More model ideas

[TrainsRule88]

I do think that a new range of MK 1 gangway coaches are needed. I understand that Bachmann have just upgraded the chassis on their MK1s but I think it would be good for a new model to the standard of recent releases such as the Accurascale MK 2. 
 

And to my knowledge, the MK 1 has never been produced with window beading or internal lighting and there are also the different types of bogies such as the commonwealth and b4 etc so there is a good range of coaches cover. 
 

The Bachmann MK1 coaches are good, but I don’t think they are up to modern standards now. 
 

The Hornby MK1 is also not too bad but is more of a basic model so there would probably be room for both on the market. 

[reddragon]

20 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

Don’t see there being any possibility of a 47. With Bachmann’s being as good as it is, what would make it viable? Ok, Bachmann are not releasing many, but they could change that quickly if there was competition announced. 
 

Deliberately not mentioned Heljan as the Bachmann model is superior in my opinion and, therefore, the greater competition. 
 

Roy

The 47 is like the 37, a huge market & range to cover. 47.601/901 anyone?

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, TrainsRule88 said:

... MK 1 has never been produced with ... internal lighting ...

Don't forget that for most of their lives Mk1 coaches ran with only a few glow worms for lighting and they were only switched on after dark or for tunnels - so lighting would not normally have been detectable from outside well into the blue/grey era after fluorescent tubes were fitted and left on all day.

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

Don’t see there being any possibility of a 47. With Bachmann’s being as good as it is, what would make it viable? Ok, Bachmann are not releasing many, but they could change that quickly if there was competition announced. 
 

Deliberately not mentioned Heljan as the Bachmann model is superior in my opinion and, therefore, the greater competition. 
 

Roy

 

TBH, the older Bachmann model was already the best OO Class 47 out there. 

 

[E100]

4 hours ago, reddragon said:

I'm up for a 9F, class 47 or 42 and a class 387. More coaches and a rake of container wagons.

A 9F? The two examples out currently surely saturate the market enough? Got a Bachmann one recently and it's very good IMO.

[Tim Dubya]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Don't forget that for most of their lives Mk1 coaches ran with only a few glow worms for lighting and they were only switched on after dark or for tunnels - so lighting would not normally have been detectable from outside well into the blue/grey era after fluorescent tubes were fitted and left on all day.

 

I remember on almost every railtour (or 'mystery tours' as my dad used to tell us) there'd either be no or very dodgy worms.  ISTR there was a panel with two buttons to push to restore the coach glow worms sighted in the vestibules?

 

 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Don't forget that for most of their lives Mk1 coaches ran with only a few glow worms for lighting and they were only switched on after dark or for tunnels - so lighting would not normally have been detectable from outside well into the blue/grey era after fluorescent tubes were fitted and left on all day.

Even then the fact that the lights were on was barely detectable in all but the gloomiest daylight conditions, a situation that also applies to post-mk2d coaches with tinted windows.   Lighting on RTR models in general is far too bright and gimmicky, and if the layout is ambient-lit for daylight conditions (and most are lit for summer sunshine) the only lighting that should be immediately apparent to an observer is the loco high-intensity headlights, and these were unknown in the UK until the introduction of the HST in the 70s, and not until the next decade on other stock (‘Heart of Wales’ line excepted).  
 

Not saying lighting is a bad thing, it isn’t, but the RTR approach needs a bit more subtlety and toning down, especially on steam-age locos and stock IMHO.  Of course, if this were done, there would be howls of protest from ill-informed modellers complaining that they couldn’t see the lighting that they’d paid for, so the manufacturers understandably respond to the demand, but perhaps we could have a  ‘dimmed/realistic-level’ setting as well as the standard ‘retina-burner/visible in normal ambient’. 
 

Pre-flourescent  coach lighting was by 25watt filament incandescent bulbs powered by the 20vdc dynamo/battery supply.  As well as the main compartment lights, which could be dimmed by passengers who wanted to sleep, there were reading lights on the divider walls which could be switched off.  None of these were very bright, and even at night were not readily obvious in well lit areas like big stations. 

