Railmagic

[njee20]

Whilst It certainly appears that Railmagic may have some fundamental issues, I have to say DCC Concepts contributions here have been detrimental to my opinion of them! Stay out of competitor threads, shouting about them being “BS”. 

[Andymsa]

3 hours ago, Railmagic said:

Allow me to do some brainstorming with opinions from the public. I could design the system to handle bridging between the boosters for a short period of time (< 1 sec.). So if you absolutely want to do it the old way, it might be possible, depending on what you are going to answer to these questions:

 

1) Can you agree to never stop a loco in the bridging position, i.e. the bridging is less than 1 sec.?

2) How many locos are running per booster? Are more than 8 locos rare? Note I said running!

3) Would you be able to divide your boosters into two groups, such that the bridging always occurs between one booster from each group? This is important, so give it an extra thought.

 

PS: I have added a signature to my profile...

One aspect not mentioned is cost, looking at the railmagic website it appears you buy add ons for each function. Ie block detection, fiddle yard, automatic running ect ect. So the total cost for everything on a complex layout would be 670 dollars. The pricing structure is far to complex. Then your reliant on there software for the mimic panel as it does not work with other software solutions. so who are the target audience, I certainly don’t feel it’s someone with an established layout. I really don’t want to be a nay sayer but I’m afraid this is just reinventing the wheel and is comparing with established solutions already in a very niche market.

[NIK]

3 hours ago, Trofimow said:

One wonders how the magnetic sensing will cope with multi level layouts, helices and the like....

Hi,

 

I've looked at the RailMagic tracker module and it looks as though it might have a three axis magnetic sensor on board*. This might allow it to cope with multilevel layouts and helices.

Would have to make sure there was no 3D symmetry between one turn/level and another by careful placement of the magnets.

 

* there is a very small black square on the tracker module that matches the dimensions of a three axis magnetic sensor I found. The cost of that sensor is a fraction of the published price of the tracker so could be the device.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Railmagic]

1 hour ago, Andymsa said:

One aspect not mentioned is cost, looking at the railmagic website it appears you buy add ons for each function. Ie block detection, fiddle yard, automatic running ect ect. So the total cost for everything on a complex layout would be 670 dollars. The pricing structure is far to complex. Then your reliant on there software for the mimic panel as it does not work with other software solutions. so who are the target audience, I certainly don’t feel it’s someone with an established layout. I really don’t want to be a nay sayer but I’m afraid this is just reinventing the wheel and is comparing with established solutions already in a very niche market.

 

Yes, isn't 670 dollars cheap compared to $639/$930 for TrainController silver/gold alone excluding occupancy detectors?

 

We introduced a starter kit yesterday, so the pricing should be easier to understand now ($250 for UK including VAT and shipping).

 

If you are into math: price = ( $170 + $7 x LOCO + $85 x BOOSTER + FEATURES ) * 1.20 due to VAT

FEATURES is in the range $0 to $150 if you are the signalman and approximately $300 if you want "press one button and everything runs".

 

Also, all updates are forever free, so you save maybe another $50/year.

[WIMorrison]

And with iTrain Standard at only $250 that leaves $420 for detectors and you can get an awful lot of detectors for $420

 

[Andymsa]

13 minutes ago, Railmagic said:

 

Yes, isn't 670 dollars cheap compared to $639/$930 for TrainController silver/gold alone excluding occupancy detectors?

 

We introduced a starter kit yesterday, so the pricing should be easier to understand now ($250 for UK including VAT and shipping).

 

If you are into math: price = ( $170 + $7 x LOCO + $85 x BOOSTER + FEATURES ) * 1.20 due to VAT

FEATURES is in the range $0 to $150 if you are the signalman and approximately $300 if you want "press one button and everything runs".

 

Also, all updates are forever free, so you save maybe another $50/year.

 

a fundamental element that’s being overlooked that anyone who already has automation will have one of the software programs already, and will have some sort of occupancy system. So I can only conclude that things are directed to a new user to automation, as I previously stated automation is somewhat a niche aspect of the hobby.

