LMS and MR 2P 4-4-0

[MJI]

I am new to these but they are fascinating.

 

Got a list of 2 MR and 1 LMS version.

 

I am trying find models of the above, is it much work to convert a Mainline 2P to the MR version?

 

Thanks

 

Martin

[Nile]

I've done it.

It isn't perfect as the edge of the running plate differs between the two versions, but it's a minor issue to me.

You don't have to build a new chassis, use a newer Hornby loco powered version instead.

[wainwright1]

Were there Somerset and Dorset and Midland and Great Northern variations of these locos as well ?

 

i.e. Different height chimneys and domes. tablet catchers for example ?

 

All the best

Ray

 

[Poor Old Bruce]

There were certainly 2Ps on the SDJR of both Midland and LMS varieties, most likely fitted with T/C gear but otherwise standard.

[kevinlms]

On 25/07/2020 at 23:23, MJI said:

I am new to these but they are fascinating.

 

Got a list of 2 MR and 1 LMS version.

 

I am trying find models of the above, is it much work to convert a Mainline 2P to the MR version?

 

Thanks

 

Martin

One difference is that the Midland versions had 7ft drivers, the LMS ones were 6'9". Whether you want to model that difference, is up to you.

[MJI]

I have noticed LHD and RHD and tender

[kevinlms]

39 minutes ago, MJI said:

I have noticed LHD and RHD and tender

Yes, Midland were all RHD, the LMS initially built Midland designs to RHD too, but later batches were to LHD. Exactly when the changeover occurred in relation to the 2P's, I'm not sure.

[OFFTHE RAILS]

On 25/07/2020 at 14:23, MJI said:

I am new to these but they are fascinating.

 

Got a list of 2 MR and 1 LMS version.

 

I am trying find models of the above, is it much work to convert a Mainline 2P to the MR version?

 

Thanks

 

Martin

 

BTW, “2P” is just an LMS power classification. The LMS had dozens of different loco types with the classification 2P.

 

The final LMS 4-4-0 2P locos built 1928-32 numbered 563 to 700 were the type represented by the models made by Mainline, Dapol and Hornby. The real locos were all LHD with 6'9' driving wheels

 

These LMS locos were based on the 157 Midland Railway“483” locos built from 1913. These were RHD and had 7' 0 wheels. ” These were supposedly rebuilt from a wide variety of 4-4-0s built by Johnson and Deeley but effectively they were new engines.

 

The Mainline/Dapol/Hornby model is a reasonable model of the final LMS type and to convert one to the ex-Midland 483 type RHD boiler pipework should be replaced with LHD pipework and the tender changed for a Johnson type tender

Ian

[MJI]

I have pictures of all 3 possibles so will modify to suit.

 

Also seen quite a few really cheap Midland compound static bodies, I may get one as a trial.

 

I don;t think I can go wrong with Comet chassis and Markit wheels for these.

[MJI]

These will all be locos that ran locally and could run on my WR layout if backdated.

 

Seems strange that the same lines had Midland LMS GWR BR Standards and various Diesels.

 

May be repainting a few GWR into BR for the same line, got a mogul and a pannier happy to change, the Hall is staying preserved as is the BR 4MT.

 

Will be fun to try anyway.

[Steamport Southport]

23 minutes ago, MJI said:

I have pictures of all 3 possibles so will modify to suit.

 

Also seen quite a few really cheap Midland compound static bodies, I may get one as a trial.

 

I don;t think I can go wrong with Comet chassis and Markit wheels for these.

 

The Comet chassis kit for the 2P is fine.

 

 

But if you are using a GBL or Bachmann Compound be aware that the Comet chassis is made for the Hornby version and is wrong.

 

Note The Hornby model has a 40mm wheelbase, and the chassis has been designed to match. It is not suitable for scale models with a 38mm wheelbase.

 

http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/data/Catalog/pdf/LCP9.pdf

 

 

Best using the Alan Gibson chassis for the Compound as they have the correct wheelbases.

 

LM1-24 MR Compound 4-4-0

LM1-25 LMS Compound 4-4-0

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

34 minutes ago, OFFTHE RAILS said:

 

BTW, “2P” is just an LMS power classification. The LMS had dozens of different loco types with the classification 2P.

 

The final LMS 4-4-0 2P locos built 1928-32 numbered 563 to 700 were the type represented by the models made by Mainline, Dapol and Hornby. The real locos were all LHD with 6'9' driving wheels

 

These LMS locos were based on the 157 Midland Railway“483” locos built from 1913. These were RHD and had 7' 0 wheels. ” These were supposedly rebuilt from a wide variety of 4-4-0s built by Johnson and Deeley but effectively they were new engines.

 

The Mainline/Dapol/Hornby model is a reasonable model of the final LMS type and to convert one to the ex-Midland 483 type RHD boiler pipework should be replaced with LHD pipework and the tender changed for a Johnson type tender

Ian

 

However LMS 2P 4-4-0 was the official "class name" for the LMS built ones and was even used in publicity.

 

 

 

Jason

[MJI]

The 2P has arrived, not sure now what gauge to do, if to go finescale OO or EM,

 

Will definately be bullhead.

 

Decided not to use on my BR era layout which is code 100 Peco.

[MJI]

Does anyone know if there are any tender differences between the 2P and 4P 4-4-0s

 

I am looking at back dating to a MR 2P with MR tender, and I have a GBL 4P on the way with MR tender but my 4P will be an LMS built one.

