

I am reassured that they would e correct for my model of the period 1960-2!

 

Any further info/pictures would be appreciated.

 

Best regards

Paul

[bécasse]

21 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 We've had this discussion before somewhere on the forum. IIRC.

 

After 1957 they had RU for Restricted Use applied which meant they couldn't travel on to other regions due to a lack of duckets. Other regions guards didn't like them anyway. They could still work on the Western though.

 

Banned from general service in the mid 1960s due to a lack of escape incase of an accident. Many then went to departmental stock.

 

Photo here is 1965 and the Toad still looks like it's in use on normal trains.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/71592768@N08/14437132814

 

 

 

Jason

I am made suspicious by the newly white-leaded (or whatever white sealant they were using in the early 1960s) roof. There really were very few in traffic by that date, mainly on freight-only branch line duties, and I suspect that this is an engineer's riding van attached to a train of empty open wagons which are ready to be filled with spoil come the next weekend.

[The Johnster]

They were taken out of use over a very short period in, I think, 1963, because the NUR had convinced the management that they were unsafe on the basis of only having one door to the cabin, restricting the guard's escape if an accident was imminent or in progress.  I agree that the train in the photo is probably a departmental working, the wagons look like Grampus and there seems to be a van at the other end of the train.  The van is carrying no tail or side lamps and looks to be stabled pending the job at the weekend. 

[The Stationmaster]

Right let's get to some real facts.

 

GWR style freight brakevans were banned from use on freight trains sometime during 1965.  the ban was implemented on safety grounds because there was no suitable means of egress in an emergnecy from the non-verandah end of the van.   This possibly occurred as a result of some sort of collision but despite extensive searches I have b never been able to find any details of such an incident.   A number were immediately put into use as fitted head vehicles in the London Division based at Acton and were definitely still being used in that way in September 1966.  Others of course gradually moved,usually (but not always) with modified bodies and enclised verandahs to various funstions with the Civil Engineer. 

 

The 1965 photo linked by ''Steamport Southport' gives us a hopefully reliable date when such vans were still in traffic use.  Even if the train - which is clearly stabled - had been working to a site it would still have not been permitted to user a GWR style brakevan as the bral kevan after the ban was introduced because ot would have been a normal traffic movement to the site.    However his mention of the term RU most definitely has nothing whatsoever to do with the lack of duckets or anything else on these vans and equally definitely did not mean 'Restricted Use'.   It actually meant 'Restricted User' - that user being identified by the location name painted on the van or the list of train workings so painted on the side of the van and might have originally been introduced in 1950.

[Gordon A]

On 15/08/2019 at 20:02, bécasse said:

I am made suspicious by the newly white-leaded (or whatever white sealant they were using in the early 1960s) roof. There really were very few in traffic by that date, mainly on freight-only branch line duties, and I suspect that this is an engineer's riding van attached to a train of empty open wagons which are ready to be filled with spoil come the next weekend.

 

For this to happen the whole train must be vacuum braked. Looking at the wagons I think not.

 

Gordon A

[Stubby47]

OP's question : When were the GWR Toads last used?  1948 ?

[bécasse]

1 hour ago, Gordon A said:

 

For this to happen the whole train must be vacuum braked. Looking at the wagons I think not.

Some Engineer's Riding Vans were "converted" (by being renumbered) from piped Toads but many, perhaps the majority, were unfitted and remained unfitted in engineering service. Therefore it was immaterial whether the whole train was vacuum-braked, the riding van wasn't.

[Tallpaul69]

2 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

OP's question : When were the GWR Toads last used?  1948 ?

I meant when were GWR type Toads last used , not Toads bearing painted GWR (they were not repainted overnight!), (nor did I mean those owned by the GWR)!!!

 

From most of the replies I think most readers understood what I meant!

 

Cheers

Paul

[Stubby47]

7 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

I meant when were GWR type Toads last used , not Toads bearing painted GWR (they were not repainted overnight!), (nor did I mean those owned by the GWR)!!!

 

From most of the replies I think most readers understood what I meant!

 

Cheers

Paul

 

[Gordon A]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

Some Engineer's Riding Vans were "converted" (by being renumbered) from piped Toads but many, perhaps the majority, were unfitted and remained unfitted in engineering service. Therefore it was immaterial whether the whole train was vacuum-braked, the riding van wasn't.

