Heritage railways may be running out of steam

[TEAMYAKIMA]

I heard a headline on the Radio 2 13.00 news...………..

 

HERITAGE RAILWAYS MAY BE RUNNING OUT OF STEAM 

 

Didn't hear any more ………….. any idea what this is about?

Edited August 22, 2019 by TEAMYAKIMA

[Reorte]

Probably the coal thing discussed here earlier.

[Paul.Uni]

or possibly a volunteer shortage https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/21/steam-driver-shortage-britains-heritage-railways-call-goes-new/

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, Paul.Uni said:

or possibly a volunteer shortage https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/21/steam-driver-shortage-britains-heritage-railways-call-goes-new/

Twas a shortage of all sorts of Volunteers/Employees. Sadly I think this reflects the interests of the modern youngster, and that is not just a casual generalisation and the rather poor planning and even attitude of some set ups where it is often so difficult to break through the 'clique barriers' and, sadly, the old boy's club(s). It isn't easy for adults to work at getting into these 'clubs' and so for the less assertive and inexperienced youngsters it is just not very welcoming I am sorry to say. Let's hope some sort of publicity drive might help some of them. 

I shall try to watch/listen to the news this evening, however I suspect that little piece was just a time filler this morning.

P (Ex Volunteer at Bluebell and Watercress and a quite short time at Barrow Hill.

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Mallard60022

[APOLLO]

Lots of issues really. Future availability / source of coal, ageing workforce (paid & volunteer), rising costs, falling visitors / members etc etc. Such matters seem to get worse year on year.

 

I've just been reading this months "Steam Railway" mag - all the above points (and many more) seem to be mentioned monthly. Always lots of appeals also for very big sums - hundreds or thousands £ in some cases. In this months mag the Bluebell Railway and the West Somerset Railway are particularly mentioned as being in a bit of financial bother.

 

Not all is doom and gloom, some lines are in better positions than others. Good luck to them  - they need all the support they can get. Perhaps not all will survive sad it is to say.

 

Brit15

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by APOLLO
typo

[LMS2968]

Just on the Radio 4 news too.

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Lots of issues really. Future availability / source of coal, ageing workforce (paid & volunteer), rising costs, falling visitors / members etc etc. Such matters seem to get worse year on year.

 

I've just been reading this months "Steam Railway" mag - all the above points (and many more) seem to be mentioned monthly. Always lots of appeals also for very big sums - hundreds or thousands £ in some cases. In this months mag the Bluebell Railway and the West Somerset Railway are particularly mentioned as being in a bit of financial bother.

 

Not all is doom and gloom, some lines are in better positions than others. Good luck to them  - they need all the support they can get. Perhaps not all will survive sad it is to say.

 

Brit15

 

 

WSR has an an Extraordinary GM to agree changes to their Memorandum of Articles & Association, they are facing a start future unless they make changes, the motion was passed with the alternative that the WSR would be a cycle path in a few years otherwise.

 

http://www.wsr.org.uk/news.htm#1862

 

Heritage railways, look pretty, horrendously expensive to run.

[ejstubbs]

3 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

for the less assertive and inexperienced youngsters it is just not very welcoming I am sorry to say.

 

I found that to be the case even back in the 1970s.

[Alex TM]

Hi folks,

 

Lots of factors seem to be involved, including what appears to be folk being a little more cautious with money on the approach to Hallowe'en.

 

For my part, I am not involved in preservation any more for two reasons:

 

- first, the society I was involved with preferred us to make ourselves available on the busiest days, which were/are Saturday and Sunday.  That was fine when I worked Monday to Friday, but that's long since changed

- second, as has already been mentioned, was the "it's my trainset, and I'm going to throw a tantrum if I don't get what I want" mentality.  Some of the worst offenders were well paid professionals away from the trainset in question.

 

These problems aren't confined to RPSs.  Where I grew up there was a dreadful attitude to young folk at golf and bowling clubs too; one golf course became unplayable over time, while the worst offending bowling green has been built upon - neither wanted folk under 40 to play - it killed the clubs in question.

 

Whinging over.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Gwiwer]

8 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

I heard a headline on the Radio 2 13.00 news...………..

 

HERITAGE RAILWAYS MAY BE RUNNING OUT OF STEAM 

 

Didn't hear any more ………….. any idea what this is about?

I suspect the item is referring to the threatened ban on steam trains on account of the noxious products of combustion they of necessity emit.  The Railway Magazine has a feature this month arising from various governmental noises.

