More model ideas

[GordonC]

2 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

I think your right, but this is then driving the debate / thoughts towards just what is on the market and available now, that is acceptable and what needs to be upgraded in line with the advances in sound and DCC lighting controls. This then, I would surmise, would be dependant on just how good the model is overall in detail and performance compared to others on the market, as well as how popular any upgraded model would be to replace the model of the prototype being done now. 

Seen in those terms a lot of the Hornby detailed diesel models turn out well. The class 60 is a fine model, detailed, heavy, performs well and does have lighting and scope for sound fitting. Equally so the class 67 holds its own, as well as having most liveries done by Hornby. Would people really upgrade their class 67 to a new one? I suspect not. I am perhaps one of the few that also think the class 31 is fine for what it is. The detail is good and the lighting can be fixed. Equally so the HST has been okay and apart from the coupling the new power cars are good. Demand has shown that this is something that is still wanted and the new HST that should come with stock too is likely to be a cash cow for Hornby if they can match the standards of competition, or get close to it, and beat them to market. Livery choice will also make people choose which HST set they go for. Where Hornby are vulnerable will be some of the limby stock and railroad. But then your into price territory and some will go for these as they work out cheaper. The obvious target is the class 50, where the same parts and toolings done for other engines have been modelled meaning that parts for this are already done. Will this come from the same source? Probably is my answer. 

While that might be Hornby, Bachmann have been exposed as their previous range included a lot of the staple engines people needed models of. The class 66 and Deltic have soon been picked off, with the class 47 having been retooled to protect that one. The class 37 too has been given competition. There might be a means of Bachmann to get a 57 from their retooled 47 but I think that the latter is fine with the model that is done at present. It fills the gap. Bachmann have staked out the class 69 too as a land grab, but this could be some time away. Bachmann are in the position where they can not retool all their range and given how popular their range was for years its clear others see their choices of the past as their future. Hence Accurascale taking on 37 and 55... with Mk. 2 stock to match. 

Other ranges might see things such as the class 58 looked at, but again, for what is available this satisfies demand. The various shunters out there are also covered well. taking on the hydraulics such as Western, Warship and Hymek are all possible, but do they have the scope needed? The main gaps in the market will be and still is units. Second gen ones will be the driving force as they can cover sectorisation onwards and fill the voids in and around privitisation - the size of this area of the market is now significantly bigger than many realise. Bachmann have done the 158 and 150 (which is safe for now) with the 170 to follow (land grab no. 2). Realtrack the 156 with the 142 to follow. Hornby have the 153. Ones to go for in the future will be the class 185 and perhaps the 180. The Voyager 220/221 and 222 will also be very much a good move. Beating Bachmann to the 170 and thus doing the entire 168/170/171 and Electrostar family is also another option. 

Yet accurascale has shown vision and boldness as much as tenacity in taking on the established companies. Doing the class 92 was interesting but is getting positive replies. As are things like the Manor and Chaldrons - that now show that everything is possible. This then can see Accurascale move towards other items in the range, but its clear they are taking advantage of shared parts. Thus is the Stanier standardisation such as Black 5, 8F a target? Do Mk. 3's enter the range as whole fleet of stock that is urgently looking for a model that does all thats wanted in the end... 

Thus, I think the diesel market is getting choosy over its options and the future will be a case of how much detail and control you can put into a model vs price. Thus will some people keep their current models rather than replace their entire fleet. I think many will keep what they have and use new ones as the star performers. But if your looking for what comes next then it will either be a popular diesel that needs full spec, a second gen unit, or a steam model done to DCC the next generation including sound and lights. 
 

 

I'd throw the Class 175 in there as another good option for DMUs and I'd suggest better than the 180s for sure

 

Before re-tackling DMUs already been covered before, surely there must be a market for everyday AC EMUs, now that we're getting good quality AC locos they were always seen with local EMUs and that market has never been explored.

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

But a mid-motor loco-style mechanism is total overkill in a 2-car DMU, as I pointed out in my earlier post. You just don't need a chassis powerful enough to shift fifteen feet of freight wagons under a railcar.... 

 

I agree, other than does the mid motor setup help with keeping it low profile?

 

32 minutes ago, GordonC said:

I'd throw the Class 175 in there as another good option for DMUs and I'd suggest better than the 180s for sure

 

How exactly do you mean better than the 180s? I'd have thought the 180s would be an excellent choice as they have been in Western, ECML and North West and have had tonnes of liveries whilst doing it. I don't think the 175s have the same claim do they? They have had a few operators but ultimately have worked in the same area their entire life I think. The only thing going for it vs a 180 IMO is the 180 is 5 car, 175 is 2 or 3 car.