[Railmagic]

50 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

 

a fundamental element that’s being overlooked that anyone who already has automation will have one of the software programs already, and will have some sort of occupancy system. So I can only conclude that things are directed to a new user to automation, as I previously stated automation is somewhat a niche aspect of the hobby.

 

You are absolutely right, we will never win-over someone already running computer control. Railmagic tries to help people getting some automation. The idea is that you control the signals and that the trains got virtual engine drivers able to slow down and brake at the signals/platforms, and run on mainlines with automatic block control. If you have a command station with a graphical interface, you can control the layout as a signalman from there. But you don't have to be the engine driver of +10 locomotives at the same time! The approach of Railmagic is completely different from the traditional "press-one-button-and-watch" idea.

 

JMRI is free and DIY-occupancy detectors are out there, but apparently 99% of the modellers have chosen not to follow that path. Price is not everything.

[Andymsa]

1 hour ago, Railmagic said:

 

You are absolutely right, we will never win-over someone already running computer control. Railmagic tries to help people getting some automation. The idea is that you control the signals and that the trains got virtual engine drivers able to slow down and brake at the signals/platforms, and run on mainlines with automatic block control. If you have a command station with a graphical interface, you can control the layout as a signalman from there. But you don't have to be the engine driver of +10 locomotives at the same time! The approach of Railmagic is completely different from the traditional "press-one-button-and-watch" idea.

 

JMRI is free and DIY-occupancy detectors are out there, but apparently 99% of the modellers have chosen not to follow that path. Price is not everything.

 

I don’t want to sound negative but the existing software is extremely flexible and the signalman approach can be done, as well as a timetabled approach, or even be a driver of a train in amongst computer controlled trains.  

[RFS]

Although I currently use Traincontroller, I thought I would look at what would be involved if I were a user wanting automation. What would Railmagic cost me? My layout has 76 blocks and 85 engines at the moment. I've recently replaced my Lenz DCC system with Roco Z21, and in the process replaced my occupancy detectors. Traincontroller requires only one occupancy detector per block (as I believe so does iTrain), and thus I purchased 6 Digikeijs 16-port DR4000s for the Z21 R-BUS which cost me €340 (about £300).

 

For Railmagic I would need (from the web price list) Trainiac (£82), User Licence (£53), 85 Trackers (£595), 192 magnets (£48), fully-featured software (12 packages - £477). Total cost £1255.  And this does not include any costs that may be incurred in having two boosters.

 

So it would be very expensive. Using occupancy detectors I could choose fully-featured iTrain for €360 instead of Traincontroller. Plus I would be relieved of the really major task of hard-wiring a second decoder (ie a tracker) into 85 locos, many of which I know will be very difficult, if not impossible. Wiring up 76 occupancy detectors would be relatively easy by contrast. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by RFS

[RobjUK]

Another thought - how would the system be affected by other magnets or electromagnets, anything from solenoid point motors to track-based decouplers to older locos that have "Magnadesion" ?

 

Using fixed magnets for navigation points implies there must be no variable magnetic fields in the same area?

[martin_wynne]

Does it work with stud-contact?

 

 

Martin.

[NIK]

Hi,

 

RailMagic say they will be offering a DCC Decoder with the tracker built in so that might address the space issue inside locos.

 

Perhaps if RailMagic is successful RailMagic's tracker technology might be licensed to other DCC Decoder manufacturers. Railcom technology is used by a number of DCC Decoder manufacturers so that might be a precedent.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Ron Ron Ron]

18 minutes ago, NIK said:

……Railcom technology is used by a number of DCC Decoder manufacturers so that might be a precedent.….

..but RailCom is an established part of the NMRA DCC standards, although as an optional feature.

There’s an open licence on RailCom.

 

(nb. But not on RailCom Plus).

