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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


Hattons Dave
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6 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

It could all be put in ten pages or less.

 

Only if people were prepared to check beforehand that the point they were raising or the opinion they were offering was (a) factually correct and (b) not already raised and answered.

 

Anyway, I've had some fun along the way. 

 

6 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

No.

 

Case in point: I had already given the same answer to the question! 

Edited by Compound2632
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They look very nice, and quite similar to the 1879 block set (4-wheelers) and 1900/1901 block set carriages (6-wheelers, excepting the brake 3rd), if you ignore the duckets being the wrong shape, and the 6-wheelers having arc rather than elliptical roofs. 

However, I think you must be getting confused with livery colours - the LSWR livery was "Salmon and brown" (c.f. Weddell "LSWR Carriages", "Southern Style" and "HMRS Livery Register"). Invisible green was a Cambrian Railway loco livery!

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In the end the comparison between the long period of development (including RMweb input) of the Hattons' coaches and the clearly rushed Hornby version is going to come down to what the buyer wants in a generic vehicle.  I think in most cases the buyers will accept generic coaches because they appreciate there is little or no chance of getting an accurate for their chosen cpmpany vehicle in r-t-r form and they might not be prepared or  able to go down the pathe of using kits (assuming kits are available for the Company of their choosing).

 

So how do you choose between Hattons and Hornby?  Well inevitably in some respects it might be a subjective choice but if you want some decent detail - such as having the correct parts which make the brakes work in the real world - you will opt for the Hattons models whch are streets ahead of Hornby in respect of detail to a far greater extent than the lower Hornby price would seem to reflect.  And in their overall appearance the Hattons vehicles have the advantage of reflecting the work that has gone in to achieving that.

 

If you want cheaper and cheerful and are happy with near naked undergubbins and various other errors of detail you will probably go for Hornby.  And if you're prepared, or want,  to do some modelling for yourself to put in the bits Hornby have missed out there's probably  more 'modelling fun' in the Hornby version.    Thus in some respects there is really no competition between the two;  you pays your money and you makes your choice - for either a comptrehensively detailed vehicle or one which isn't.  

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12 minutes ago, AVS1998 said:

Now to get onto the SECR Society and ask my contacts what we think the diagram is... Because I don't know, myself. 

 

With square-cornered panelling, it's presumably ex-LCDR. (I suspect it's also shorter - nearer 30ft than 32ft.)

 

I wish you joy of chiselling all the round corners out of the panelling on the Genesis carriage!

Edited by Compound2632
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I think it must be a D&S kit. The list I have - which I think may have been the last, Spring 2005 - lists a range of LCDR 6-wheelers: a 30ft brake third and a third, composite, and brake, all 28ft.

Edited by Compound2632
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14 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

If you want cheaper and cheerful and are happy with near naked undergubbins and various other errors of detail you will probably go for Hornby.  And if you're prepared, or want,  to do some modelling for yourself to put in the bits Hornby have missed out there's probably  more 'modelling fun' in the Hornby version.    Thus in some respects there is really no competition between the two;  you pays your money and you makes your choice - for either a comptrehensively detailed vehicle or one which isn't.  

Although some of the comments are reasonable, it is a bit unfair to criticise the "naked undergubbins" as that is one area where Hornby have got things right - at least from an LBSCR perspective. They have gone with the superior Westinghouse brakes, as adopted by the LBSC and a few sensible other companies, which used a small horizontal actuating cylinder which sat neatly under the floor, with little visible below the solebar line. The Genesis range started with Westinghouse brakes, as per the first drawings, but Hatton's were pointed at vacuum brakes, with a vertical actuating cylinder and plenty of visible cranks, as that was the system more commonly used, and thus arguably more generic.

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1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

Although some of the comments are reasonable, it is a bit unfair to criticise the "naked undergubbins" as that is one area where Hornby have got things right - at least from an LBSCR perspective. They have gone with the superior Westinghouse brakes, as adopted by the LBSC and a few sensible other companies, which used a small horizontal actuating cylinder which sat neatly under the floor, with little visible below the solebar line. The Genesis range started with Westinghouse brakes, as per the first drawings, but Hatton's were pointed at vacuum brakes, with a vertical actuating cylinder and plenty of visible cranks, as that was the system more commonly used, and thus arguably more generic.

 

It's often not appreciated just how skimpy the underside of a 19th century railway vehicle was. With carriages, lower stepboards tend to disguise this (not on the Hornby models) but without electric or gas lighting, and before the 1890s, often without continuous brakes - or brakes of any sort except on brake vehicles, there's nothing there apart from the running gear. At least a wagon would have a lump of wood on a stick, at a minimum! This has a major implication for RTR stock with any of the usual coupling types - the extraneous block sticking down at each end is much more noticeable than on a BR standard wagon with brakes both sides and maybe vacuum cylinder et al

 

The Westinghouse brake might have been more widely adopted if it had not been for George Westinghouse's business practices. The Midland was well on the way to becoming a Westinghouse line in the early 80s but got into a court case over defective fittings, which led to the adoption of the vacuum brake - the first major line to do so, with the result that the universal pipe-coupler developed by S.W. Johnson and T.G. Clayton became the industry standard. The story of F.W. Webb's response to George Westinghouse's attempted bribery is well known. Once both the Midland and LNWR had adopted the automatic vacuum brake, the die was cast; lesser companies not already committed had to follow suit. It was also cheaper.