[Standards_in_OO]

A new Mk1 would be interesting. I do wonder if any manufacturer other than Bachmann and Hornby would be able to do this given the amount of variations and liveries they carried and the initial cost of all the tooling etc. Having said that, as Bachmann have upgraded theirs recently and the Hornby’s are not that old it is unlikely at least for now that they would produce another one. 

[97406]

18 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

TBH, the older Bachmann model was already the best OO Class 47 out there. 

 

 

Plus are people as passionate about 47s as they are with other diesels? I have several 47s and will no doubt get a couple more, but they were exceedingly common in the 70s and 80s and a duff turning up didn’t attract the same excitement as a 37, 40, 50, Rat, Peak or whatever. I still view them as a timeless design classic but they don’t stir the blood as much as other more rateable traction does or did. I’m quite happy to collect far more 37s than I need but not so much with the ubiquitous Duff.

[rob D2]

I’m not a fan of these “ id buy 100 , it’d sell like hotcakes “ type posts ..

 

And I don’t have space for one , and already have the other but surely …

 

The HST , The class 08/09.
 

Nothing on the market to current standards , and the red box versions extremely limited supply and liveries as they concentrate on their core demographic of steam .

[Roy Langridge]

On 26/04/2024 at 12:26, Dunsignalling said:

 

TBH, the older Bachmann model was already the best OO Class 47 out there. 

 

Absolutely, their older model still stands-up well against their newer version which has  led to me not replacing any of my 10 older models. 

Edit: I have bought three new SFX models as well. 

 

Roy

Edited April 27 by Roy Langridge
Additional info

[wombatofludham]

23 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 Lighting on RTR models in general is far too bright and gimmicky, and if the layout is ambient-lit for daylight conditions (and most are lit for summer sunshine) the only lighting that should be immediately apparent to an observer is the loco high-intensity headlights, and these were unknown in the UK until the introduction of the HST in the 70s, and not until the next decade on other stock (‘Heart of Wales’ line excepted).  

Personally I like the interior lighting on most of the coaches I have with it and have started retro-fitting lighting in other stock but as you say some can be a bit too bright.  However, I'm planning to fit the new layout in the garage with a lighting rig using outdoor colour changing spotlights I used in the old shed layout, which allows for changing in lighting colour and intensity.  My idea is to simulate an approaching summer late afternoon thunder storm, with the clouds being penetrated by pools of yellowy-orange light typical of a moisture-laden setting sun environment, which should - if it works - create pools of light and shade with the trains moving in and out of the light and shade highlighting any on board lighting and allowing me to have some buildings with internal lights but others without, and similarly some streetlights having come on in the gloom but others not.  I'm keen on environmental effects, such as background noise and "theatrical" lighting having experimented with both on my previous layout builds, and the availability of internal carriage lighting on some trains, but not all, will contribute to the effect, together with DCC sound fitted locos.  However, my main interest is the environmental setting of the layout and to an extent my interest in the rolling stock is more as rolling scenic actors, and I appreciate that is pretty contrary to the majority of modellers who seemingly obsess about their locos and generally are very much less interested in the scenics.

I'm probably a frustrated theatrical set designer, or it's the retired town planner coming out.

[GD]

23 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Even then the fact that the lights were on was barely detectable in all but the gloomiest daylight conditions, a situation that also applies to post-mk2d coaches with tinted windows.   Lighting on RTR models in general is far too bright and gimmicky, and if the layout is ambient-lit for daylight conditions (and most are lit for summer sunshine) the only lighting that should be immediately apparent to an observer is the loco high-intensity headlights, and these were unknown in the UK until the introduction of the HST in the 70s, and not until the next decade on other stock (‘Heart of Wales’ line excepted).  
 

Not saying lighting is a bad thing, it isn’t, but the RTR approach needs a bit more subtlety and toning down, especially on steam-age locos and stock IMHO.  Of course, if this were done, there would be howls of protest from ill-informed modellers complaining that they couldn’t see the lighting that they’d paid for, so the manufacturers understandably respond to the demand, but perhaps we could have a  ‘dimmed/realistic-level’ setting as well as the standard ‘retina-burner/visible in normal ambient’. 
 

