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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


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This may have already been covered somewhere earlier in this thread, but can anyone who has had a sample in their hands tell me this.

 

Does the coupler mount on these coaches just swivel, or is it a proper CCU that "grows" as it turns?

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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47 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Does the coupler mount on these coaches just swivel, or is it a proper CCU that "grows" as it turns?

 

From Jenny's review, it doesn't appear so, John (ca. 8:36):

 

 

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12 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

The LSW Hornby ones are even worse judging by the one review in Model Rail as their are no underframe tanks or cylinders  -a plain open gap between axleboxes

 

Hornby's LSWR-liveried carriages are depicted with oil lamps, so they are perfectly correct in that respect.

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12 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

The LSW Hornby ones are even worse judging by the one review in Model Rail as their are no underframe tanks or cylinders  -a plain open gap between axleboxes

You mean LBSC?

The LBSC coaches (and probably all others) feature air brake cylinders mounted centrally on the underframe. I couldn't tell you if they are mean to have air tanks as well but it as someone else said here or in the Hornby thread (sorry cant remember who), it appears Hornby have gone off Stroudley drawings when designing these coaches for the bulk of the work.

Edited by Pre Grouping fan
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21 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

You mean LBSC?

The LBSC coaches (and probably all others) feature air brake cylinders mounted centrally on the underframe. I couldn't tell you if they are mean to have air tanks as well but it as someone else said here or in the Hornby thread (sorry cant remember who), it appears Hornby have gone off Stroudley drawings when designing these coaches for the bulk of the work.

Sorry yes it is a LBSC but the lack of gas tanks for example highlights the lack of underframe trusses etc

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1 hour ago, Butler Henderson said:

Sorry yes it is a LBSC but the lack of gas tanks for example highlights the lack of underframe trusses etc

 

But I wouldn't expect any trussing on 19th-century 4 and 6-wheeled carriages. Where trussing is present on preserved examples, that's because they're mounted on much more modern steel underframes. From the images in the OP of the Hornby topic, Hornby have gas lighting for their NBR, GNR, and GWR liveries, all with gas tanks; electric for BR and SR, with battery boxes; and oil lighting for LNWR, LBSCR, and LSWR, all with appropriately bare underframes. The LNER livery version is an oddity, with oil laps and gas tanks; I've not checked if that's carried through to the production models. Hattons only have oil lighting for the GWR livery in the first batch:

 

In the third-class seat sat the journeying boy,
And the roof-lamp's oily flame
Played down on his listless form and face,
Bewrapt past knowing to what he was going,
Or whence he came.

 

In the band of his hat the journeying boy
Had a ticket stuck; and a string
Around his neck bore the key of his box,
That twinkled gleams of the lamp's sad beams
Like a living thing.

What past can be yours, O journeying boy
Towards a world uknown,
Who calmly, as if incurious quite
On all at stake, can undertake
This plunge alone?

Knows your soul a sphere, O journeying boy,
Our rude realms far above,
Whence with spacious vision you mark and mete
This region of sin that you find you in,
But are not of?

 

Midnight on the Great Western, Thomas Hardy

(published 1898 but possibly dating as far back as the 1860s)

 

 

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19 hours ago, truffy said:

 

What? No F for management? Presumably they..

Some South Wales miner's trains had 'clean' compartments for office and surface workers.  There were workmen's trains for other purposes, though, and at Tondu these were centred on the ROF factory at Tremains, on the SWML just east of Bridgend.  This opened in 1938 and expanded rapidly in response to German foreign policy of the period, and attracted traffic from the Tondu valleys, Llantriasant, and the Port Talbot area.  These trains used normal service stock and worked to diagrams that included public timetable revenue trains at other times of the day.  By 1960 the only one left was an Abergwynfi-Tremains, a Tondu working, the factory site having developed as the Tremains trading estate which is still very much in business.  It used to be railway connected, the track still in situ in the 70s, but I don't think it was in use at that time. 

 

Tondu apparently had a 1854 pannier with a spark arrestor chimney for shunting it as an ordnance factory, and it had it's own locos as well at that time.  There were 2 1854s at the shed in 1948, but the records are contradictory about their numbers, and I don't know whether one or both had spark arrestors.  No photo in the John Hodges/Stuart Davies books shows an 1854 with such a chimney, but it would be a nice feature.  I have a Wills 1854, a kind donation from Philou of this parish, which I intend to build a new Southestern chassis for.  It will represnt the last one at the shed, which went in late 1950, which is stated in RailUK as being 1740 and as 1870 in Hodges/Davies. 

 

Drifting :offtopic: a bit...

 

Edited by The Johnster
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12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

 

Does the coupler mount on these coaches just swivel, or is it a proper CCU that "grows" as it turns?

 

John

It’s a fixed point on the EP’s.
img_1589.jpg

The coaches run very well in their EP guise, so I see no reason/requirement why they would change the design. 
 

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15 hours ago, PMP said:

It’s a fixed point on the EP’s.
img_1589.jpg

The coaches run very well in their EP guise, so I see no reason/requirement why they would change the design. 
 