Edited August 22, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[NIK]

1 minute ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

..but RailCom is an established part of the NMRA DCC standards, although as an optional feature.

There’s an open licence on RailCom.

 

(nb. But not on RailCom Plus).

Hi,

 

I think Railcom wasn't originally part of the NMRA DCC standard.

According to DCCWiki Railcom appears not to have been an open license in 2011 (when Lenz terminated Zimo's license for Railcom).

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Andymsa]

Just been reading the manual for railmagic, I notice it needs access to a router. My concern is security of the product? How much outside access does it require? Personally I’m not that keen on things that require router access, but what if you have a heavily used home network, what about the latency of the network and how quick things will respond.

[Ron Ron Ron]

29 minutes ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

I think Railcom wasn't originally part of the NMRA DCC standard.

According to DCCWiki Railcom appears not to have been an open license in 2011 (when Lenz terminated Zimo's license for Railcom).

 

Regards

 

Nick

Not originally (1990’s) , but it became a draft standard around 2008/09 ‘ish  (it was in NMRA recommended practice form before that)  and fully adopted by the NMRA in 2012.

The original licence expired, but it’s patented and now, like the rest of DCC,  a licence can be granted free of charge by the NMRA, in due consideration of the trade marks and keeping within the standards.

Note: A revised and updated NMRA RailCom standard is currently in draft form (standards sometimes get updated).

 

 

.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Nigelcliffe]

23 minutes ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

RailMagic say they will be offering a DCC Decoder with the tracker built in so that might address the space issue inside locos.

 

Perhaps if RailMagic is successful RailMagic's tracker technology might be licensed to other DCC Decoder manufacturers. Railcom technology is used by a number of DCC Decoder manufacturers so that might be a precedent.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

On the first point, that's "in the future".   I'll assume they can build good non-sound decoders.    But I think RailMagic will find it extremely difficult to match the range of sounds offered on DCC sound decoders from ESU and Zimo.  To match it requires cultivating a new set of sound project writers, or persuading owners of layouts to forgo the sound equipped loco options they've got used to in recent years. 
Not likely in my view, so the piggy-back decoder install remains, which in turn rules out simple installation.     

 

On the second, in principle maybe.   In practise not likely to happen, at least in any reasonable timeframe (decades).   See RailCom, which has zero cost, been around for twenty years.   

 

 

New product adoption in model railways is glacially slow, this is for a huge variety of reasons, but underlying it all is the time many model makers spread their model construction over.   Its often ten plus years for a layout to develop.   If I look at the models I've been involved with in recent years, all bar-one were at a significant stage of construction before the iPhone was launched.  

 

 

- Nigel

[Railmagic]

10 hours ago, RFS said:

Although I currently use Traincontroller, I thought I would look at what would be involved if I were a user wanting automation. What would Railmagic cost me? My layout has 76 blocks and 85 engines at the moment. I've recently replaced my Lenz DCC system with Roco Z21, and in the process replaced my occupancy detectors. Traincontroller requires only one occupancy detector per block (as I believe so does iTrain), and thus I purchased 6 Digikeijs 16-port DR4000s for the Z21 R-BUS which cost me €340 (about £300).

 

For Railmagic I would need (from the web price list) Trainiac (£82), User Licence (£53), 85 Trackers (£595), 192 magnets (£48), fully-featured software (12 packages - £477). Total cost £1255.  And this does not include any costs that may be incurred in having two boosters.

 

So it would be very expensive. Using occupancy detectors I could choose fully-featured iTrain for €360 instead of Traincontroller. Plus I would be relieved of the really major task of hard-wiring a second decoder (ie a tracker) into 85 locos, many of which I know will be very difficult, if not impossible. Wiring up 76 occupancy detectors would be relatively easy by contrast. 

 

Thanks RFS for sharing details about your setup. With more engines than blocks the price will favor computer control over Railmagic, but it also indicates that your layout is crowded. The tracker costs around 2-4% of the price of an engine.

