Imaginary Locomotives

[tomparryharry]

On 15/03/2020 at 21:08, Northmoor said:

Mmmm, fisherman's tales?  Either your calculations were iffy Gibbo or someone else's were.  It's interesting that I have never read of any of these quoted high speed runs before, so presumably they all took place with empty stock, after dark and with no other witnesses (or indeed journey logs).  If any steam loco had exceeded 75mph, let alone 100mph, during the era of the 60mph limit for steam, either the crews would have been banned from driving on the national network or steam operation would have ceased altogether.  

This sounds a bit like the person who claimed to have done 60mph on an Austerity tank on the Watercress Line.

 

The story of the high-speed Austerity is true, being towed by a Merchant Navy at the time..... JOKE. Having done several thousand turns on an Austerity, I can assure you that should such a speed is attained, then the locomotive would be thrashed to death. From a preservation standpoint, you'd be off the job- permanently. I've had the unfortunate experience around here of seeing a loco thrashed:- And I mean thrashed by people who think they 'know it all', being born some 20 years after the  last loco left Nine Elms.... You know what I mean....

 

Evening Star had some higher-speed turns, when at Didcot. Enough speed for the loco caretaker to change his underpants. The regular Didcot crew loved it, being old hands, and knew where the working envelope existed.

[JimC]

On 16/03/2020 at 11:38, The Johnster said:

2904 Lady of Lyon is alleged to have achieved 135mph between Hullavington and Little Somerford in 1906, based on the passing times at the signal boxes.

I do wish people wouldn't repeat the 135 number. Signal box timings were to the nearest 30 seconds, the clocks weren't synchronised (other than once a day), and all that number means, IIRC, is something between 100 and 170. The story certainly grows in the telling: I haven't heard the Wootton Basset stop one before although Tuplin produced a particularly highly coloured set of speculations. 
The report in the Railway Magazine was as follows.
Two Miles a Minute

During January last a statement obtained wide currency in the daily press that Mr. H. J. Robinson, then just about to retire from the position of Chief Locomotive Inspector on the Great Western Railway, had been responsible for driving a locomotive in this country at a speed of 120 miles per hour. It is needless to say that readers of The Railway Magazine who are familiar with all the speeds hitherto claimed as railway records, and in particular with the figure of 102-3 m.p.h. achieved down Wellington bank of the G.W.R. on May 9, 1904, which from that day to this has had an unchallenged supremacy, are interested to know on what authority this new claim has been made, as is evidenced by the extensive correspondence we have received on the subject. We therefore wrote Mr. C. B. Collett, the Chief Mechanical Engineer of the Great Western Railway, who communicated to us an interesting account of what actually occurred.

It appears that in May, 1906, No. 2903 one of the newly introduced 2-cylinder 4-6-0 locomotives and herself fresh from the shops was taken for a trial run light from Swindon to Stoke Gifford, with the intention, after running the engine round the Filton-Patchway triangle, of having "a sharp run" back. Signal checks were experienced, however, and No. 2903 was then stopped at Chipping Sodbury until "line clear" had been obtained through to Wootton Bassett, after which she was re-started, and there was evidently some running of a very startling order down the 1 in 300 from Badminton to Little Somerford.

The purpose of the run was to demonstrate that an engine taken straight from the shops could be run at over 100 miles per hour. Those on the footplate included Mr. Collett, who was then Assistant Manager of the Locomotive Works, Mr. G. H. Flewellen, who was Locomotive Inspector, and the Foreman of the Erecting Shop, Mr. Evans. The timing for some distance by the mileposts with a stop watch was given as 120 miles per hour, and the clocking between the signal-boxes of Little Somerford and Hullavington was booked as two minutes for the 4½ miles.

Mr. Collett points out that, while the object of running a new engine on its first trip at over 100 miles per hour was achieved, the timing could not be regarded as accurate and that the 102-3 m.p.h. record of "City of Truro" in 1904, made under the personal observation of one of the most careful recorders of his time the late Charles Rous-Marten with the aid of a chronograph reading to one-fifth parts of a second, must remain the best duly authenticated railway speed record that this country has yet witnessed.
 