 

Whilst theoretically well intentioned this misses several key points.  Heritage steam railways produce a very tiny fraction of greenhouse gases compared with other sources.  Heritage railways mostly also operate diesel trains which emit more in the way of noxious gases yet have been omitted from the threat.  Heritage railways are local employers, retainers of skills, trainers and are a very large tourist draw-card.  Kill steam and you kill all of that.  Very few if any would survive entirely on diesel traction and how long would that last before it too fell foul of an emissions directive?

 

I suspect that the heritage rail industry as a whole will organise a lobby and seek derogations.  Whether those are blanket, line by line, loco by loco or allow steaming on a permitted number of days only time will tell.  

 

[Mallard60022]

A few years back (well 20 or so) The Bluebell was the second biggest tourist draw in Sussex. They employed some excellent Business Managers who's main task was building the visitor experience as almost all of the stalwart railway bods were in no way any good at looking after those that paid the money. They were brilliant at playing with trains in all sorts of ways of course. I am not sure if the railway still has an employed BM and they have expanded and improved facilities brilliantly in the last ten years. Maybe they are now stretched too thinly financially? Not sure about the West Somerset but 'something' wasn't quite right down there recently. However it is easily the best HR in that part of the world and with a large holiday complex at one end (Butlins).

The NYMR is also a huge tourist attraction; I wonder how they are doing after their TV series? K & WVR. How long can they live on "My daddy, my daddy"? 

Must be costs I should speculate in all cases?

Phil

[dhjgreen]

If you look at the NYMR website it shows they have raised £9M in 2 years.

[hmrspaul]

None of you appear to have seen the ITV news last night which featured this for several minutes as the final item - and had a very nice friendly sign off comment. All to do with problems of getting volunteers and included SVR mentioning having IIRC 19 youthful paid apprentices (although I think she said only 1 year long). It also gave the number of heritage railways with some emphasis on the excess - I forget the figure but about 160. What wasn't mentioned was how many transport museums etc have closed in recent years. [No mention of problems of coal supplies]

 

Paul

[Froxfield2012]

This is just a casual observation and may be very wide of the mark, but I have felt for some time that there were too many heritage railways for long term survival.  Standard gauge lines require enormous amounts of time invested to maintain infrastructure: never mind rolling stock!  This May I made a visit to the narrow gauge lines in North and mid-Wales and was mightily impressed by what I found, decades after my last visits to those lines.  Talyllyn, Vale of Rheidol, Ffestiniog, Welsh Highland:  all were in pristine condition.  No tatty run down BR Mk1 coaches there!!!  I am convinced it is partly due to the scale of things and of course the originals were designed for minimal costs: imagine the size of facility required to replicate the scope of Boston Lodge in standard gauge.  Then they sit in a major tourist area, with glorious scenery:  no tatty inner-cityscapes.  As a member of the TRPS I will confess my favouritism(!), but another factor is I think the major (and I think successful effort) to engage junior supporters in active work.  I note the regular videos coming out of Porthmadog, which also highlight the efforts of their younger crew.

 

Another major threat must be the kind of internecine strife seen at some of heritage railways over the years?!?

[Tim V]

I am afraid I agree about the volunteers. I have seen too many railways where all the fun operational jobs on the railway were being done by older men, their wives running the catering/shops. No youngsters in sight. A few more years, and no one will be capable/interested in running those lines.

 

Until you get the the Talyllyn. There are a mixture of ages and sexes running the railway, everywhere you look there are people across the age range in all the important jobs. The age profile of the volunteers is great. Is there a future for the TR? I think there is.

 

 

[phil-b259]

5 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

A few years back (well 20 or so) The Bluebell was the second biggest tourist draw in Sussex. They employed some excellent Business Managers who's main task was building the visitor experience as almost all of the stalwart railway bods were in no way any good at looking after those that paid the money. They were brilliant at playing with trains in all sorts of ways of course. I am not sure if the railway still has an employed BM and they have expanded and improved facilities brilliantly in the last ten years.

Phil

 

The issue at the Bluebell is that the operating costs come is at around £200k more than the income bought in by said operations. Things like the Flying Scotsman visit and filming income helps close the gap - but by their very nature those 'extra' revenue earning things cannot be relied on.

 

While there is no immediate threat, losses like this are unsustainable and WILL end up threatening the existence of the railway unless action is taken to fill the monetary gap.