[Covkid]

4 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

How exactly do you mean better than the 180s? I'd have thought the 180s would be an excellent choice as they have been in Western, ECML and North West and have had tonnes of liveries whilst doing it. I don't think the 175s have the same claim do they? They have had a few operators but ultimately have worked in the same area their entire life I think. The only thing going for it vs a 180 IMO is the 180 is 5 car, 175 is 2 or 3 car.

 

Neither appeal to me but on liveries alone I imagine the 180 would have the edge over the 175. Balance that against the cost of producing a 5 car unit, with at least three different bodyshells assuming the buffet car has extra ventilation grilles etc. Assuming the basic bodyshells are the same in terms of window apertures etc I imagine the below solebar skirts could be individually fitted. 

 

The problem for me as a transition modeller who would much prefer green DMUs - would a class 180 be a more profitable choice than say a Swindon Cross country unit to Accurascale ?

[TomScrut]

15 minutes ago, Covkid said:

The problem for me as a transition modeller who would much prefer green DMUs - would a class 180 be a more profitable choice than say a Swindon Cross country unit to Accurascale ?

 

It is hard to say. I'd certainly want a 180 in GC livery but that's just a case of time and place isn't it?

[GordonC]

19 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

I agree, other than does the mid motor setup help with keeping it low profile?

 

 

How exactly do you mean better than the 180s? I'd have thought the 180s would be an excellent choice as they have been in Western, ECML and North West and have had tonnes of liveries whilst doing it. I don't think the 175s have the same claim do they? They have had a few operators but ultimately have worked in the same area their entire life I think. The only thing going for it vs a 180 IMO is the 180 is 5 car, 175 is 2 or 3 car.

 

Being 2/3 and 5 car is a small detail that makes a big difference.

 

While the 180 may have carried more liveries in a wider area, has it not been more of a bit-part player in terms of services operated in the area, on the WR and ECML, the HSTs will have provided the bulk of the services so if you're modelling the area, not having a 180 will be less noticeable. Being conservative you might be looking at £600 for a 5 car set and at least 3 body mouldings.

 

For the 175, it will have operated on an area bounded by Barrow-In-Furness, Windermere, Manchester, Crewe, Birmingham and Wales in general. Surprisingly, it looks like there's exactly the same number of vehicles built between 175 and 180, but obviously grouped in fewer units for the 180s. I've not looked in detail, but are there any differences between the Class 175 driving cars? I've not noticed any, so it may only need a single body tooling for the 2 car. The 175s will have been far more visible in the areas they operated in with nearly twice the number of sets compared to the 180s and I think a far easier sell being 2 or 3 car.

 

 

 

[Magstheviking]

14 minutes ago, Covkid said:

The problem for me as a transition modeller who would much prefer green DMUs - would a class 180 be a more profitable choice than say a Swindon Cross country unit to Accurascale ?

 

I think a Class 180 would sell pretty well in my view. The market is crying out for more modern DMU's/EMU's. 

There's so many gaps in the modern image market. As long as it compared favourable with recent Bachmann 158 or realtrack 156 offerings then I'd certainly be in. 

There's plenty of options out there for sure. 

[TomScrut]

4 minutes ago, GordonC said:

Being 2/3 and 5 car is a small detail that makes a big difference.

 

...sets compared to the 180s and I think a far easier sell being 2 or 3 car.

 

I do agree the 5 car part of it is a big deal, probably the biggest.

 

OTOH given the interest in one offs and rare prototypes I don't buy that the bit part activity on their routes as a reason the 180 wouldn't sell. Ultimately a 175 may be a more noticeable absence but the area it applies to is far smaller and so it is potentially a harder sell.

 

Maybe it would be a good one for Revolution or somebody to do, where people effectively put their money where their mouth is before any tooling is cut?

Edited January 4, 2022 by TomScrut

[dj_crisp]

Some interesting options being touted.

 

I'm hoping the full range of 37s are released as I do like the look of the Accurascale tooling and would like some 37/4 and 37/7s. After that most existing Diesel loco's are good enough for me and modern pricing is meaning I'm being very choosey.... which is no bad thing in a way as I have too many already! Still I'll be a sucker for some DMUs as many haven't been done and ones like the 155/153 are pretty rubbish by modern standards.  Plenty of wagons and coaches to pick off as well!

