Pubs re-opening

[rockershovel]

Much doom and gloom in the papers about pubs re-opening in July. 

 

I await matters with interest. Witherspoons are getting the column inches, apart from anything else their system is quite well suited to envisaged restrictions, revolving largely around table service and on-Line ordering and payment. They also envisage a one-way System “Where possible, each pub will have separate entrance and exit doors, with markings on the floor to guide any customers who become confused.” which seems to me, to be the point, rather...

 

It will be interesting to see what develops. I was never much impressed with some of the effects of the de-restriction of opening hours in the 90s, perhaps there might be some improvement? 

[Steamport Southport]

To be honest I'm out until it gets back to normal.

 

I don't particularly like the idea that you will have to sit in certain area just to have a drink. The whole point of pubs to me is standing at the bar and talking to people, watching bands or occasionally watching the football.

 

Funnily enough I've hardly drank anything since the lockdown and I'm someone who has spent virtually the last 35 years in pubs. I can wait.

 

 

 

Jason

[Hroth]

Thing is, pubs will need a precise date in time to order fresh beer from the breweries.  All the stuff they had in the cellars at Lockdown will be well past its sell by date.  Then there's the write off of all that beer, who's going to pay for it, how many pubs will go to the wall due to unsustainable losses?

 

Going by the amount of glass bottles going into recycling bins over the past weeks*, it seems that there's been a fair amount of drinking been going on anyway.

 

* They sneak out when it goes dark, but you can hear the crash of the glass going into the bins...

[Lee6700]

I'm with Steamport Southport on this.

I'll be waiting until things get back to normal.

I think most pubs will have a limitation on the number of customers they can admit, plus there will be no standing at the bar as well as enforcing the 2m social distancing rule.

Strangely enough, I've been teetotal the last nine weeks or so, but, am looking forward to some kind of normality returning. Whenever that is.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

... revolving largely around table service and on-Line ordering and payment. They also envisage a one-way System “Where possible, each pub will have separate entrance and exit doors, with markings on the floor to guide any customers who become confused.” which seems to me, to be the point, rather...

This works for the 'pub/restaurant', essentially sit down dining. With my 'serious' hat on, I rather feel that a breathalyser before entering - you come in sober - and then a second at the point when the staff estimate you are 'confused enough' to be approaching legal disqualification from driving. Driving and Distancing as equivalent skills. Went to the Dutch nursery at Bell Bar this morning, a regular haunt of ours, and it was very well organised for distancing. But frankly with most of the customers 70+, the skills to achieve distancing were markedly absent. Oh, and you can really only go there by driving...

 

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

...The whole point of pubs to me is standing at the bar and talking to people, watching bands or occasionally watching the football...

And I feel the position that Chris Whitty outlined to the amateur football coach on yesterday's no 10 briefing exactly fits this case. Precis: very sorry to say that unrestricted contact sport is not going to be possible until there is an effective  vaccine.

 

4 minutes ago, Lee6700 said:

...Strangely enough, I've been teetotal the last nine weeks or so, but, am looking forward to some kind of normality returning...

Other way for me! Knowing that a call to come out and see someone urgently is very unlikely, it's been a G&T or similar refreshment before dinner. Have to do the modelling during the day as the fingers are too discombulated after aperitif and vino...

[rockershovel]

I think there will be a massive collapse and consequent asset-stripping in the licensing trade. You can hear brewery accountants rubbing their hands at the thought of selling tied houses, and property developers salivating at the thought of building 16 or more “town houses” on the sites of closed pubs. 

 

That said, I’m not entirely convinced of this. A pub near me was abruptly closed about 18 months ago “for redevelopment” and the building still stands empty; looking at the asking price for the site, I’m not particularly surprised. 

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

3 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

 

Other way for me! Knowing that a call to come out and see someone urgently is very unlikely, it's been a G&T or similar refreshment before dinner.

 

Similar for me.

An evening out (Model Railway club, darts match) usually involves a drive home, so I won't drink a thing.

Now I am at home every evening, driving back is not a consideration.

[rockershovel]

My best guess is that the shift to pub/restaurants over the past fifteen years or so, will be greatly accelerated. A couple of my older cousins were in the pub trade, and both reckoned that the property inflation of the later 1990s made any pub dependent on “wet sales” a marginal venture, hence the drive to expensive alcopops and mixers sold to younger drinkers with no other commitments, and the successive inflation of the 2010s made a profitable food trade, essential. 