 

As the now departed Chairman of the PLC said at the last AGM, it is all very well the Bluebell Railway Preservation Society ruling out diesel operations (other than the odd gala with visitors) - but that stance removes one easy way of helping to close the gap so we need to be more inventive.  Being located in the SouthEast with a high cost of living things like wage costs are an issue, while because Sussex is officially an 'affluent area the options for grant funding are less than is the case for some lines. Reducing the running days this year in the off peak months rather than running something every day from May to October is one of the approaches being tried - raising ticket prices and membership rates are others, but of course with all these options you run the risk of turning folk away.

 

On the plus side, things like the STEM (Science, technology, engineering and mathematics themed event earlier this year was a great success in attracting visitors - as has the 'Steam through the ages event (interoperating the traditional WW2 theme at Horsted Keynes).

 

However these are not enough - particularly with things like coal, electricity and water bills continuing to rise - plus the level of restoration / repair work on the fleet becoming more and more onerous as time passes.

 

The thing to remember is that although the WSR and the Bluebell are the only ones who have talked about it publicly - the 'funding gap between operations and revenue is something ALL Heritage Railways need to face up too .

Edited August 23, 2019 by phil-b259

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, AlexHolt said:

Thought I'd share my thoughts and experiences on this regarding a shortage of young people. I myself am young in my 20s. I used to volunteer at a heritage railway for many years. The experience there has completely put me off the preservation movement, all I care about are my models now. 

 

There was a group of about 5 of us that volunteered there in the sheds/yard. All over 16 which was the minimum age to volunteer at that railway, with most of us being 18 or above. The way that the older generation of volunteers treated us was nothing short of disgusting. We'd constantly get comments from the older volunteers such as 'where are you parents' 'people your age arent allowed to be here' 'why are you here'. A couple of the most noticeable times this happened was when we got down there, asked to help out with a group working on a locomotive overhaul and got told 'we already have enough people working on this'. Thought fair enough, but then about 20 minutes later more older volunteers showed up and instantly got to help out whilst we had been told to go away. No tools or qualifications were needed for this job, it was cleaning dirt off some brake gear for a loco with a scraper.  Another noticeable issue we had was when we were cleaning a locomotive and one of the older volunteers quite literally had a tantrum about how he didn't like young people and didn't want us there. He went on to say things about how he was a driver with west coast railways so he had more authority at the railway. 

 

Another notable issue with this was that there was absolutely zero progression for us younger volunteers. We volunteered there for 3 years putting up with the we kept getting given by the older volunteers. We would constantly get given the worst jobs to do, we wouldn't get to ever do anything interesting, an example is that we always had to be the ones to break up wooden pallets for lighting the fires and cleaning out the ash pit, now I wouldn't have a problem with this if the older volunteers actually ever did this as well and if we actually were ever allowed to do anything other than just this. You would never see the older volunteers doing the bad or boring jobs. We were excluded from helping out because of our age. When a new volunteer joined that was older within a few weeks he would have progressed to the level above us and be allowed to help out with restorations etc. Us younger volunteers were completely denied that, we were unable to progress and were constantly put down by the older generation of volunteers there. 

 

I don't see how the preservation movement expects to continue when this is how they treat their younger volunteers.  No wonder they are struggling to find new people. No wonder young people 'lose interest' in the preservation movement when this is how we are treated when we actually try to get involved. Everyone I knew at that railway stopped going, I carried on for a while but even I left too. This is why I just stick to making models now. 

That is very sad, but sadly that has been the case at many places for so many years. The more enlightened set ups have young people in a grade system and with mentors and if the adults don't like that then they don't get perks! Anyone joining needs to expect be to starting on the shop floor so to speak and that shouldn't be a problem, but if they don't meet with you at the start and find out your interests, strengths and weaknesses and keep up with your progress then they ae useless and deserve to fail. There will still be some banter, kidding and that sort of stuff, however it is part of getting into the 'gang'. Someone at the railway needs to know about youngsters and how to deal with them and if there isn't someone then the place will fade away. They are also missing out of they don't 'scout'. A friend of mine, a retired and experienced SR Fireman (1967) nad also long term Telephone Engineer, moved to Cornwall well over 10 years ago and visited the Bodmin and whatever line to see the Pacific he drove often out of Nine Elms. He was still quite young and fit. Bodmin the WC Pacific was there and he went to speak with the footplate crew and was made as welcome as a wet winter's day in the middle of Dartmoor. He was not impressed and left shortly afterwards suggesting to his other half that the railway was not very welcoming. That one off-putting experience lost them a possible volunteer with laods of usable experience. I wrote to the Chairman of the Railway as I was disgusted. I got a very good letter back, promptly too, with profuse apologies and inviting the chap back for a good day's experience. MY friend did not want to and didn't go back....sadly having decided he would concentrate on developing new interests in gardening and house building. That sort of thing must be typical and how many people that are enthused when they visit, express an interest in the Railways and then get no welcome or invitation or follow up and so are 'lost' is indicative of the poor management many of these places have.