One may speculate - although there's much too much speculation on the topic - that the crew on the footplate had a stopwatch of limited accuracy - one second perhaps as opposed to the 1/5 second stop watches of Rous Marten - hence the rather round number.  I think that if they got say a 15 second half mile with a 1 second watch that only means anything between 112.5 and 128.5 even ignoring the possibility of operator error, which demonstrates that the actual speed may not have been utterly beyond the bounds of credibility and also why it would have been unsuitable to claim as a record.

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by JimC

[Hroth]

9 minutes ago, JimC said:

It appears that in May, 1906, No. 2903 one of the newly introduced 2-cylinder 4-6-0 locomotives and herself fresh from the shops was taken for a trial run light from Swindon to Stoke Gifford, with the intention, after running the engine round the Filton-Patchway triangle, of having "a sharp run" back. Signal checks were experienced, however, and No. 2903 was then stopped at Chipping Sodbury until "line clear" had been obtained through to Wootton Bassett, after which she was re-started, and there was evidently some running of a very startling order down the 1 in 300 from Badminton to Little Somerford.

The purpose of the run was to demonstrate that an engine taken straight from the shops could be run at over 100 miles per hour. Those on the footplate included Mr. Collett, who was then Assistant Manager of the Locomotive Works, Mr. G. H. Flewellen, who was Locomotive Inspector, and the Foreman of the Erecting Shop, Mr. Evans. The timing for some distance by the mileposts with a stop watch was given as 120 miles per hour, and the clocking between the signal-boxes of Little Somerford and Hullavington was booked as two minutes for the 4½ miles.

Mr. Collett points out that, while the object of running a new engine on its first trip at over 100 miles per hour was achieved, the timing could not be regarded as accurate and that the 102-3 m.p.h. record of "City of Truro" in 1904, made under the personal observation of one of the most careful recorders of his time the late Charles Rous-Marten with the aid of a chronograph reading to one-fifth parts of a second, must remain the best duly authenticated railway speed record that this country has yet witnessed.

 

I'd also suspect that at that sort of speed, the ride on the footplate would be fairly lively and that stopwatch readings would be more or less conjectural...

 

But it does seem that something better than City of Truros maximum was achieved by 2903, even if not "officially" recorded.  Its a pity that Collet didn't put a case forward to Churchward to repeat the run with the GWR Dynanometer car!  Call it a brakes test or something? 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Of course this was done light engine - City of Truro's load would have had a considerable retarding effect though friction and air resistance. I have no doubt that a Saint would have been perfectly capable of achieving 100+ mph light engine on a 1:300 falling gradient but I suspect that a great many other classes of the 1890s and 1910s would have been able to do likewise - certainly any of those recorded at 90+ mph.

[Niels]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Of course this was done light engine - City of Truro's load would have had a considerable retarding effect though friction and air resistance. I have no doubt that a Saint would have been perfectly capable of achieving 100+ mph light engine on a 1:300 falling gradient but I suspect that a great many other classes of the 1890s and 1910s would have been able to do likewise - certainly any of those recorded at 90+ mph.

Problem with this story is that a two cylinder saint starts to lift wheels at 102 mph when balanced as the ones used for bridge stress testing (Report 1927 I think)

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Niels said:

Problem with this story is that a two cylinder saint starts to lift wheels at 102 mph when balanced as the ones used for bridge stress testing (Report 1927 I think)

 

Was that by observation or calculation, and would the phenomenon be affected by the drawbar load?

 

Charles Rous-Marten claimed to have timed a GW Atbara at 97.5 mph and a Midland Belpaire at 96 mph, though he never published any details; and sustained speeds of 93 mph between Penrith and Carlisle with a LNWR Experiment and 92 mph coming down Ribblesdale with one of the original pair of Smith-Johnson compounds - No. 2362 of course. The compound, having three cylinders, would have been easier on the track but those other two-cylinder 4-4-0s must have been bouncing around as well as giving the track a pounding. It would be interesting to know at what speed they would have been lifting their wheels.

[The Johnster]

Tuplin's version is what it is, Tuplin's, and must be regarded in that light.  He spins a good and entertaining yarn.  It includes some purple prose about Churchward giving them all a b*ll*cking when he found out, and the panic on the footplate as the regulator could not be shut because of the vacuum created behind the valves at this insane speed (I'm not quite certain what Bill Tuplin was on about with this, and I'm not sure he was either).  The legend as I related it, without claiming any of it to be historical fact you note, is as I heard it in the mess cabin at Swindon in the 70s, the point being that Wootton Bassett up distant was on when they sighted it and they had no hope of pulling the light engine up in time to stop at the home.  The Wootton Bassett signalman cleared the home before they reached it, and the starter as well but it must have been a scary experience, and I am sure it 'informed' Collett's attitude to high speed exploits in the 30s.  He was already running the fastest train in the world, of course, on the best railway in the world...

