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Northern rail could be nationalised


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4 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Well, easy solution to that. Pay the same wages as others and make sure that your working conditions are as good or better than the others. Privatisation is supposed to be about the power of "the market" to deliver and that means the economics of supply and demand. What is he complaining about?

 

Just watched a decent Sky News report on HS2. Showed how the figures are being misused by many. The new higher figure being bandied around is for the whole project. But people have been comparing that against the original estimate - which was only the London - Birmingham/Trent Valley section. It's apples and oranges.

 

The report also featured various Northern MPs who would rather spend the money elsewhere. But, HS2 stage 2, particularly where Manchester is concerned, will free up a lot of timetable paths and enable a big improvement in the commuter service into Manchester from Cheshire. Not until 2036 though!

I understood he was complaining about his unprofitable franchise effectively subsidising the big juicy ones by training their drivers for them.

 

The lucrative franchises get trained drivers they just have to put through conversion courses for their traction and the passengers on Northern lose out all round.

 

Mind you, it's no different to British industry in general bleating on about the need to "recruit skilled labour" from abroad - subtext "so we don't have to waste money on training British kids for the well-paid jobs".

 

John

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2 minutes ago, PaulCheffus said:

Hi

 

Well this thicky has a BSc in Computing and an MSc in Computer Science.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

This one has a mix of O and CSE's as they only put you in for the O's if they thought you would pass!

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21 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

In that you stated NR were responsible for the vast majority of delays. 52% is not a "vast majority", unless I am missing something??

 

You are missing something, even though you highlighted in bold this sentence !

 

Given that by far the majority of external delays are Network Rail's this would also give a clearer picture of responsibility for poor performance.

 

The key word, which you did not quote above, being 'external'; What I was trying to say is that, IMHO, it would give a fairer, to both NR and the TOCs, picture of delay causation if incidents beyond their control, as per the examples I mentioned, were separately indicated.

 

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

 

 

Thanks, Now I know what that line is like.

I've been past the entrance sign several times when on the way to or from somewhere.

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59 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I understood he was complaining about his unprofitable franchise effectively subsidising the big juicy ones by training their drivers for them.

 

The lucrative franchises get trained drivers they just have to put through conversion courses for their traction and the passengers on Northern lose out all round.

 

Mind you, it's no different to British industry in general bleating on about the need to "recruit skilled labour" from abroad - subtext "so we don't have to waste money on training British kids for the well-paid jobs".

 

John

 

Exactly. Most companies in this situation would have a system in place to charge back training costs to someone who does not stay in the job long enough.

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3 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

You are missing something, even though you highlighted in bold this sentence !

 

Given that by far the majority of external delays are Network Rail's this would also give a clearer picture of responsibility for poor performance.

 

The key word, which you did not quote above, being 'external'; What I was trying to say is that, IMHO, it would give a fairer, to both NR and the TOCs, picture of delay causation if incidents beyond their control, as per the examples I mentioned, were separately indicated.

 

 

 

 

 

I stand corrected!! You are absolutely right. My apologies.

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On 29/01/2020 at 20:47, Butler Henderson said:

Reporter on 5Live this evening noted a packed standing room only service to ....

 

Perhaps the reporter should wander around a few of the ex-SR London terminii or the London Underground at 1700 on a weekday afternoon.  They'd see a succession of crush loaded services.  Only been like that for decades though so it doesn't count.

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15 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

Perhaps the reporter should wander around a few of the ex-SR London terminii or the London Underground at 1700 on a weekday afternoon.  They'd see a succession of crush loaded services.  Only been like that for decades though so it doesn't count.

But we Northerners smell so being crushed into a train is worse for us.

 

which reminds me, must get the tin bath off the neighbors, it’s our annual bath week.

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3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

But we Northerners smell so being crushed into a train is worse for us.

 

which reminds me, must get the tin bath off the neighbors, it’s our annual bath week.

 

Once a year whether it's needed or not! 

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4 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

Perhaps the reporter should wander around a few of the ex-SR London terminii or the London Underground at 1700 on a weekday afternoon.  They'd see a succession of crush loaded services.  Only been like that for decades though so it doesn't count.