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4 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

Although some of the comments are reasonable, it is a bit unfair to criticise the "naked undergubbins" as that is one area where Hornby have got things right - at least from an LBSCR perspective. They have gone with the superior Westinghouse brakes, as adopted by the LBSC and a few sensible other companies, which used a small horizontal actuating cylinder which sat neatly under the floor, with little visible below the solebar line. The Genesis range started with Westinghouse brakes, as per the first drawings, but Hatton's were pointed at vacuum brakes, with a vertical actuating cylinder and plenty of visible cranks, as that was the system more commonly used, and thus arguably more generic.

The 'undergubbins' are indeed naked as every view we have so far seen shows.  Quite how a (limited) representation of Westinghouse brake gear underneath the vehicle goes with vacuum pipes at the end of it works I'm not really sure?  And only a few of the liveries the vehicles come with represent lines which used the Westinghouse brake (LB&SCR, BR ER exGER, and NBR until 1910).  So your final comment applies equally to the Hornby version - the majority of them represent lines using the vacuum brake although, as I said, modellers can obviously add detail.

 

As Compound 2632 has pointed out early coaching stock vehicles came with virtually nothing below the solebar.  But,as the Hattons version represents, this changed as time passed and of course from 1889 it became a legal requirement to fit an automatic continuous brake to passenger coaching stock although many railways were well ahead of that in fitting their passenger carrying vehicles.  As I said previously the choice really depends how much detail you want and whether you are happy to pay a bit extra for the considerable amount extra which the Hattons vehicles will offer - simple as that.

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Looking very nice. I can even feel myself weakening despite my best resolutions!

 

Please excuse the following didactic remark - those who dislike such things are strongly encouraged to move on swiftly:

 

@Phil Parker, you mentioned that the 6-wheeler doesn't use the Cleminson system for the underframe, which pivots the outer axles so that all axles can move to follow the of the curve - ideally keeping the axles perpendicular to the centre-line of the track. Whilst this system, or variants of it such as the one-and-a-half bogie arrangement, are often used on model 6-wheelers, on the prototype it was very rarely used on standard gauge vehicles. It was popular for narrow-gauge 6-wheelers, narrow gauge lines often having tighter curves than would be found on standard gauge lines. Standard gauge vehicles normally just had side-play on the centre axle. So in this respect, the Hattons carriages follow prototype practice (although having the axleguards etc. move isn't prototypical). Nevertheless, it's impressive that the model can be got to go round such a ridiculously tight curve! It would be interesting to see a photo of one standing on a radius 2 curve, from the outside of the curve, so one could see how noticeable the displacement of the centre axle unit is.

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Very cute little coach, why not in O? One small detail, the four wheeler came with gas lighting detail on the roof, so piping to and from lamps exits over one end of the roof, to register with pipe running up the end of the coach, opposite end to steps. As unpacked from wherever, and as repacked by your good self, the roof is ar*e backwards.

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Just now, Northroader said:

Very cute little coach, why not in O? One small detail, the four wheeler came with gas lighting detail on the roof, so piping to and from lamps exits over one end of the roof, to register with pipe running up the end of the coach, opposite end to steps. As unpacked from wherever, and as repacked by your good self, the roof is ar*e backwards.

Dapol are producing proper Stroudley coaches in O gauge throughout their lifespan which probably inspired Hattons and probably Hornby to do some in OO.

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10 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

Dapol are producing proper Stroudley coaches in O gauge throughout their lifespan which probably inspired Hattons and probably Hornby to do some in OO.

 

Question is, is there any market for improper (generic) carriages in 7 mm scale? Yes, since Connoisseur Models (Jim McGowan) do brass kits marketed as such - based closely on S&DJR prototypes, at least for the 6-wheelers.

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14 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

Dapol are producing proper Stroudley coaches in O gauge throughout their lifespan which probably inspired Hattons and probably Hornby to do some in OO.

Announced 2019, appearing ?

http://www.tower-models.com/towermodels/ogauge/Dapol/dapolcoaches/stroudley/index.htm

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5 minutes ago, Northroader said:

 

A little disturbing that one of their photos is of a Chatham carriage* when these models are avowedly of a Brighton prototype!

 

*with completely different panelling...

 

1 minute ago, Northroader said:

I suppose the point I was trying to make, was in RTR.

 

If there's a market for generic kits, there's almost certainly a market for reasonably-priced ready-made ones. Ideal for dabblers in O with limited space! Miners/works train with the Ixion Hudswell Clarke. (What I'm not really aware of is the range of etched brass kits for pre-grouping carriages in 7 mm scale; I have a suspicion it's not as wide as in 4 mm?)

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21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Question is, is there any market for improper (generic) carriages in 7 mm scale? Yes, since Connoisseur Models (Jim McGowan) do brass kits marketed as such - based closely on S&DJR prototypes, at least for the 6-wheelers.

Darstaed had this covered with their tinplate coaches.

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