Pre-flourescent  coach lighting was by 25watt filament incandescent bulbs powered by the 20vdc dynamo/battery supply.  As well as the main compartment lights, which could be dimmed by passengers who wanted to sleep, there were reading lights on the divider walls which could be switched off.  None of these were very bright, and even at night were not readily obvious in well lit areas like big stations. 

We used to remove the bulbs and store them on the luggage racks whilst doing overnights up the east coast, replacing them at Edinburgh, so definately no light emitting from our compartments.

[The Johnster]

We used to do this on the 00.05 Cardiff-Liverpool, which was our usual train to the northwest for steam gricing expeditions in the late 60s.  Blinds down as well. 

[GMKAT7]

Good afternoon folks,

 

Phew, I am glad it was not just me removing lamps from the holders on overnight trains on bashing trips down to PZ or up to Scotland.

 

As all good railway men know, the compartments were lit by lamps and bulbs grow in the ground 😆

 

Cheers, Nigel.

[YT-1300]

I understand the desire for more detailed models, prototypical variations etc, and the manufacturers are producing some extremely good models.

 

What I don't understand is the want to dress these very fine models up like fairground rides with overly bright (and sometimes unnecessary) lighting, and sounds that would be barely audible even if you were inside the actual vehicle.  

 

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

...  Blinds down as well. 

Yes - even if the lights stayed on, the blinds would often be pulled down so barely a glimmer would be seen from outside.

[wombatofludham]

1 hour ago, YT-1300 said:

What I don't understand is the want to dress these very fine models up like fairground rides with overly bright (and sometimes unnecessary) lighting, and sounds that would be barely audible even if you were inside the actual vehicle.  

 

Have you seen the Accurascale lighting?  It is not overly bright and just about the right colour and intensity for the Mk2b and c stock which was internally lit by fluorescent tubes, increasing the light levels over the old tungsten bulbs by a significant amount.  Plus, you can switch them off easily with a wafty magnetic lollipop which moves the on-board magnetic reed switch if the lighting offends you.  Nor do they include any on board sounds so that's one less thing to worry about.

All for the price of an unlit coach from other manufacturers.

When I've run coaches with on-board lighting at the public days of the old "Dolgellau" layout the visitors have been transfixed despite the fact they were Mk2f coaches which never went through Dolgellau and was being hauled by a Class 47 which would have planted itself in one of the many rivers along the route being very much not a blue disc weight restriction loco.  They loved the noise and the internally lit coaches and a couple went away having been amazed at the fidelity of modern OO scale and were inspired to think about their own layouts.  For me noise and light were the things missing when I was a younger modeller which I would have dearly loved, so 50 years later, let those of us who want the features to have them.  You don't have to buy locos with sound, and you don't have to have any interior lights on if you don't want to.

No understanding needed, just accept some like these features whilst others don't, but ultimately it's your choice.

[YT-1300]

7 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

Have you seen the Accurascale lighting?  It is not overly bright and just about the right colour and intensity for the Mk2b and c stock which was internally lit by fluorescent tubes, increasing the light levels over the old tungsten bulbs by a significant amount.  Plus, you can switch them off easily with a wafty magnetic lollipop which moves the on-board magnetic reed switch if the lighting offends you.  Nor do they include any on board sounds so that's one less thing to worry about.

All for the price of an unlit coach from other manufacturers.

When I've run coaches with on-board lighting at the public days of the old "Dolgellau" layout the visitors have been transfixed despite the fact they were Mk2f coaches which never went through Dolgellau and was being hauled by a Class 47 which would have planted itself in one of the many rivers along the route being very much not a blue disc weight restriction loco.  They loved the noise and the internally lit coaches and a couple went away having been amazed at the fidelity of modern OO scale and were inspired to think about their own layouts.  For me noise and light were the things missing when I was a younger modeller which I would have dearly loved, so 50 years later, let those of us who want the features to have them.  You don't have to buy locos with sound, and you don't have to have any interior lights on if you don't want to.