Thanks, I've got some left-over Keen Systems "2-pin" links that look like they'll do nicely for mine when the time comes. If they turn out to be too short, Hornby's Roco-a-likes should do the trick.  

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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The Johnster gets confused easily and it's getting worse.  Is this the Hatton's thread or the Hornby one...

 

But I'm starting to get a bit of a handle on these 4/6 wheelers from each producer now,  To summarize, as much to put my thoughts into print and so order them properly as to entertain you lot, the intention is to represent the Glyncorrwg Miner's as running in hte early 50s, photos in the Hodges/Stuart Tondu Valleys books.  Loco/BT/T/BT/T, all 4 wheel Deans l(oco runs around and propels from Glyncorrwg to North Rhondda), to be capable of smooth running on no,3 curves even propelling, which cannot be done with Ratio kits.  The BTs faced van ends away from each other btw.  Trailing Third is different profile to the other 3.  Livery, BR crimson with a top coat of coal dust.  Plan was to use renumbered Hattons Genesis BTs, and a Hornby Third for the odd man out coach.

 

But this won't work as I now realise; both Hattons' and Hornby's 4 wheel BTs have the LBSC type of guard's ducket and end windows, which while being attractive and a not uncommon setup, is not at all the thing for a Glyccorrwg Miner's. 

 

New plan, 1) BTs to be Hattons 6 wheelers with the middle axle removed, running with a Hattons 5-compartment 3rd between them and a Hornby 5 compartment 3rd trailing.

 

New plan 2} BTs to be Hattons 4 wheel chassis to match the intervening 5 compartment 3rd, retaining Hattons interior, but with Ratio BT bodyshell. 

 

Bit of research to be done to establish that a Ratio BT bodyshell will fit to either a Hattons 4 or 6 wheel underframe, but I think I'm getting my head around this now.  Of course, Cwmdimbath isnt't Glycorrwg and I do not have to model that exact train exactly, but a 4 wheel BT with the ducket in the side position not the end is essential to my intention to represent Dean 4 wheelers on an early 1950s miner's workman's in South Wales.

 

Next move; establish  lengths of Hattons' 4 wheel and 6 wheel genesis chassis, and length of Ratio/Parkside Dean BT.  Then establish length of Hornby 4 and 6 wheel chassis to see if my existing Ratio third, many years old but nowt wrong with it apart from being a Ratio all third, can be used for the odd man out coach.  I'm fettling panniers today, so not yet, but that;s the next move on the miner's workman's project.

 

 

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On 24/01/2021 at 13:48, The Johnster said:

The Johnster gets confused easily and it's getting worse.  Is this the Hatton's thread or the Hornby one...

 

But I'm starting to get a bit of a handle on these 4/6 wheelers from each producer now,  To summarize, as much to put my thoughts into print and so order them properly as to entertain you lot, the intention is to represent the Glyncorrwg Miner's as running in hte early 50s, photos in the Hodges/Stuart Tondu Valleys books.  Loco/BT/T/BT/T, all 4 wheel Deans l(oco runs around and propels from Glyncorrwg to North Rhondda), to be capable of smooth running on no,3 curves even propelling, which cannot be done with Ratio kits.  The BTs faced van ends away from each other btw.  Trailing Third is different profile to the other 3.  Livery, BR crimson with a top coat of coal dust.  Plan was to use renumbered Hattons Genesis BTs, and a Hornby Third for the odd man out coach.

 

But this won't work as I now realise; both Hattons' and Hornby's 4 wheel BTs have the LBSC type of guard's ducket and end windows, which while being attractive and a not uncommon setup, is not at all the thing for a Glyccorrwg Miner's. 

 

New plan, 1) BTs to be Hattons 6 wheelers with the middle axle removed, running with a Hattons 5-compartment 3rd between them and a Hornby 5 compartment 3rd trailing.

 

New plan 2} BTs to be Hattons 4 wheel chassis to match the intervening 5 compartment 3rd, retaining Hattons interior, but with Ratio BT bodyshell. 

 

Bit of research to be done to establish that a Ratio BT bodyshell will fit to either a Hattons 4 or 6 wheel underframe, but I think I'm getting my head around this now.  Of course, Cwmdimbath isnt't Glycorrwg and I do not have to model that exact train exactly, but a 4 wheel BT with the ducket in the side position not the end is essential to my intention to represent Dean 4 wheelers on an early 1950s miner's workman's in South Wales.

 

Next move; establish  lengths of Hattons' 4 wheel and 6 wheel genesis chassis, and length of Ratio/Parkside Dean BT.  Then establish length of Hornby 4 and 6 wheel chassis to see if my existing Ratio third, many years old but nowt wrong with it apart from being a Ratio all third, can be used for the odd man out coach.  I'm fettling panniers today, so not yet, but that;s the next move on the miner's workman's project.

 

 

 

It would seem that the common element here would be a Hattons 5 compartment third. Buy that, and you have a physical example to check against ... .