 

Worth mentioning that even officially sanctioned runs can be a bit hairy, citing the example of Coronation Scot's 114mph record and the broken crockery as they came into Crewe a bit quicker than they were expecting to.  High speed on railways is only safe when it is a daily routine event, which means that the track and stock is maintained to that level and everybody is used to how quickly things happen.  One off events have all sorts of risks attached to them; a classic example is CoT's adventure on Wellington Bank.  The gangers, conditioned to speeds of perhaps 70 or 80 at that location on the up main, had no concept of how quickly the train was closing on them and left the scene at the speed and with the degree of urgency that they were used to despite having acknowledged Clemens' whistle.  Tuplin again dramatises the incident with purple prose but he is probably close enough to the mark when he says that Clemens was game for it but not about to kill anyone, so he shut off steam and put the brake in.  Tuplin now claims that Charles Rous-Marten with his stopwatch in the leading bag tender was furious, but I very much doubt that; he must have observed the platelayers himself and understood the reason for Clemens' (perfectly correct and justifiable) action.  

 

Another Tuplin story, this time about the Great Central, concerns a train running from Leicester to Rugby without a driver.  He'd observed a courting couple on the platform at Leicester who had got into the leading compartment of the first coach, and left the footplate to clamber around the tender and watch the 'action', leaving the train in the charge of the fireman who, though concerned at his mate's disappearance, brought the train to a stand at Rugby on time; it was at this point that the driver was reported missing, and an LNW driver with route knowledge to Marylebone found to take the train forward.  Our original driver, or what was left of him, was found in the 4 foot not far from the point at which he'd left the footplate when the line was searched. 

 

I find this tale very highly unlikely.  A top link driver abandoning his post for such a reason is unlikely enough, though possible I suppose.  Surely he would have realised that the young couple would have pulled the blinds down and there was nothing to see even if we accept that leaning out from the rear tender steps hanging on to the handrail could give him an 'angle' to observe anything.  Then we are asked to believe that the fireman continued to drive the train instead of pulling up when the driver did not respond to whistles and could not be seen from the cab.  He would surely have climbed over the coal to the back of the tender to see that his mate was safe, and stopped at the next box to get the line searched when it was clear he had departed the scene; the story is great fun but doesn't hold water.

 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Niels said:

Problem with this story is that a two cylinder saint starts to lift wheels at 102 mph when balanced as the ones used for bridge stress testing (Report 1927 I think)

Tuplin was aware of this and claims that Lady of Lyon was lifting off the track 8 times every second.  I have no idea if the wheel lifting actually occurs or is a calculation, and I do not suggest finding out with Lady of Quality...

[Compound2632]

There's Tuplin and there's what actually happened, with Rous-Marten somewhere between the two but on the whole probably rather closer to the latter.

[rodent279]

Going back to 2903, I guess the Badminton route at that time would have still been nearly new, so the track and ballasting should have been in good nick, and nicely bedded in. Can't say I'd like to have been on the footplate though!

Edited March 18, 2020 by rodent279

[Compound2632]

53 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Going back to 2903, I guess the Badminton route at that time would have still been nearly new, so the track and ballasting should have been in good nick, and nicely bedded in. Can't say I'd like to have been on the footplate though!

 

I've read* that when the Birmingham two-hour expresses were first put on, the practice was to go easy on the new line and then hard once the old line had been joined at Aynho Jn, as the old road had had 60 years to be fully consolidated. 

 

*Nock, I think, so treat with some caution.

[Clive Mortimore]

I use to enjoy this thread with its wacky imaginary locos. It has turned into "I have read more technical books than you and the designs wouldn't work". Who cares they are imaginary....not real.

 

It appears by the lack of those lovely wacky designs I am not the only one who is turning away from it. We seem to have lost many of those wonderful designers of imaginary locos. 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Clive Mortimore

[Corbs]

I like my imaginary designs to be as real as possible

 

 

what the

[AlfaZagato]

Fairlie-Mallet-Garrett?  I can't even think of a silly way to compound the word.   Maybe off of Bulleid's bench?