[petethemole]

I foresee a massive reduction in the number of pubs owned by pubcos, the companies that bought up most of the big breweries' tied estates.  Many of these have been struggling for years due to a combination of high rents, high initial costs for leases, the usual requirement for lessees to pay for repairs, and the tied supply arrangements where most or all stocks are supplied through one company nominated by the pubco at higher than general wholesale prices.  The pubcos are in effect property companies that will look to make the most they can out of each asset, so I reckon a lot of their pubs will be closed for redevelopment.   The remaining brewery tied estates won't be safe either; Greene King have announced the closure of one near here, which was quite busy (as opposed to "heaving" when it was a Marstons' Southern estate pub). 

[Gwiwer]

'spoons are advocating a 1m social distance once pubs reopen.  On the grounds - they claim - that by that time viral transmission will be in its later stages and in some areas probably lower than some other afflictions which are transmitted in closed confines.  Many 'spoons premises are also larger and airier than some pubs and with outdoor seating areas.  Indoors they propose spacing of tables and screening between them.  They state they already have a return-to-work plan for many of their furloughed staff.  

 

Whether they get 1m is certainly open to question though as they themselves also say this will allow many more pubs to reopen than if 2m were still enforced.  1m is a serving distance - 2m is not though anyone who shops will have been within 2m of at least one member of staff unless they manage to use self-checkout unassisted.  1m is becoming the reality in some parts of London almost by default - rightly or wrongly - as more people are about and it is commonly known that viral transmission in the Capital is now at a low level.

 

I would be happy to get back around a table with a beer or few but it would also depend upon the guidance on meeting friends.  I'm not one to drink alone in pubs and SWMBO doesn't enjoy them at the best of times so it's going to be when those of us who feel comfortable enough all agree that we are OK with things.  Hopefully in the near-ish future.  Because the trade as we know it will not weather a much longer shut-down and I suspect the Powers That Be are well aware of that.  

 

Currently the normal consumption at home has stayed the same; a glass of wine with dinner and the occasional beer.  It's also Pimms season for anyone who cares

[rockershovel]

1 minute ago, petethemole said:

I foresee a massive reduction in the number of pubs owned by pubcos, the companies that bought up most of the big breweries' tied estates.  Many of these have been struggling for years due to a combination of high rents, high initial costs for leases, the usual requirement for lessees to pay for repairs, and the tied supply arrangements where most or all stocks are supplied through one company nominated by the pubco at higher than general wholesale prices.  The pubcos are in effect property companies that will look to make the most they can out of each asset, so I reckon a lot of their pubs will be closed for redevelopment.   The remaining brewery tied estates won't be safe either; Greene King have announced the closure of one near here, which was quite busy (as opposed to "heaving" when it was a Marstons' Southern estate pub). 

 

Well, quite so. It has been obvious for a long while, that such practices were driving the pub trade into a steep decline; how many pubs have closed near YOU since about 2005? Both my cousins decided it was high time to sell up and get out, the last one in 2011. Neither building is now a pub. 

 

There are at least three former pubs converted to Tesco Express, around here. 

 

I rather suspect that 2m distancing will collapse in practice, from the sheer impossibility of it, long before the government stop crying about it. 

[The Lurker]

4 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

Well, quite so. It has been obvious for a long while, that such practices were driving the pub trade into a steep decline; how many pubs have closed near YOU since about 2005? Both my cousins decided it was high time to sell up and get out, the last one in 2011. Neither building is now a pub. 

 

There are at least three former pubs converted to Tesco Express, around here. 

 

I rather suspect that 2m distancing will collapse in practice, from the sheer impossibility of it, long before the government stop crying about it. 

Interestingly, in my vicinity (Sidcup) there are now more pubs than when I first moved here in 1999. One did close (not a great loss as a venue, it was the sort of place that went quiet when you walked in, and the one time we did the police had been called by half seven on a Friday night) but three have opened, one a chain type place and two micropubs, the nearest of which is doing takeaways.