 

On the BBC Breakfast report the other morning one passenger complained that all the money was spent in 'that there London'; Obviously unaware of how busy London commuter trains are (and not necessarily just at peak times only).

 

The BBC Breakfast reporter travelled on what I believe was a morning peak service from Sheffield to Manchester, and unintentionally demonstrated the problem of catering for peaks; The train was actually reasonably loaded, with a seat for everyone, for a fair part of the journey. Only from New Mills onward was it crowded, with passengers standing. To no surprise whatsoever the BBC did not ask the hard questions; How to justify spending money on additional trains, and/or staff, which will only make one revenue-earning journey each way, five days out of seven; Who pays for that ? Should fares be increased so that everyone can be guaranteed, or at least have a reasonable expectation, of getting a seat ? Or should taxes be increased instead, whether or not the taxpayer ever actually uses the train ?

 

We will have to wait and see what real difference nationalisation, or rather perhaps temporary de-privatisation, will make.

 

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On 30/01/2020 at 17:16, Mark Saunders said:

 

This one has a mix of O and CSE's as they only put you in for the O's if they thought you would pass!

 

Yup.  I got similar mix which was pretty worthless, but 42 years in the railway industry come July hasn't done me so bad.  just a pity today's kids in a similar educational doldrum will be disadvantaged compared to the Annual university post grads.   

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On 30/01/2020 at 10:44, Legend said:

I know there have been issues with driver training which is Northerns responsibility ,

Please explain how its Northerns fault that the new trains were delivered late  so Northern couldnt train any drivers, then once deliveries started they were basically flooded with new trains but couldnt release enough drivers or instructors to play catch up?

 

They can only release a few drivers at a time to train so once the program got behind it stayed behind which was the main cause for services operated by the new trains being cancelled due to lack of available driver, which means there was a driver but he/she hadnt been able to be released to learn the new trains yet!

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9 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

High quality passenger envrironment on a York-Harrogate-Leeds service this pm

https://t.co/hRVxpywbpY

 

 

It would have been much better to take the train out of service so it could be fixed wouldnt it, oh that means ALL the services that train worked that day would have been cancelled!

 

I do agree its bloody disgusting but running the train in that condition is probably the least 'wrong' option!

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On 30/01/2020 at 17:53, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Exactly. Most companies in this situation would have a system in place to charge back training costs to someone who does not stay in the job long enough.

Which several bus companies tried until it was pointed out it was illegal to charge somebody for 'free' training.

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2 hours ago, royaloak said:

Which several bus companies tried until it was pointed out it was illegal to charge somebody for 'free' training.

The issue there is not charging for it, it is selling it as "free". Having a chargeback is certainly commonplace in professions such as surveying. 

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The shortage is Drivers  or Trainee Drivers in the industry is such that "Payback " clauses  are being rejected by candidates,  one desperate company was offering full   salary to trainees  to the annoyance of qualified drivers

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8 minutes ago, Pandora said:

The shortage is Drivers  or Trainee Drivers in the industry is such that "Payback " clauses  are being rejected by candidates,  one desperate company was offering full   salary to trainees  to the annoyance of qualified drivers

 

That does not entirely surprise me. But it is the only likely way to retain staff.

 

What sort of salary are we talking about these days? Last I heard, the salaries were very attractive and one would not expect so much difficulty in recruitment. Of course, the shift working is a bit of a nightmare.

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1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

That does not entirely surprise me. But it is the only likely way to retain staff.

 

What sort of salary are we talking about these days? Last I heard, the salaries were very attractive and one would not expect so much difficulty in recruitment. Of course, the shift working is a bit of a nightmare.

They are very good..and they make me wonder why, as a professional engineer I didn't jack in years ago to train up...

I know someone who was "demoted" in his TOC as his jon was redundant. Ended up far better off and less stressed in his driver role.

 

No one has mentioned the antics of the RMT in delaying driver training..and egging people on to train up and play chase the gold. Of course we will have to foot the bill when RMT demand big pay rises. 