[Corbs]

Ca-Fo-Fa-Ga?

[rockershovel]

11 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I use to enjoy this thread with its wacky imaginary locos. It has turned into "I have read more technical books than you and the designs wouldn't work". Who cares they are imaginary....not real.

 

It appears by the lack of those lovely wacky designs I am not the only one who is turning away from it. We seem to have lost many of those wonderful designers of imaginary locos. 

 

That’s quite a good point. I took the opposite view; being an engineer, I could never take much interest in locos which had no credible basis in reality. I’ve always had a passing interest in never-wazzers, locos which MIGHT have been built but weren’t for whatever reason; I’m interested in extensions or projections of existing designs or concepts which for whatever reason, aren’t feasible; but unbuildable flights of fancy? Not so much...

 

 

[Hroth]

11 hours ago, Corbs said:

I like my imaginary designs to be as real as possible

 

 

what the

 

Shorten the cab in the middle and extend the bunkers at the ends, you don't need much room to supervise the oil-firing equipment.

Apart from that, I think you've hit the nail on the head!

[Corbs]

Maybe they need room for the fridge, on board loo, sofa etc?

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

9 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

Fairlie-Mallet-Garrett?  

 

I prefer a Lesley Garrett myself

 

[Ramblin Rich]

5 hours ago, Corbs said:

Ca-Fo-Fa-Ga?

The exact same words I used on my last trip home from the pub

[RedGemAlchemist]

5 hours ago, Corbs said:

Ca-Fo-Fa-Ga?

Want your bad romance.

[rodent279]

Ok, not quite an imaginary locomotive as an imaginary fleet for you-what if Stanier had been poached by the LNER in 1933? Say Gresley dies in office in 1933, or retires early due to ill health?

Or what if Gresley himself had moved across to Crewe?

Go figure. Let your Imaginations run wild.

 

Edit: following on from this, Collet decides he's had enough in 1937, and wants to spend more time tending his roses. Either Hawksworth takes the chair 4 years earlier, or Bulleid gets parachuted in to Swindon.

Edited March 19, 2020 by rodent279

[Hroth]

44 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Bulleid gets parachuted in to Swindon.

 

Ca-Fo-Fa-Ga.......

[rockershovel]

7 hours ago, Corbs said:

Ca-Fo-Fa-Ga?

 

 

[Nick_Burman]

On 15/03/2020 at 16:32, RLBH said:

Large wheels have historically been needed to reduce the speed of reciprocating parts.

 

Thisis partly because high piston speed makes lubrication difficult, which can be mitigated by having a shorter piston stroke. As lubricants improved, this became less of an issue.

 

The other reason is vehicle dynamics. With two pistons at 90 degrees, there's always an unbalanced load due to the pistons and rods moving back and forth. This makes the locomotive surge, jump off the tracks, or do other exciting things that aren't good for it, the tracks, the train, and anything else that might be on the train.

 

With three or more cylinders set up correctly, the horizontal and vertical unbalanced load due to reciprocating masses can be eliminated. In principle I think it works for two cylinders 180 degrees apart, though in that case you can't start the locomotive with the pistons at dead centre. To fully eliminate unbalanced loading, you need six cylinders. But I don't think anyone was that worried about balancing!

 

The Norfolk & Western J class 4-8-4s had 5'10" driving wheels and yet could keep a passenger train rolling at 60mph without tearing either itself or the track to pieces. Once one hit 110mph while hauling a 15 coach train (over 1000tons) during a test on the PRR's Fort Wayne Division (a very straight and level section of the Pennsy).

 

In an old issue of "Trains" magazine a former N&W management employee recalled how once he was called to help shepherd a stricken J class who had suffered a broken connecting rod while hauling a passenger train back to Roanoke Shops for repair. Rather than wait for a tow, the crew chose to field strip the damaged side and return slowly light engine, running on one side only. Having dismantled the affected side, the locomotive set off at 10mph with nary an undue shake or vibration. The engineman decided to try and open up to 20mph, again no strange vibrations. At a nod, he opened up further, 30mph, no problem... by the time Roanoke came into sight they were cruising at 60mph! The author of the recollection remembers the look of sheer astonishment and disbelief from the crews of trains passing in the opposite direction at seeing this "one-legged" J roaring by as if everything was normal!

 

Cheers Nicholas