 

The question arises whether a single Ratio third could be accommodated in the rake , with play on the couplings being accommodated by the the swivel mount of the adjacent vehicles.

 

Also Parkside do   NEM mountings but you will need to source the actual NEM pocket with the dovetail to fit in the mitre slot on the pocket.  However Bachmann seem to supply these pockets on the couplings in their packs Bachmann straight tension-locks with NEM pocket  . Retrofitting NEM swivel mounts to an existing Ratio coach might prove a cheaper route for 1 vehicle than buying a whole Hattons/Hornby coach in order to discard the body, even if the latter could credibly be "grounded" somewhere

 

If it doesn't work - you unplug the coupling for use elsewhere, and your total loss is 1 pair plastic mounting blocks

Edited by Ravenser
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Not sure if this is the right forum for this but this carriage is LSWR , photo taken in Wickham , Hampshire in 1908.

Ineed help in identifying it and does anybody know if there would be a suitable Hattons or Hornby carriage that would be close ?

BD6438C2-479A-4B2E-A058-92DE959233F4.png

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2 minutes ago, mvrnut said:

Not sure if this is the right forum for this but this carriage is LSWR , photo taken in Wickham , Hampshire in 1908.

Ineed help in identifying it and does anybody know if there would be a suitable Hattons or Hornby carriage that would be close ?

 

 

It's a fruit van - there isn't anything in either range very closely corresponding to such. The carriage to the left is a LNWR vehicle, probably a 6-wheel 5-compartment third, a number of which were converted for seasonal fruit traffic. Compare this photo taken at Botley.

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8 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Roxey does a 48' bogie version, and Mallard did a 24' 4-wheeler.

 

The Roxey 48 ft vehicle is a fruit & parcels full brake. They do do a 6-wheel fruit & milk van under the Southwark Bridge label, in both 4 mm and 7 mm scales. 

 

8 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

I seem to recall Parkside making a kit of the LSWR van.

 

I don't think Parkside have ever made kits for LSWR NPCS - the nearest approach would be their Southern 4-wheel utility van. Are you thinking of Cambrian's LSWR van? That's goods stock, so not suitable for soft fruit, which really needed passenger-rated stock in order to run to passenger timings.

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13 hours ago, mvrnut said:

Not sure if this is the right forum for this but this carriage is LSWR , photo taken in Wickham , Hampshire in 1908.

Ineed help in identifying it and does anybody know if there would be a suitable Hattons or Hornby carriage that would be close ?

BD6438C2-479A-4B2E-A058-92DE959233F4.png

 

It looks like an LSWR D636 24' Luggage Van (drawing Weddel Volume 3, P13)

 

It looks like Blacksmiths did a kit, if you can find one: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/blacksmith-models-lswr-24ft-wheel-277055886

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On 01/02/2021 at 14:04, Ravenser said:

 

It would seem that the common element here would be a Hattons 5 compartment third. Buy that, and you have a physical example to check against ... .

 

The question arises whether a single Ratio third could be accommodated in the rake , with play on the couplings being accommodated by the the swivel mount of the adjacent vehicles.

 

Also Parkside do   NEM mountings but you will need to source the actual NEM pocket with the dovetail to fit in the mitre slot on the pocket.  However Bachmann seem to supply these pockets on the couplings in their packs Bachmann straight tension-locks with NEM pocket  . Retrofitting NEM swivel mounts to an existing Ratio coach might prove a cheaper route for 1 vehicle than buying a whole Hattons/Hornby coach in order to discard the body, even if the latter could credibly be "grounded" somewhere

 

If it doesn't work - you unplug the coupling for use elsewhere, and your total loss is 1 pair plastic mounting blocks

I am a veteran user of Parkside PA34 mounting blocks, an excellent and versatile resource that can be packed or trimmed to achieve the correct height and positioned to get the correct distance from the buffer beam.  The potential weak point in my proposed scheme is the visual matching the Hattons and Ratio/Parkside vehicles, but I have a 5 compartment Ratio all third in the 'might come in handy one day' box so this will not be an issue so long as I can get the eaves and roof profile to match.  The real 4th coach, another 5 compartment all third, is slightly lower at the eaves and has a slightly different roof profile, not to mention what looks like Hornby type planked ends, so if the Hornby coach exactly matches the Hattons or Ratio/Parksides in regard to eave leval and roof profile, I'm stuffed.

 

I will buy a Hattons 5 compartment 4 wheeler when they come out, and see what can or can't be done.

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Re Underframe Trussing

Some 4 wheelers were built with trussing, generally later (hence longer) vehicles but yes the majority did not have it.   Some late build 4 wheelers also had steel underframes and these normally had trussing.

What was common however was trussing being fitted when a 6 wheeler was converted to a 4 wheeler, an example being the many LCDR vehicles which were converted for suburban use around 1919.

 

Pete

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11 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

I've never eaten one.....

 

Reminds me of the story of the soccer player who, when asked if he preferred grass or AstroTurf, replied that he didn’t know because he’d never smoked AstroTurf. 

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