[KDG]

6 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Wot a '31' with all-wheel-drive ? .................. that's more wheels driven than the prototype woz ! 

Fair point, well presented. Got me there guv.

[wombatofludham]

I suspect that a Class 50 will be ahead of the Class 31 if Accurascale want to go toe to toe with Hornby.  Mechanically it could be easily worked up from the Deltic mechanicals and is a cult class with sales appeal.  I'd almost go as far as to say I will be surprised if the DON'T announce a 50 this year.


 

[TomScrut]

23 minutes ago, dj_crisp said:

Still I'll be a sucker for some DMUs as many haven't been done and ones like the 155/153 are pretty rubbish by modern standards.

 

In fairness the only awful Sprinter model is the 155. The 153 is OK but not great. 150 is good but dear for what you get IMO and 156 and 158 are very good.

 

I think in terms of DMUs either before or after Sprinters is probably where the holes are.

[Dogmatix]

19 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

Possibly.....

(Waits to incur the wrath of the SLW 24/25  fans.....)

 

Wrath incurred!! The SLW models ARE the best OO RTR diesels ever made! The running is excellent, the accuracy exemplary and.....(drum roll, please) they are fitted with working close-coupling kinetics!

 

I haven'r actually got an Accurascale locomotive yet, but I have 'pre-booked' a 37 and a Manor. I really don't need a 55, still less a 92, and I can't think of a good reason why an Irish 'A' Class would be running on BR tracks (with a gauge change, of course).

[thohurst]

6 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

I'd throw the Class 175 in there as another good option for DMUs and I'd suggest better than the 180s for sure

 

Before re-tackling DMUs already been covered before, surely there must be a market for everyday AC EMUs, now that we're getting good quality AC locos they were always seen with local EMUs and that market has never been explored.

 

I definitely see the desire for AC EMU's growing - it's the next logical step in the RTR market. Myself, along with many others on this topic and others have suggested various AC EMU's. Personally I'm holding high hopes that Accurascale produce a class 310, I think they're the only ones that could do it justice.

I know some would prefer lower spec, cheaper EMU's, but if accurascale produced a 310 or 304 with all the bells and whistles - Proper lights, multiple bogie drive, motorized pantograph, I'd buy one (or even more!) in a heartbeat!

[TomScrut]

16 minutes ago, thohurst said:

 

I definitely see the desire for AC EMU's growing - it's the next logical step in the RTR market. Myself, along with many others on this topic and others have suggested various AC EMU's. Personally I'm holding high hopes that Accurascale produce a class 310, I think they're the only ones that could do it justice.

I know some would prefer lower spec, cheaper EMU's, but if accurascale produced a 310 or 304 with all the bells and whistles - Proper lights, multiple bogie drive, motorized pantograph, I'd buy one (or even more!) in a heartbeat!

 

I think a 319 would be a good one so a 769 might be done at the same time. Appeals to a wide range of regions and covers DEMU and EMU at the same time.

[NXEA!]

Seeing how much positive reaction the team at Accurascale got for the Siphon G, how about a Thompson BZ? Really lovely prototype and well-travelled and they lasted into the late 70’s too. Gives you an opportunity to show how to do 6-wheelers! I would definitely have one, and I’m sure others would have a lot more than one. Or a Gresley D120 Pigeon Van, another lovely prototype. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by NXEA!

[wombatofludham]

2 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

I think a 319 would be a good one so a 769 might be done at the same time. Appeals to a wide range of regions and covers DEMU and EMU at the same time.

Whilst I can see the logic in a 319, I suspect the fact Bachmann have done one in the junior scale would make it more likely that they will give their Graham Farish model a dose of Miracle Grow and upscale it.  The other thing is, to cash in on the growth of the AC Electric loco market, you ideally want something that ran alongside them to strengthen your chance of sales - and Class 319 really only ran on the WCML post 1997.  If you want to capitalise on the sales of Classes 85-90 you really will be looking at Class 304 or 310 which would have run alongside 85s throughout their lives, 86s from 1965 through to the very late 1990s (certainly on Central Trains routes towards the end) and the early BR years of Class 90.  AC electric locos ran alongside Class 303 and 311 post 1974 but really 304 or 310 has the widest date ranges to complement the currently available range of AC locos.

[dj_crisp]

14 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

In fairness the only awful Sprinter model is the 155. The 153 is OK but not great. 150 is good but dear for what you get IMO and 156 and 158 are very good.