Pah!

P

Edited August 23, 2019 by Mallard60022

[brianusa]

A lot has to do with the attitude of individuals.  Having volunteered over here running passenger excursions you get more of the action.  While the running of the train is left to the professionals, volunteers make it work from the publics point of view; meet and greet , clean up, be a guide, hold hands and do that peculiar American task, make sure the steps are set beneath the doors.  Not that many platforms here!

     Brian

[Georgeconna]

Its the cost for me, Last year was the first time I visited Swanage and did not take a trip on the line, With a family it is just too expensive. I watched the trains go by each day with a handful of seats taken up. £31 pounds from Harmens cross and back, 2 adults and 3 kids. No thanks I took the car and found free parking nearby n the town but bought some stuff in the shop to throw some cash thier way.

 

[PhilH]

4 hours ago, AlexHolt said:

Thought I'd share my thoughts and experiences on this regarding a shortage of young people. I myself am young in my 20s. I used to volunteer at a heritage railway for many years. The experience there has completely put me off the preservation movement, all I care about are my models now. 

 

There was a group of about 5 of us that volunteered there in the sheds/yard. All over 16 which was the minimum age to volunteer at that railway, with most of us being 18 or above. The way that the older generation of volunteers treated us was nothing short of disgusting. We'd constantly get comments from the older volunteers such as 'where are you parents' 'people your age arent allowed to be here' 'why are you here'. A couple of the most noticeable times this happened was when we got down there, asked to help out with a group working on a locomotive overhaul and got told 'we already have enough people working on this'. Thought fair enough, but then about 20 minutes later more older volunteers showed up and instantly got to help out whilst we had been told to go away. No tools or qualifications were needed for this job, it was cleaning dirt off some brake gear for a loco with a scraper.  Another noticeable issue we had was when we were cleaning a locomotive and one of the older volunteers quite literally had a tantrum about how he didn't like young people and didn't want us there. He went on to say things about how he was a driver with west coast railways so he had more authority at the railway. 

 

Another notable issue with this was that there was absolutely zero progression for us younger volunteers. We volunteered there for 3 years putting up with the we kept getting given by the older volunteers. We would constantly get given the worst jobs to do, we wouldn't get to ever do anything interesting, an example is that we always had to be the ones to break up wooden pallets for lighting the fires and cleaning out the ash pit, now I wouldn't have a problem with this if the older volunteers actually ever did this as well and if we actually were ever allowed to do anything other than just this. You would never see the older volunteers doing the bad or boring jobs. We were excluded from helping out because of our age. When a new volunteer joined that was older within a few weeks he would have progressed to the level above us and be allowed to help out with restorations etc. Us younger volunteers were completely denied that, we were unable to progress and were constantly put down by the older generation of volunteers there. 

 

I don't see how the preservation movement expects to continue when this is how they treat their younger volunteers.  No wonder they are struggling to find new people. No wonder young people 'lose interest' in the preservation movement when this is how we are treated when we actually try to get involved. Everyone I knew at that railway stopped going, I carried on for a while but even I left too. This is why I just stick to making models now. 

 

Bit of a sweeping generalisation in that last paragraph...the other side of the coin is that on the railway I've just given up volunteering on after thirty years there are numerous lads, well ,all in their  mid twenties so lads to me, who started as juniors  in the loco dept up there aged about 11 or 12. They stuck with it, 6 are now drivers, some firemen and one is the engineering manager so progression is there for those who show they are capable of progression.

 

You can't just expect progression, you have to be good enough, especially in safety critical roles, but unfortunately some expect it  as a right.

 

You obviously had a bad experience, but please don't make the generalisation that all heritage railways are the same, they're not.

Edited August 23, 2019 by PhilH

[brack]

1 hour ago, Georgeconna said:

With a family it is just too expensive.

