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hayfield

Whitemetal kit stuck together with Polystyrene cement

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Well I thought I had seen it all before, I bought a Wills SR 02 loco body which had been built but had not been painted and had no chassis (I have a spare SEF etched chassis). There was 2 photos, both from the same side one showing additional parts in box. This is the description  Wills O2 white metal Kit Built Body With Details handrails etc To Add. Needs chassis. OO Gauge. Condition is Used. 

 

Well it arrived and on the outside looked like the photo, well on the inside it was covered in clear stiff glue. On further inspection the glue easily came off and I am assuming its either Polystyrene cement or balsa wood glue.

 

Well 15 mins later after careful use of a scalpel Most of the castings are like they were prior to being stuck together, the final couple of pieces were put over a seaming kettle and the parts easily came apart

 

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This is the remnants of the glue and as can be seen the casting is unscathed (as are the others). 2 steps need replacing (one snapped in half, the other has lost its locating peg). I have a spare SEF etched chassis (bought in error) and Dave Ellis no doubt will be able to supply a pair of steps. What looked like it may have turned out to be a nightmare has turned out to be £30 well spent, plus I can make it with the smaller bunker rather than the enlarged one.

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I have come across a lot of horribly built kits being sold second hand (wagons mostly).  I generally won't touch 'em, 10 to 1 the standard of build won't be up to mine even if they are runners.  I have said in the past that if you do buy a second hand built kit that you should be prepared to rebuild, as has happened here.  

 

John

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...And the damaged steps could be replaced in styrene,  glued on with two-part epoxy or whatever (NOT polystyrene solvent....).

 

auldreekie

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19 minutes ago, brossard said:

I have come across a lot of horribly built kits being sold second hand (wagons mostly).  I generally won't touch 'em, 10 to 1 the standard of build won't be up to mine even if they are runners.  I have said in the past that if you do buy a second hand built kit that you should be prepared to rebuild, as has happened here.  

 

John

 

The great thing about whitemetal is that it is quite easy to rebuild/repair damaged items. The worst ones to clean up I have found is those where an Evo Stik type glue has been used. Normally I keep away from basket case models, though I have found sometimes things are not quite as bad as they look,

 

Unless you enjoy taking time to undo what has gone on before keep to new items, or those which have not been started. This is an exceptional case in that no damage has been caused by the glue, it just flaked off, must be the quickest clean up in history

 

8 minutes ago, auldreekie said:

...And the damaged steps could be replaced in styrene,  glued on with two-part epoxy or whatever (NOT polystyrene solvent....).

 

auldreekie

 

I could with a little effort repair the steps, in this case being lazy I can buy new ones for a pound or so. I am a solder person using glue sparingly, in my case plastic steps are too fragile, other like yourself prefer a scratch building solution. Thanks for the suggestion 

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One other comment I would make is that the exception would be a model of a prototype that is extremely rare.  In that case it may be worth while dismantling and rebuilding.

 

Steps can be problematic.  I recently finished a JLTRT van that had whitemetal steps that looked fragile.  I duly attached them and sure enough, one broke off during handling.  I replaced them with brass strip that I drilled and soldered wire to.  These were inserted into the solebar, using cyano, with a satisfyingly strong joint.

 

I am a solder person too, certainly for the structural parts of the model.  For fiddly details, I often use cyano.

 

John

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John

 

I am sort of with you, but whilst a basic loco kits start from £90 ish then you can easily spend similar on Wheels, motor and gearbox. Being careful you can quite easily pay between £30 and £50 on a poorly built loco and spending a few extra hours dismantling and preparing the parts for reassembly could possibly save £100. Also if you get satisfaction both building and restoring its the way to go. If this is not what gives you enjoyment then stay well away

 

As you have said sometimes you are forced down this route with rare kits. And its can be quite a chore in rebuilding

 

I must admit this 02 has just literally fallen to bits, it looked a real mess inside, but the glue never really took hold of the metal and I have been left with a set of parts someone else has prepared for me. I do have examples of the opposite, where a lot of time and care is needed

 

As you say, solder all the main parts. for the small items a good quality cyano.  

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I've acquired many poorly built white metal kits over the years and rebuilt them. It's both enjoyable and a cheap way of adding to the motive power and rolling stock roster.

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3 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

The great thing about whitemetal is that it is quite easy to rebuild/repair damaged items. The worst ones to clean up I have found is those where an Evo Stik type glue has been used. Normally I keep away from basket case models, though I have found sometimes things are not quite as bad as they look,

 

Unless you enjoy taking time to undo what has gone on before keep to new items, or those which have not been started. This is an exceptional case in that no damage has been caused by the glue, it just flaked off, must be the quickest clean up in history

 

 

I could with a little effort repair the steps, in this case being lazy I can buy new ones for a pound or so. I am a solder person using glue sparingly, in my case plastic steps are too fragile, other like yourself prefer a scratch building solution. Thanks for the suggestion 

It's interesting that you mention Evo- stik as being difficult to clean up.