Baz 

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19 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

On the BBC Breakfast report the other morning one passenger complained that all the money was spent in 'that there London'; Obviously unaware of how busy London commuter trains are (and not necessarily just at peak times only).

 

The BBC Breakfast reporter travelled on what I believe was a morning peak service from Sheffield to Manchester, and unintentionally demonstrated the problem of catering for peaks; The train was actually reasonably loaded, with a seat for everyone, for a fair part of the journey. Only from New Mills onward was it crowded, with passengers standing. To no surprise whatsoever the BBC did not ask the hard questions; How to justify spending money on additional trains, and/or staff, which will only make one revenue-earning journey each way, five days out of seven; Who pays for that ? Should fares be increased so that everyone can be guaranteed, or at least have a reasonable expectation, of getting a seat ? Or should taxes be increased instead, whether or not the taxpayer ever actually uses the train ?

 

We will have to wait and see what real difference nationalisation, or rather perhaps temporary de-privatisation, will make.

 

To be fair, those crammed into elderly 2/3 car units on Northern commuter routes are regularly exposed to news reports of trains in the south east being increased to 10-12 coaches and huge sums being spent on extending platforms to accommodate them.

 

However necessary that may actually be, it's not hard to understand how an "us and them" attitude arises. 

 

There's nothing inherently wrong with increasing London commuting capacity, other than (IMHO) it only stimulates further demand that can, in all honesty, never be satisfied. The long-term solution is to reduce commuting in general, by encouraging people to work more without going into the office and, yes, moving jobs that don't need to be based in London elsewhere.

 

The real and justified gripe most commuters outside the south east have, is the long-standing pattern of investing in London infrastructure largely to the exclusion of the regions. 

 

John

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1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

To be fair, those crammed into elderly 2/3 car units on Northern commuter routes are regularly exposed to news reports of trains in the south east being increased to 10-12 coaches and huge sums being spent on extending platforms to accommodate them.

 

However necessary that may actually be, it's not hard to understand how an "us and them" attitude arises. 

 

There's nothing inherently wrong with increasing London commuting capacity, other than (IMHO) it only stimulates further demand that can, in all honesty, never be satisfied. The long-term solution is to reduce commuting in general, by encouraging people to work more without going into the office and, yes, moving jobs that don't need to be based in London elsewhere.

 

The real and justified gripe most commuters outside the south east have, is the long-standing pattern of investing in London infrastructure largely to the exclusion of the regions. 

 

John

 

Yes but those 10-12 car trains in the south east have the same levels of PIXC in the peaks as the 2-3 car trains in the north so the reality of the journeys are no different and in many cases the distances involved are greater.  

 

I don't disagree that the Midlands and the North should have an ambitious upgrade project to move to say a universal 8 car railway but there is a growing (and disingenuous) narrative that implies peak hour train travel in the South East is some utopian experience vastly different from the Midlands and North.  I worked with people that regularly had to stand in the morning peak from places like Winchester, Swindon and Peterborough which is a substantially different proposition than Bolton, New Mills or Rochdale and they were paying substantially more for the privilege.

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7 hours ago, royaloak said:

It would have been much better to take the train out of service so it could be fixed wouldnt it, oh that means ALL the services that train worked that day would have been cancelled!

 

I do agree its bloody disgusting but running the train in that condition is probably the least 'wrong' option!

Comments below the twitter posting refer to it appearing to be days old rather than having occurred that day in which case some screening off of the entire seating bay ought to have been done along with a properly printed apology by Northern Fail as having to use the unit.  There is a slight irony in the tweet being from the MD of a bus company which, admittedly before his arrival, withdrew its York-Harrogate service, although on the grounds it was commercially unviable and which was proven when a low-cost operator equally gave up on it subsequently despite the buses being well occupied because of the appalling low payment by North Yorkshire County Council for ENCTS pass holders. Northern Fail consequently have a monopoly on that corridor in comparison to the Harrogate-Leeds corridor where the competition is cheaper along with well padded leather seats with bags of leg room, wifi, usb charging, top deck sun roof and a library. I can only imagine what someone who decided to use the train rather than the bus would have thought seeing that and no doubt what there next journey will be by.

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