 

For the Toad in the picture not to be used as a brake van then the whole train needs to be vacuum braked.

If the wagons in the train are not vacuum braked then I would say the Toad is acting as a brake van as it is the only brake van at the end of the train.

 

Gordon A

[The Johnster]

On 16/08/2019 at 00:01, The Johnster said:

They were taken out of use over a very short period in, I think, 1963, because the NUR had convinced the management that they were unsafe on the basis of only having one door to the cabin, restricting the guard's escape if an accident was imminent or in progress.  I agree that the train in the photo is probably a departmental working, the wagons look like Grampus and there seems to be a van at the other end of the train.  The van is carrying no tail or side lamps and looks to be stabled pending the job at the weekend. 

in view of the Stationmaster's response, which I am happy to accept as authoritative, I'm glad I qualified my 1963 with an 'I think'.  Grampus were not vacuum braked, and if the train is stabled pending nearby Per.Way work that weekend one cannot assume that the van is in use as a brake van; the loco may be bringing it when it turns up on Saturday evening before the occupation.  The train is secured in the siding by the brake on the van and brake levers pinned down at the other end.

 

AFAIK no brake vans were fully fitted with vacuum brakes, although any painted Bauxite by BR would be through vacuum piped.  There is no need for an automatic brake on a brake van in which a guard who has signed the road is riding.  

[Miss Prism]

3 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

AFAIK no brake vans were fully fitted with vacuum brakes  

 

AA21 and a few AA23 (in BR days) were.

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

However his mention of the term RU most definitely has nothing whatsoever to do with the lack of duckets or anything else on these vans and equally definitely did not mean 'Restricted Use'.   It actually meant 'Restricted User' - that user being identified by the location name painted on the van or the list of train workings so painted on the side of the van and might have originally been introduced in 1950.

There was at least one BR standard brake with RU branding photographed in the Birmingham area in the early 1960s. 

[Coach bogie]

The ex GWR Toads must have been popular with some. When I moved jobs to Tyneside in the early 1990's I saw these three on a regular basis working out of Bensham PW yard.The yellow one is fitted.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Fat Controller]

25 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

There was at least one BR standard brake with RU branding photographed in the Birmingham area in the early 1960s. 

In one of the David Larkin albums published by Bradford Barton, there is a photo of a BR standard van, with a 'RU' branding; underneath is a list of its diagrammed workings, looking for all the world like a cricket score-board.

[Fat Controller]

2 minutes ago, Coach bogie said:

The ex GWR Toads must have been popular with some. When I moved jobs to Tyneside in the early 1990's I saw these three on a regular basis working out of Bensham PW yard.The yellow one is fitted.

 

Mike Wiltshire

You should have seen what they replaced, Mike; NER ballast brakes.

[Stubby47]

Why, if these were taken out of service due to lack of access, were they still in use years later still without an extra door?

[Mark Saunders]

4 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

Why, if these were taken out of service due to lack of access, were they still in use years later still without an extra door?

 

Because they ere not used as Brake Vans but accommodation for crane crews on site!

 

The LNER ones were used to the end rather than replaced by GWR designed ones at Low Fell. 

 

DW68995 is not fitted but through piped hence the code ZXP.

 

Mark Saunders

[Marshall5]

On 19/09/2019 at 17:22, Miss Prism said:

 

AA21 and a few AA23 (in BR days) were.

 

 

17447  (dia AA21) certainly was.  When it was delivered to Steamport the B.R. guard couldn't be bothered to pull the string so it was propelled over our connection with the wheels locked leaving flats.  The owner wasn't amused.

Ray.

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, Marshall5 said:

17447  (dia AA21) certainly was.  When it was delivered to Steamport the B.R. guard couldn't be bothered to pull the string so it was propelled over our connection with the wheels locked leaving flats.  The owner wasn't amused.

Ray.

 

Yes. I have first hand experience of that when roped into guard duty for the demonstration goods. Being propelled over the points in the Toad at Southport wasn't exactly a comfortable ride.  

 

Fun though. 

 

Can't remember what the rest of the train consisted of. Definitely the Esso tank, possibly the GPV and LMS (MR?) 3 plank. Difficult to believe that was over 30 years ago though.

 

 

 

 

Jason