[rockershovel]

Neither of the ‘Spoons in Peterborough was built as a pub; both are former shops (one a drapers, one a grocers) with long opening glass-panelled frontages. A lot of them are like that. Both are in town, open through the day doing a thriving trade in breakfast, lunch, afternoon and early evening “wet sales” and snacks and closed by 9pm. 

 

I quite like ‘Spoons, they are a useful thing to look for in my travels, but they aren’t really pubs in the traditional sense of the term, although No 2 Son acquired a comprehensive acquaintance with them in his student days. 

[The Lurker]

23 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

My best guess is that the shift to pub/restaurants over the past fifteen years or so, will be greatly accelerated. A couple of my older cousins were in the pub trade, and both reckoned that the property inflation of the later 1990s made any pub dependent on “wet sales” a marginal venture, hence the drive to expensive alcopops and mixers sold to younger drinkers with no other commitments, and the successive inflation of the 2010s made a profitable food trade, essential. 

When I worked in the accountancy world 20 years ago I had a lot of clients that were pub chains or restaurants. The former made more mark up on food, as you rightly point out - apparently Balls Brothers' biggest mark up is on a bowl of chips - but the latter made far more mark up on drink than they did food. I expect the middle ground - the gastropub made a killing on both!

[rockershovel]

Mention of micropubs reminds me of the Palmerston Arms, a small and decidedly “unpretentious” pub in Oundle Road which seems to have weathered all storms ... nothing modern about the Palmerston, just a good location with a Network of residential terraces right behind it. 

 

 

[rockershovel]

8 minutes ago, The Lurker said:

When I worked in the accountancy world 20 years ago I had a lot of clients that were pub chains or restaurants. The former made more mark up on food, as you rightly point out - apparently Balls Brothers' biggest mark up is on a bowl of chips - but the latter made far more mark up on drink than they did food. I expect the middle ground - the gastropub made a killing on both!

 

It isn’t just the mark-up, the unit of sale on meals is much higher too. £20-25 per head, £200 per table, per day from Friday to Sunday; you don’t get THAT from wet sales OR bar food, although bar food is worthwhile. 

[roundhouse]

We are drinking as much as when we could go to pubs but smaller quantities each day with maybe just one day a week dry. I much prefer to be drinking in pubs travelling by train so thats two things we cant do for the foreseable future. I also suspect that when pubs can reopen there will be queues to get in some places and the ale range may be very limited or non existant incase the pubs have to shut again. 

Luckily we do have a very good community run pub that is doing take out bottles and draught ales from local breweries. The landlady is thinking of opening up the beer garden (when Govt allows) with tables spaced 4M apart thus allowing people to move between them. It will be in 2 hour sessions with half hour in between for the staff to clean all the tables eats etc. It will be at table service and they do have one outside toilet in the large beer garden (one reason that it closed for possible redevelopment that got refused then reopened). You may be able to book a table next to friends so that you can be 2m apart but close enough to chat. It wont be the same as just turning up when you like for a pint or two but will be worth trying.

 

Yesterday and today (as my other half had two days leave  booked)  we visited a number of breweries that are open for either click and collect or turn up and purchase with various restrictions on people allowed inside. One, Rebellion brewery in Marlow has actually set up a drive thru where you order from you car  then move up under a gazeboo, release the boot and a group then load the beer into the boot, close it and then you drive off. However I did pull over and make sure it was properly secured (which it wasn't) as we had an hours drive home.

 

A lot of these smaller breweries that are opening up for collection of home delivery are doing well  from what they are telling me, with one today , Kissingate brewery even doing their own pasties to take out. So thats dinner for tonight sorted.

 

We now have a well stocked bar in the house and another under the canopy shed with excellent beers.

 

We are happy to support as many of these breweries as we can and they virtually always thank us for doing so. Its the only way they have a chance of surviving if people order directly from them.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by roundhouse

[Hroth]

Until then.....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5JdTmkfSaQ

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

4 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Much doom and gloom in the papers about pubs re-opening in July. 

 

I await matters with interest. Witherspoons are getting the column inches, apart from anything else their system is quite well suited to envisaged restrictions, revolving largely around table service and on-Line ordering and payment. They also envisage a one-way System “Where possible, each pub will have separate entrance and exit doors, with markings on the floor to guide any customers who become confused.” which seems to me, to be the point, rather...