 

Currently looks like swapping tenders may work.

 

 

[Nile]

What you really want is the tender that comes with the Bachmann Midland 3F or 4F.

London Road Models have a brass kit if you fancy building one.

[Poor Old Bruce]

18 hours ago, MJI said:

Does anyone know if there are any tender differences between the 2P and 4P 4-4-0s

 

I am looking at back dating to a MR 2P with MR tender, and I have a GBL 4P on the way with MR tender but my 4P will be an LMS built one.

 

Currently looks like swapping tenders may work.

 

Unfortunately for you, the GBL Midland Compound tender is not suitable for a 2P (unless you apply Rule 1 of course). The GBL Compound is fitted with a Deeley tender as fitted to the preserved loco. This particular tender is one of five built in 1914 to go with the first batch of Somerset & Dorset 2-8-0s and was to a modified design which included tender cabs. The front tender cut-out was amended to reflect the shape of the loco cab. The tender cabs were later removed but the remains of the cut-out were left as built. Deeley tenders had a longer chassis and wheelbase than the Fowler version. When 41000 was withdrawn in 1950, it had a 'hybrid' tender with a standard (for want of a better word) Fowler body on a longer Deeley chassis (there is one of these attached to the restored SDJR No.88 on the West Somerset Railway). When 1000 was restored to working order, the only Deeley tender(s) surviving were those with the SDJR 2-8-0s so one of those was pinched but it retains the SDJR features.

[MJI]

Had a play with the 2P, bits falling off (no problem) and the chassis is scrap, keeps jamming.

 

DEFINITELY going loco drive

[DCB]

On 26/07/2020 at 17:10, MJI said:

These will all be locos that ran locally and could run on my WR layout if backdated.

 

Seems strange that the same lines had Midland LMS GWR BR Standards and various Diesels.

 The ex LMS and S&D lines south of Chetenham had a good mix of LMS, GWR and BR Standards.

The Somerset and Dorset really only had two ex GWR types the 57XX/ 8750 panniers and 2251 "Collett Goods" locos.  The Panniers replaced withdrawn Jinties and the 2251 withdrawn LMS 0-6-0s as they became due for overhaul and were whisked away to Derby.  GWR  outside cylinder locos were considered too wide for the S&D, I don't suppose anyone actually checked, so BR Standards were supplied by the WR (and SR) to cover other withdrawn ex LMS power

The 4-4-0s were replaced largely by BR std 4 locos, 4-6-0s circa 1957(?) initially but later by 2-6-4Ts.   The Midland 2Ps were well liked but overloaded on the S&D 6 coaches being their limit a test with 7 had the loco at walking pace with full regulator and maximum cut off slogging up to Maesbur sumit.   The 4Fs were drafted in on heavier passenger workings on which they were loathed as their boiler was the same as the 2P but they couldn't make up lost time downhill and couldn't refill their boilers fast enough on downhill stretches either.   BR Standard 5MTs were main passenger locos in late 50s / early 60s with help from 4 X 9Fs in 1960/1/2 and two in 1963

9Fs could handle the lighter trains single handed leaving the heaviest ones to 5MTs whch took a pilot from Evercreech Jct to Bath.   Evening Star took 430 tons unassisted on the final Pines express but 400 was the official limit.

 

Edited August 4, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi,
Save all the faff and buy a Hornby R3315, this one has been given AG chimney and dome, new handrails, better bogie wheels and other tiny upgrades. Runs like a dream.
 

Cheers and Stay Safe

 

[MJI]

After my Swindon DMU is complete I hope to restart on the 2P

 

Will get a LRM tender and a Comet chassis.

 

Found the driving wheels on Gibson site but do not know what size the bogie wheels are.

 

Anyone know?

[PenrithBeacon]

On 30/07/2020 at 23:41, MJI said:

The 2P has arrived, not sure now what gauge to do, if to go finescale OO or EM,

 

Will definately be bullhead.

 

Decided not to use on my BR era layout which is code 100 Peco.

The Comet chassis is a fold-up that is intended for 00 only with 6'-9" wheels. For other gauges you will need to order appropriate frame spacers, Comet do them.

I have a Hornby body in stock, this has a Fowler chimney so I bought a 4F Stanier one in white metal from 247 Developments to suit it for the BR era.

In addition to being useful engine for semi-fast passenger work, they could be seen pushing engineers coaches around in the 50/60s period. 

[Steamport Southport]

Mine's like this. I think it was one that was going to be revamped but it never happened.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/locomotive/lcp10/

 

 

Bogie wheels are 3' 6" ten spoke. 

 

4842 3' 6" 14.0mm. 10 spoke Plain rim if using Gibson

 

 

Jason

[MJI]

Tender on the way.

 

Serves me right for having too many projects, had parts arrive today for both Cornish 1960s project and WR IC DMU project.

 

Decided I will not start the tender until the 120 DMU has been door hinged and roof vented.

 

Prairie is nabbed for Cornish project.

[MJI]

Got a tender now, next order will be Gibson wheels and Comet chassis.

[MJI]

On 17/04/2021 at 14:28, Steamport Southport said:

Mine's like this. I think it was one that was going to be revamped but it never happened.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/locomotive/lcp10/

 

 

Bogie wheels are 3' 6" ten spoke. 

 

4842 3' 6" 14.0mm. 10 spoke Plain rim if using Gibson

 

 

Jason

 

How about tender wheels please?

 

4842 for bogie

4884 for loco

 

Thanks

 

Martin