 

I bought a part built Millholme Merchant Navy on ebay a few weeks back, which I think had this adhesive. I boiled the assembly for about 15 minutes, and found the joints had softened and could be separated, the glue then peeling away from the white metal. However some of it did sick quite tenaciously, and particularly around more detailed parts of the casting, and so it did take a bit of effort to clean it off. I then washed and scrubed all the components with Cif in warm water. The brass chassis had the spacers and top hat bearings glued in as well, removing the bearings involved their destruction, but I did after some elbow grease end up with some clean brass parts. I've now part made the loco and have the basic body on a free running chassis - all soldered - just need a big motor and gearbox to progress to the final stages.

 

As you say, it can be a very satisfying exercise to rescue woebegone kits in this way, not to mention the saving in cash!

 

John.

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Restoring kit builds is the way to go with kits being so expensive, can get some really good bargains at shows. Never seen anything thats been built like this though, at least its easy to dismantle and rebuild. Worst I've had with a kit was the live and insulated wheels being put on the same side of the chassis making it short out the moment it touched the track, makes you wonder if these people ever run their models. 

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I have never found a white metal kit which has been glued together which has stayed together.  I always ruin mine by melting and soldering them together with a huge cheap soldering iron.   

The great thing about cast kits vis a vis 21st century RTR is that many of them they pull trains, OK the K's 14XX doesn't even stay on the track but my K's Dean Goods is happy on 10 coaches where the Oxford rail one barely hauls 3.    Its easier to detail the white metal than to increase the traction on the Oxford

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36 minutes ago, AlexHolt said:

Restoring kit builds is the way to go with kits being so expensive, can get some really good bargains at shows. Never seen anything thats been built like this though, at least its easy to dismantle and rebuild. Worst I've had with a kit was the live and insulated wheels being put on the same side of the chassis making it short out the moment it touched the track, makes you wonder if these people ever run their models. 

 

I think most of us have done this from time to time

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38 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

I have never found a white metal kit which has been glued together which has stayed together.  I always ruin mine by melting and soldering them together with a huge cheap soldering iron.   

The great thing about cast kits vis a vis 21st century RTR is that many of them they pull trains, OK the K's 14XX doesn't even stay on the track but my K's Dean Goods is happy on 10 coaches where the Oxford rail one barely hauls 3.    Its easier to detail the white metal than to increase the traction on the Oxford

 

 

David

 

I have built many whitemetal kits with a basic 25 watt Antex iron, I now have a temperature controlled 75 watt solder station and find advice of what temperature to set hard to come by.  Solder the big bits glue the smaller ones, you need to get in and out very quickly, you soon get used to how long to hold the iron to the joint

 

I cut my teeth on K's kits, now I get rid of the chassis, wheels, motor and gears. They run far better with decent wheels, motor and gear box, some chassis can be used

Edited by hayfield
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Not intending to teach anyone to suck eggs but...

 

I'm still learning white metal soldering but one thing I've carried over from electronics soldering and welding is it's not so much the power but the heat input into the work piece relative to it's size. A small iron used for a long period to try and get enough heat in to melt the solder can do more damage than a larger iron used for a few seconds.

 

The temperature the iron needs to be set to more relates to the work pieces ability to heat soak. Keep hold of those scrap chassis and use them as testers when setting a temperature!

 

That said I never could get on with electric irons and use gas so I could be talking cobblers when it comes to electric irons.

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On 05/12/2019 at 12:31, hayfield said:

 

Well it arrived and on the outside looked like the photo, well on the inside it was covered in clear stiff glue. On further inspection the glue easily came off and I am assuming its either Polystyrene cement or balsa wood glue.

 

 

 

One of the kit instructions I was looking at recently did recommend Balsa Cement.

 

 

Found it. An old version of the Wills Saint. Paraphrasing.

 

Adhesive.

 

It is possible to use the cellulose based types such as Balsa cement or Durofix or Bostik No1.

 

For a stronger job we recommend Epoxy Resin such as Araldite or Holts Cataloy.

 

Soldering is not recommended.

 

 

 

Jason

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Usually the easiest approach is to reduce a part-built kit back to a complete kit and start again.  I've done that quite a few times myself, never had one put together with polystyrene cement though.

I've had whitemetal thats been Evo-stuck;  it's easily dealt with by brushing white-spirit into the joins, it comes apart in a few minutes.  

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23 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Adhesive.

It is possible to use the cellulose based types such as Balsa cement or Durofix or Bostik No1.

For a stronger job we recommend Epoxy Resin such as Araldite or Holts Cataloy.

Soldering is not recommended.

 

I guess that's a disclaimer, they don't want you trying to get your money back from a kit you've melted!  

Edited by DLT
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On 05/12/2019 at 14:43, brossard said:

One other comment I would make is that the exception would be a model of a prototype that is extremely rare.  In that case it may be worth while dismantling and rebuilding.

 

Steps can be problematic.  I recently finished a JLTRT van that had whitemetal steps that looked fragile.  I duly attached them and sure enough, one broke off during handling.  I replaced them with brass strip that I drilled and soldered wire to.  These were inserted into the solebar, using cyano, with a satisfyingly strong joint.