No understanding needed, just accept some like these features whilst others don't, but ultimately it's your choice.

I fully accept it, personally, I feel it can detract from the great job made of the model, and indeed the layout it is on.

 

The thread on the recent Cavalax 56 seems to have more posts regarding lights and sound than the actual fidelity of the model itself.

 

I built my layout for me, and when I am lucky enough for it to be asked to an exhibition, I'd like people to be inspired by the subject modelled or the actual modelling, not by noise and lights.   But I understand there are plenty who do like all that side of things.

 

I find sound and lights work best when both are very muted.  Just my opinion.

[farren]

17 minutes ago, YT-1300 said:

I fully accept it, personally, I feel it can detract from the great job made of the model, and indeed the layout it is on.

 

The thread on the recent Cavalax 56 seems to have more posts regarding lights and sound than the actual fidelity of the model itself.

 

I built my layout for me, and when I am lucky enough for it to be asked to an exhibition, I'd like people to be inspired by the subject modelled or the actual modelling, not by noise and lights.   But I understand there are plenty who do like all that side of things.

 

I find sound and lights work best when both are very muted.  Just my opinion.

It’s the age old thing no two modellers want the same thing. I only occasionally sew the real thing as a kid as the bus went over Swain street bridge. Though I’m sure I could have gone spotting myself when older, I didn’t fancy walking around Highfileds the red light central and drug centre of Leicester back then. So now I model for the recreation of childhood memories of playing trains rather then seeing the real things. so lights are a bonus (Hornby class 25 favourite model as a kid) not too bright, but visible is good, I’m never sure if Heljan model lights are on! 
 

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, wombatofludham said:

... but ultimately it's your choice.

... so long as these features remain optional.

[The Johnster]

On 27/04/2024 at 06:45, 97406 said:

 

Plus are people as passionate about 47s as they are with other diesels? I have several 47s and will no doubt get a couple more, but they were exceedingly common in the 70s and 80s and a duff turning up didn’t attract the same excitement as a 37, 40, 50, Rat, Peak or whatever. I still view them as a timeless design classic but they don’t stir the blood as much as other more rateable traction does or did. I’m quite happy to collect far more 37s than I need but not so much with the ubiquitous Duff.

An interesting viewpoint, and very much a trainspotters’ one IMHO.  They were common, 509 in service in the 70s, and perhaps looked a bit dull; they were - are - a well proportioned and neat design and not unattractive in the original two-tone green livery, at least when it was clean (again, IMHO).  But they didn’t have the brutal presence of a Deltic or the elan of a Western.

 

But some the other classes you mention were also pretty ubiquitous; over 300 37s and nearly 500 Rats if you include the 24s and the 25s as all Rats.  There were 200 40s and nearly 200 Peaks (44/5/6, three classes that looked more or less identical).  Come to that there were well over 200 20s.  Perhaps the outline of the 37s, 40s, and the Peaks, with noses, was more inspiring; by the 70s noses were out of fashion and ‘classic’ or perhaps ‘retro’.  The 40s and 20s made interesting noises, and the 37s growled nicely.   The Rats rattled, failed to pull the skin off the driver’s milk, were spectacularly uninspiring lookers, and utterly horrible to work on; we used to reckon the 56 miles between Cardiff and Gloucester with the 00.35 Peterborough parcels, 4E11, at an attempted 90 mph would shorten your spine by at least an inch.  
 

Which leaves the 50s, and the popularity of these amongst spotters has always baffled me.  A class of 50 long-distance express engines used specifically on the WCML initially and later on specific routes further southwest becomes a very common sight on those routes, and one would have thought they were only really excitement-generators to spotters from outside their area.  They were probably the dullest example of loco styling in their era, like a 47 (not the most inspired looker) but even boxier and plainer, boredom personified.  I hated them for finally killing steam in 1968 and then my beloved Westerns, but in general the spotters went nuts over them.   
 