 

I think in terms of DMUs either before or after Sprinters is probably where the holes are.

 

I agree no need to do the 156/158 which are fine (I say wishing realtrack did an early 156 with correct lighting/clusters and no front roof pods). Also I agree there are loads of missing DMUs before and after the sprinters!

 

However Hornbys attempt on the 153 is on a par with Heljans original 33/0 but worse in my eyes. The roof is way too flat which messes up the front so it just looks plain wrong made worse by the corridor connectors. Off memory I think they used too large a wheelset too. That and a lack of correct lighting does it for me. I've not run mine for a long time but I seem to remember the powered bogie being good and at least there's an interior.

 

There are better locos that have been retooled and i think an opportunity to do both a 155/153 at the same time.

[Covkid]

12 hours ago, NXEA! said:

Seeing how much positive reaction the team at Accurascale got for the Siphon G, how about a Thompson BZ? Really lovely prototype and well-travelled and they lasted into the late 70’s too. Gives you an opportunity to show how to do 6-wheelers! I would definitely have one, and I’m sure others would have a lot more than one. Or a Gresley D120 Pigeon Van, another lovely prototype. 

Agree with that, then once the six wheeled chassis is developed there are the LMS six wheeled vans and the Palethorpes sausage vans, as well as the subtly different GWR pair. Then the LMS 42' GUV, 50' milk vans etc etc 

[Dunsignalling]

12 hours ago, NXEA! said:

Seeing how much positive reaction the team at Accurascale got for the Siphon G, how about a Thompson BZ? Really lovely prototype and well-travelled and they lasted into the late 70’s too. Gives you an opportunity to show how to do 6-wheelers! I would definitely have one, and I’m sure others would have a lot more than one. Or a Gresley D120 Pigeon Van, another lovely prototype. 

Neither being obvious candidates to be marketed in 3-packs, though.

 

John 

[NXEA!]

8 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Neither being obvious candidates to be marketed in 3-packs, though.

 

John 

Nope, but neither is the Siphon G! 

[Dunsignalling]

6 minutes ago, NXEA! said:

Nope, but neither is the Siphon G! 

Oh, I don't know.....

[autocoach]

How about breaking the Hornby monopoly on Southern light pacifics ... with one in 1945-47 condition and the original cab.

[Dunsignalling]

13 minutes ago, autocoach said:

How about breaking the Hornby monopoly on Southern light pacifics ... with one in 1945-47 condition and the original cab.

I have a funny feeling that may be one of the things Hornby has up their sleeve for Monday. If they are going to retool theirs, facilitating the early form is going to be inevitable.

 

After all, they've done some of their Air-smoothed MNs in early guise, despite the rapidity with which they were brought into line with newer classmates. Not yet 1947 condition, though, which has inspired a couple of rather nifty conversions by Mr Muspratt of this parish.

 

John

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[No Decorum]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I have a funny feeling that may be one of the things Hornby has up their sleeve for Monday. If they are going to retool theirs, facilitating the early form is going to be inevitable.

 

After all, they've done some of their Air-smoothed MNs in early guise, despite the rapidity with which they were brought into line with newer classmates. Not yet 1947 condition, though, which has inspired a couple of rather nifty conversions by Mr Muspratt of this parish.

 

John

 

 

It will be interesting to see if you’re right. However, if Accurascale were to do it, I’d expect a better arrangement for the trailing wheels.

[Dunsignalling]

31 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

It will be interesting to see if you’re right. However, if Accurascale were to do it, I’d expect a better arrangement for the trailing wheels.

Depends what you call better. Hornby's set-up on their Rebuilts is fine with flanged trailing wheels for static display and on curves of 36" radius and greater. With a bit of fettling, they'll go round 30".

 

The fixed trucks get rid of the unrealistic daylight around the moving ones on older models and allow for a correct ash-pan and the proper pipework to be incorporated.

 

 Pacifics arguably look daft on train-set curves whether the truck moves or not.

 

Mine have flanges and, if visiting someone's layout with tight corners, I just take them out. Hardly anyone ever notices their absence.

 

If Accurascale can make one that will go round No.2 radii with all wheels flanged and without compromising appearance and/or omitting details, bring it on.

 

It's not impossible, because I've modified a swinging truck BofB with a fixed ash-pan and a cut-back (but still pivoted) truck that looks almost as good standing still as the fixed trucks.

 

John

Edited January 5, 2022 by Dunsignalling