 

It will be interesting to see what develops. I was never much impressed with some of the effects of the de-restriction of opening hours in the 90s, perhaps there might be some improvement? 

 

Not just in the public press. I get an update each morning from the trade press (Morning Advertiser) and, yes, much pessimism in the industry.

 

Current estimates are that 40% of pubs will never reopen. About 70% feel that it would not be worth opening in early July given all the uncertainties. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, petethemole said:

I foresee a massive reduction in the number of pubs owned by pubcos, the companies that bought up most of the big breweries' tied estates.  Many of these have been struggling for years due to a combination of high rents, high initial costs for leases, the usual requirement for lessees to pay for repairs, and the tied supply arrangements where most or all stocks are supplied through one company nominated by the pubco at higher than general wholesale prices.  The pubcos are in effect property companies that will look to make the most they can out of each asset, so I reckon a lot of their pubs will be closed for redevelopment.   The remaining brewery tied estates won't be safe either; Greene King have announced the closure of one near here, which was quite busy (as opposed to "heaving" when it was a Marstons' Southern estate pub). 

Greene King, as a brewer, have at least a bit more interest in looking after their tenants than a pure pubco. Announced this morning that they are giving a 90% rent rebate.

[The Johnster]

Good news; my Sunday regular is a Greene King.  

 

A way forward might be to adopt American/Canadian style bar rules, in which it is forbidden to walk or stand with an alcoholic drink in your hand.  You can sit on a barstool at the bar and be served by the barkeep, or sit at a table and be served by staff, but you can't go to the bar and buy a drink, then stand at the bar with it, walk off somewhere else with it, or take it to your table.  

 

In the shorter term, plastic screen individual 'booths' at the bar, and a stricter interpretation of how many are allowed in; practice at some city centre bars where I live is frankly dangerous.  Maybe a ban or restriction on made-on-the-spot cocktails,  which take ages and lead to bar crowding.

[Catkins]

I work for a company that delivers malted barley to Heineken in Manchester, and ABInBev just outside Preston, as long as people drink those two "beverages", we've got some work - and we deliver sand to some glass factories in Yorkshire, so as long as people buy bottled stuff, we've got work.

However, I miss going to my local cafe/bar for breakfast - and dinner, and I miss taking my mum out for a pub lunch. I would like to see the pubs reopen soon, as I know that the hospitality trade is suffering, but I am concerned that I might socialise before the virus has passed it's peak, and unwittingly catch the virus, and thence infect my mum.

 

I believe that it is a case of "Caught between a rock and a hard place".

[JohnDMJ]

 

On 22/05/2020 at 15:45, Hroth said:

All the stuff they had in the cellars at Lockdown will be well past its sell by date. 

 

Alcohol is a preservative. If stored correctly, the beer remaining from the start of the recent prohibition should still be OK for consumption.

 

Sell-by dates are an interesting anomaly generated by the supermarkets to ensure stock rotation and often have no relevance to the lifetime of the product. An obituary to the late Common Sense was recently published elsewhere on this forum.

[rockershovel]

6 hours ago, JohnDMJ said:

 

 

Alcohol is a preservative. If stored correctly, the beer remaining from the start of the recent prohibition should still be OK for consumption.

 

Sell-by dates are an interesting anomaly generated by the supermarkets to ensure stock rotation and often have no relevance to the lifetime of the product. An obituary to the late Common Sense was recently published elsewhere on this forum.

 

Pasteurised keg beers last pretty much forever; Watney Mann once retrieved a keg from the Thames, dropped over the dock some years before, and pronounced it quite drinkable, insofar as that could be said of ANYTHING brewed by Watneys.  

 

Most bottled beers do, too; “lager” MEANS “storage” and IPA means “India Pale Ale”, beer designed to be transported to the East by sailing ship. A quick look at the bottles in the recycling box, shows “best by” dates around next March.

 

Whether pubs will be permitted, or willing to sell beer long past its sell by date, is a different matter. Beer in barrels, especially “live” bitter brewed for hand-pump sales, might be a different matter. 

 

[monkeysarefun]

Pubs have reopened here for dining in, limit of 10 customers at a time makes it not really  viable for many of them so they stay shut, or only open for dinner.