My opinion of 47s was that they deserved more respect than they ever got from the numbertakers; once they were made to run reliably by derating the engines by 100horses, they were the best all-round mixed traffic general purpose locomotive ever devised for use on Britain’s railways.  The cabs were draughty and the ride was horrible, too soft and rolling, but they could pull anything that was coupled to them, and pull it to time; 95mph passenger, long-distance Motorail (with double fuel tanks), Freightliners, TEAs, block coal trains, MGRs.  They could be dual-braked, fitted with ETH, and they were probably signed for traction knowledge at most depots throughout the country, so they were pretty much operable anywhere at a moment’s notice, a true workhorse, Control’s favourites.  And the horns sounded nice.

[farren]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

An interesting viewpoint, and very much a trainspotters’ one IMHO.  They were common, 509 in service in the 70s, and perhaps looked a bit dull; they were - are - a well proportioned and neat design and not unattractive in the original two-tone green livery, at least when it was clean (again, IMHO).  But they didn’t have the brutal presence of a Deltic or the elan of a Western.

 

But some the other classes you mention were also pretty ubiquitous; over 300 37s and nearly 500 Rats if you include the 24s and the 25s as all Rats.  There were 200 40s and nearly 200 Peaks (44/5/6, three classes that looked more or less identical).  Come to that there were well over 200 20s.  Perhaps the outline of the 37s, 40s, and the Peaks, with noses, was more inspiring; by the 70s noses were out of fashion and ‘classic’ or perhaps ‘retro’.  The 40s and 20s made interesting noises, and the 37s growled nicely.   The Rats rattled, failed to pull the skin off the driver’s milk, were spectacularly uninspiring lookers, and utterly horrible to work on; we used to reckon the 56 miles between Cardiff and Gloucester with the 00.35 Peterborough parcels, 4E11, at an attempted 90 mph would shorten your spine by at least an inch.  
 

Which leaves the 50s, and the popularity of these amongst spotters has always baffled me.  A class of 50 long-distance express engines used specifically on the WCML initially and later on specific routes further southwest becomes a very common sight on those routes, and one would have thought they were only really excitement-generators to spotters from outside their area.  They were probably the dullest example of loco styling in their era, like a 47 (not the most inspired looker) but even boxier and plainer, boredom personified.  I hated them for finally killing steam in 1968 and then my beloved Westerns, but in general the spotters went nuts over them.   
 

My opinion of 47s was that they deserved more respect than they ever got from the numbertakers; once they were made to run reliably by derating the engines by 100horses, they were the best all-round mixed traffic general purpose locomotive ever devised for use on Britain’s railways.  The cabs were draughty and the ride was horrible, too soft and rolling, but they could pull anything that was coupled to them, and pull it to time; 95mph passenger, long-distance Motorail (with double fuel tanks), Freightliners, TEAs, block coal trains, MGRs.  They could be dual-braked, fitted with ETH, and they were probably signed for traction knowledge at most depots throughout the country, so they were pretty much operable anywhere at a moment’s notice, a true workhorse, Control’s favourites.  And the horns sounded nice.

Just wondering what’s your view point on the class 31, as a child I always counted them as a big version of the 24 it’s the cab front with the smaller centre window I suppose. Personally  the 31 has to be a favourite with its brutish looks. I was always pleased to see the 31, a 24 would do at a push. 
 
Have to admit I’m more than happy with the correct state on the model front too, having 3 31s on order, one from Accurascale, tempted with a second blue one depending on expected delivery date. 

 

[atom3624]

It appears there may be room for a modern detail, Accurascale-style, reliable Black 5 to go with the 8F request.  This is everybody's favourite as a 'general purpose' locomotive.

If not wanting to go there, then even British Standard 4MT / 5MT tender models would be interesting - the present ones are 'good / average' and definitely in need of a serious upgrade.

Al.

[Wickham Green too]

51 minutes ago, atom3624 said:

... Black 5 ... everybody's favourite as a 'general purpose' locomotive. ...

A slight exaggeration there - even in preservation there are lots of areas that have never seen one ................ yes, a nice 'general purpose' locomotive in its place.