 

Railmagic will eventually be able to do more than computer control system can do, so be careful when comparing one-to-one. But to sum-up all features is wrong. They overlap. It's of course my job to make that clear for customers. For example, if you buy the Routing Automation feature, you will not need many of the other ones. Most users would spend maximum £100 on features.

 

For someone just starting to collect model trains, Railmagic should be a better alternative. For someone with a working computer control, there will always be issues to point at. It is fully understandable. Humans will always defend what they know and resist the unknown. Didn't you for example forget to tell that you have to make the wheels of your wagons conductive? Some people have difficulties climbing underneath the layout whereas the trackers can be installed by friends/shops. Because the system approaches are so difference I don't think the battle between pros./cons. brings any clearness.

[WIMorrison]

9 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

Just been reading the manual for railmagic, I notice it needs access to a router. My concern is security of the product? How much outside access does it require? Personally I’m not that keen on things that require router access, but what if you have a heavily used home network, what about the latency of the network and how quick things will respond.

 

A router doesn't need access to the internet, it is just that is how most people use them. They are simply devices that move stuff around the network, you could use a layer 2 switch (commonly called an Ethernet hub) or a layer 3 switch (which is a router without connection to the internet)

[WIMorrison]

3 minutes ago, Railmagic said:

... Didn't you for example forget to tell that you have to make the wheels of your wagons conductive? ...

 

Why? Automation works perfectly well without this statement.

[Railmagic]

14 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

Just been reading the manual for railmagic, I notice it needs access to a router. My concern is security of the product? How much outside access does it require? Personally I’m not that keen on things that require router access, but what if you have a heavily used home network, what about the latency of the network and how quick things will respond.

 

Then have a router just for your model railway. It doesn't have to be online. The router is needed because you will use an app on your smartphone. How would you do that without a router? The DR5000 has a router build in, that doesn't seem to be a security threat.

 

[Railmagic]

8 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

Why? Automation works perfectly well without this statement.

 

Please make a full disclosure of missing features then. Someone just told that one detector per block was enough. Then I don't see how the computer knows whether the train has fully entered a new block and can clear the previous one. Could you enlighten me?

[Railmagic]

1 hour ago, martin_wynne said:

Does it work with stud-contact?

 

Martin.

 

My lack of native English might be an issue here, but do you mean stud-contacts as in Märklin M-tracks? Then it works. The base of M-tracks are not magnetic.

[WIMorrison]

6 minutes ago, Railmagic said:

 

Please make a full disclosure of missing features then. Someone just told that one detector per block was enough. Then I don't see how the computer knows whether the train has fully entered a new block and can clear the previous one. Could you enlighten me?

 

I don't propose to tell you how automation works, you are the person creating an 'alternative' to what the market uses today. It is your job to ensure that your product will match what is currently available, that it is financially attractive to buyers, and that there is sufficient support, manufacturer, supplier and peer, for early adopters of the product.

 

I would say however that you would be well advised to take heed of the information that you have been provided through this thread.

[RFS]

9 minutes ago, Railmagic said:

 

Please make a full disclosure of missing features then. Someone just told that one detector per block was enough. Then I don't see how the computer knows whether the train has fully entered a new block and can clear the previous one. Could you enlighten me?

 

Traincontroller has only needed one detector per block since version 5 from 2006. That became possible when decoders started to have accurate Back EMF. With Traincontroller you profile the speed of every engine, so TC is able to calculate how far the train travels based on the current speed step. There are brake and stop markers in every block, but these are simply offsets from the start of the block. So if a train has to stop in a block TC knows from the profile how to slow down the train and arrive accurately at the stop marker. Also, as it knows the train length it can also calculate when the train has cleared the previous block. (I do use resistor wheel sets on the last vehicle of every train, but this is only to protect against malfunctions, for example a coupling failure that causes the train to split in two.)

 

Here is an example of one of my engines - vertical axis is speed (miles per hour) and horizontal axis is DCC speed step.