Theres definitely something in this. Yes costs are rising and everything else but some of the prices would make me think twice if I was alone, then i have to factor in wife and kids. Time also becomes a factor (have a toddler). If the journey is too long i know there'll be boredom or tiredness and accompanying meltdown.

Enthusiasts often wish to build a big extension or get back to X or Y (which is understandable, commendable and having a big goal or project can galvanise support or give you something to work towards), but if it makes the journey too expensive or too long it might well just put people off and add significantly to running/maintenance expenses.

Edited August 23, 2019 by brack

[phil-b259]

59 minutes ago, Georgeconna said:

Its the cost for me, Last year was the first time I visited Swanage and did not take a trip on the line, With a family it is just too expensive. I watched the trains go by each day with a handful of seats taken up. £31 pounds from Harmens cross and back, 2 adults and 3 kids. No thanks I took the car and found free parking nearby n the town but bought some stuff in the shop to throw some cash thier way.

 

 

And this goes back to something the current BRPS chairman said at the AGM - the days of a family just being happy with a train ride are over!

 

Now obviously in your case, cost was an issues - but in reality its all part of the same thing.

 

Locos etc are getting ever older (as are the buildings, carriages etc) so restorations are becoming more expensive. People are demanding modern facilities like cafes (not housed in old Portakabins / old coaches) accessible modern  toilets (not some 1950s open air urinal), etc. Al this costs money and so fares have to rise to pay for them.

 

But as the fares rise, as you observed, the impression is they do not provide good value for money.

 

This can be alleviated by making the visit 'more than just a train ride' and more akin to the principle which theme parks operate on - i.e. pay a fairly steep entry charge but once inside enjoy all the activities for no extra charge.

 

On the Bluebell we have been fortunate to secure  external funding which has allowed :-

 

• at Kingscote, the creation of a childs playground
• at Horsted Keynes, the creation of an air conditioned play area inside a old parcels van formerly used to carry circus elephants) , a model railway in the waiting room on platforms 1+2, plus a viewing / exhibition area area at the end of the carriage works (you can see the restoration taking place plus learn about various aspects of coach building)
• at Sheffield Park,an extensive museum with some interactive features including a signal box where you can operate the levers and a signal plus the new interactive 'steam works display / educational area in the running shed.

 

All of which is included in the ticket price - and most tickets allow you to have as many rides along the line as you want.

 

Likewise, The Severn Valley have a good museum at Kidderminster plus the excellent engine house at Highly while the Isle of Wight Railway have their excellent 'Train story exhibition at Havenstreet - and have just won a grant towards something else too. Again all covered by your train ticket.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by phil-b259

[nick_bastable]

sorry expense is a relative thing a family ticket on KESR 2+2 or 1 + 3  is £42, it costs £35 for a cheap day to London for me from the Kent coast

 

Nick

Edited August 23, 2019 by nick_bastable
$ sign used

[Dava]

Maybe there are just too many preserved lines/Centres in some areas for all to be sustainable?

 

Looking at the Staffs/Leics/Derbyshire region of central England, there are 3 standard gauge lines in each county, plus a few narrow gauge, 9 in all [counting the GCRN in Leics and which ultimately needs to unite with the GCR to be sustainable]. Barrow Hill makes 10.

 

Some of them have a quite local or specialized market, such as Chasewater and Foxfield. But looking at Derbyshire, 3 ex-Midland lines in close proximity. One community railway [Ecclesbourne valley] which has done amazingly well over the 15 years since it got started. Peak Rail chunters along offering a steam train ride in a tourist area. No prospect of reaching Buxton.

 

Then we have Midland Railway at Butterley, great Idea back in the 1970s, now hosts all sorts of societies like PRCLT and HMRS doing good work. But look at the visitor experience and the dire TripAdvisor reviews. It is still a dusty part-completed site with a grotty cafe.   Apart from the vintage train a few days a year, what is special or new?

 

I predict a few mergers and closures in the next five years, unless they rethink their offer in the heritage leisure market.

 

Dava

[Bucoops]

We don't get to many railways, but we usually try and do one per UK holiday. One thing we have noticed is there isn't usually a choice of ticket - it's an all day rover or a per-journey ticket. We prefer the per journey ticket as most of the time the railway we visit is on the way to somewhere else so having to buy an all day rover works out very expensive as we will only do one round trip. Choice would be better so if you only want (or have time for)  return trip that is offered at a lower cost than an all day rover which should be offered at a lower cost than (say) two round trips.