 

I am a solder person too, certainly for the structural parts of the model.  For fiddly details, I often use cyano.

 

John

 

Hi John,

I've dealt with damaged whitemetal step problems by soldering an "L" shaped strip of brass vertically up the rear of the steps (long side) then the short side of the L can be soldered to the underside of the footplate.

Cheers, Dave.

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12 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

One of the kit instructions I was looking at recently did recommend Balsa Cement.

 

 

Found it. An old version of the Wills Saint. Paraphrasing.

 

Adhesive.

 

It is possible to use the cellulose based types such as Balsa cement or Durofix or Bostik No1.

 

For a stronger job we recommend Epoxy Resin such as Araldite or Holts Cataloy.

 

Soldering is not recommended.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Jason

 

Durofix or Bostik were a choice before quick setting  2 part epoxy became widely available, this must be a very early kit instructions before low melt solder and decent electric soldering irons entered the modellers tool kits

 

Its surprising that some glues are easy to degrade, whilst others hang on for ever. Watching the Repair Workshop the other night one old repair to a plate defeated all attempts by the professional to degrade it.

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Interesting comment about 2 part epoxy.

I started using this (Devcon?) many years ago for sticking things (not just kits).

But I found several years down the line the stuff had degraded and instead of being nice and firm was of a rubbery consistency, consequently losing it's adhesive properties and the joints failing.

 

Later ones seem to be much better.

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23 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Interesting comment about 2 part epoxy.

I started using this (Devcon?) many years ago for sticking things (not just kits).

But I found several years down the line the stuff had degraded and instead of being nice and firm was of a rubbery consistency, consequently losing it's adhesive properties and the joints failing.

 

Later ones seem to be much better.

 

I think you had to mix it more accurately and store it better than modern versions. I did find some mixes  to be better than others

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3 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Jason

 

Durofix or Bostik were a choice before quick setting  2 part epoxy became widely available, this must be a very early kit instructions before low melt solder and decent electric soldering irons entered the modellers tool kits

 

Its surprising that some glues are easy to degrade, whilst others hang on for ever. Watching the Repair Workshop the other night one old repair to a plate defeated all attempts by the professional to degrade it.

 

I remember, in one of his books, Iain Rice recounting his time as a lad working for Bob Wills at shows assembling WM kits.  Wills wouldn't allow him to use solder for fear of melted parts.

 

John

Edited by brossard

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7 hours ago, DLT said:

 

Hi John,

I've dealt with damaged whitemetal step problems by soldering an "L" shaped strip of brass vertically up the rear of the steps (long side) then the short side of the L can be soldered to the underside of the footplate.

Cheers, Dave.

 

I will solder large mass WM parts but steps are quite small so replacing the step with brass scrap is the way to go for me.  BTW, while Parkside 7mm kits are generally good, I have one major beef with their brake vans.  These kits come with ABS plastic hangers for the footsteps.  In every case I have had to replace the hangers with brass strip.  Even getting the parts off the sprue is fraught.  Slaters brake van vans, on the other hand, include lost wax brass step hangers, far better.  So many kit manufacturers have a tendency to specify unsuitable materials.

 

John

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John

 

I would certainly solder the steps to the footplate, and there is nothing to loose soldering 2 halves of a broken step. Just bought a temperature controlled soldering station, still getting used to it but will just turn the temperature down a bit. Usual method in and out very quickly, as you can always go back again for a second go. Wait too long and its a far bigger job.

 

As for Bob Wills I think things have moved along, soldering irons and solder are far more advanced, casting and the materials used have also got far better

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Agree with what you say.  I have used 300C for WM whereas I use 360C for brass etc.  I'm still leery of soldering really small parts.  Most of my wagon kits in 7mm are either plastic or brass.  Any WM parts that are not structural get fixed with cyano (Zap A Gap medium is my go to glue).  I did assemble an ABS WM open kit with cyano.  No way I could solder because there is no inside, everything visible.  I did pin the sides and ends to the styrene floor which I think makes a good solid joint - time will tell.

 

As for Wills, his prohibition of Rice using solder was for marketing reasons I'm sure.  Not very good for sales if kit parts devolve into melted blobs.  If he could show that his kits went together with just glue, he would not be inundated with requests for replacement melted parts.

 

John

Edited by brossard

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5 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Jason

 

Durofix or Bostik were a choice before quick setting  2 part epoxy became widely available, this must be a very early kit instructions before low melt solder and decent electric soldering irons entered the modellers tool kits

 

Its surprising that some glues are easy to degrade, whilst others hang on for ever. Watching the Repair Workshop the other night one old repair to a plate defeated all attempts by the professional to degrade it.

 

The kit itself is from 1971 according to the MREMAG database.

 

The instructions are one exploded diagram, a page of written instructions and a page telling you how to convert a Triang B12 chassis. Obviously I'll be using a proper etched chassis when I get around to it.

 

But there is also a booklet called "Building Finecast Locomotive Kits" which is the bit which tells you how to build and paint them. Price 1/-

 

 

 

Jason

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