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Amanda,

I believe Minories is possible if you accept restrictions. I am proposing to build this in O gauge layout with a total length of 4220mm, the traverser is 1200mm capacity to hold 2, 54 ft coaches and a tank engine.

The layout is a caricature of the ex Great Eastern station at North Woolwich on the river Thames. The era is 1950/60 with small steam engines and DMU'S, at this time there was still considerable freight to the waterside industries.

 

John

NORTH WOOLWICH.pdf

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Thanks folks!

I'd probably get one of those Ian Kirk part kits and see what I can build, except he seems to only take postal money orders or checks... through the post...

Banks here in the Netherlands don't even *cash* checks anymore, let alone issue them.

Sigh. 

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Amanda, Invertrain does PayPal.  He is kind of slow to get the invoice out though.

 

https://invertrain.com/product-category/rolling-stock-kits/coaches-rolling-stock-kits/

 

You can get an idea of what Kirk kits are about here:

 

 

Gresley 52' coaches but the principles are the same I assume.  After nearly 4 years, I still haven't finished 2 out of 3 coaches.

 

John

Edited by brossard
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One way to get a Minories terminus in is to view the approach tracks as bidirectional on the visible portion of the layout, rather than have up and down tracks coming in. That way you can lose at least the length of two points on a crossover on the overall plan. The fiddle yard is formed by cassettes, just the length of your train, although you’ll find you need to keep the length down, or they become too cumbersome to handle.

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1 hour ago, WM183 said:

Are the Invertrain kits like the Ian Kirk ones?

 

They are Kirk kits.  At least when I bought mine they were.  I wish traders would do a better job of describing their product.

 

John

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Hi Amanda,

 

Sounds like a good plan but I would go back a little in time. If you set your era in early LMS days you could use pre grouping stock and locos. coaches would be around 45-50ft That will buy you some space.  You could even have some 6 wheel coaches, even shorter. I think that would be much more satisfying to operate. 2 60 ft coaches will measure out at  around 840 mm. 2 45 ft coaches is around 630 mm. It'll make a lot of difference. Slaters do a range of Midland coaches which could fit the bill.

 

Cheers

David

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Just checked the Slaters website. The Midland bogies coaches are of 43ft prototypes. That works out at 300mm per coach, ie 1 ft. At a stretch you might manage 3.

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You could travel in the opposite direction in time and do a 60's to 80's city terminus with DMU's. Easybuild do a good range and are a joy to build. My signiture is an Easybuild 101 i completed last year. A terminus from this era would have a simplified layout of course. You could even have an 08 or 03 a few vans too. 

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Thanks much for the advice and imput folks. It has helped sort the mess of stuff I am thinking about out. I am still waffling back and forth between 4 and 7mm, because while I have no desire to run Pacifics or 8Fs, I do want to run medium size locos; class 4 tanks and moguls, the odd Black 5 perhaps. It's perfectly doable in my space, just with shortish trains, so perhaps a sleepy branch somewhere is better for 0 gauge; a tank loco and a single coach, or a Class 4 mogul on a short goods, would look right at home in such a place I'd suppose.

 

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1 hour ago, WM183 said:

Thanks much for the advice and imput folks. It has helped sort the mess of stuff I am thinking about out. I am still waffling back and forth between 4 and 7mm, because while I have no desire to run Pacifics or 8Fs, I do want to run medium size locos; class 4 tanks and moguls, the odd Black 5 perhaps. It's perfectly doable in my space, just with shortish trains, so perhaps a sleepy branch somewhere is better for 0 gauge; a tank loco and a single coach, or a Class 4 mogul on a short goods, would look right at home in such a place I'd suppose.

 

What you describe sounds very much like a Bradfield type layout - biggest engine being a common or garden Black 5 or perhaps a Jubilee and 4/5 coaches.  In the space available that only going to be 4mm, if you go 7mm you're talking Trebudoc or similar.

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I agree.  I posted a link to Trebudoc earlier.

 

I did 4mm (00) for 30 years or so.  I always felt frustrated with the gauge and couplings.  I did try EM but converting steam locos defeated me.

 

No prizes for guessing that I vote for 0 gauge.  My conversion to 7mm 4 years ago was like Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus - the light went on and it has shone brightly ever since.

 

John

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You need to qualify that though because O gauge cannot always be the answer.

 

You have to look at the whole picture and decide what can be fitted in the space available against the want/needs and budget of the builder.

 

If you are space limited then O gauge comes down to a Trebudoc branch with some of the throat excluded and worked through clever use of the fiddleyard, if you just like locomotives then you have have a small engine shed or part of a larger shed with nice engines with all their coupling/piping glory in situ or if you like banging wagons together then an inglenook.

 

But if your desire is to represent a town terminus with cross country passenger trains and some inclusion of bigger tender engines then you need to rethink the scale downwards until you can fit your wants/needs into the space with the minimum number of compromises you can accept.

 

Interestingly, I've recently gone down this route, I was doing a branch station in 00 but it lacked any running line, so I've dug out my N gauge so that I can have a terminus and actual line running.  I am missing some rather nice GW locos and with Dapol bringing out a Mogul I am gutted to a certain extent, but in N I get to watch the trains move more than a couple of feet and then stop again.

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You are quite right.  It does depend on what you want to achieve.  For me I can live with my BLT that takes just two coach trains.  Shunting is the interesting aspect and passenger ops have been catered for but are not terribly interesting to me.  I do have the luxury of a bit more space (21' incl 5' sector plate).

 

John

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On 31/07/2020 at 13:59, WM183 said:

Hi hi all.

I'm waiting on some of the LMS Locomotive Profiles books - namely the 4F and parallel boiler 2-6-4t books - and contemplating what I'd like to do with these engines once I tackle the builds. Now, I know this would be better done in 4mm - the locomotives are available and the Comet models kits make the coaches fun to build! - but is a Minories type layout something anyone's done in 7mm? I have a spare room with 14 feet - a shade over 4 meters - of wall. I'd love to be able to run a Fairburn or Stanier class 4 tank, or even a Black 5, with 3 or 4 coaches behind it, as well as have a parcel dock and a small goods store/shed. I don'tg know if i have the room, however. I think I'd like to avoid the "Rural BLT" if i can and do something more urban, though I still would like some greenery here and there!

How big (long) is a Class 4 or 5 and 4 coaches? 5 feet or so, yes?

Thinking, 


Amanda

Hi Amanda

You'd be pushed to get Minories into 14 feet straight including the fiddle yard and if the room's width is only four feet I guess that makes a U shaped layout impossible (Even with demountable fiddle yard boards?)

 

The best example of a 7mm scale Minories that comes to mind is Brian Thomas' Newford (now part of "Littleton" and extended with car sheds etc)

1665606944_NewfordwatfordFS030012.jpg.3a66241889236314a953e5e5717f189b.jpg

 

watfordFS030020_right_adj_.jpg.c9aaf5b81747dc338f6dab539cc737e7.jpg

This had a scenic section of 14 ftx 22 inches  (two platform boards each four foot long and the throat pointwork on a (very heavy said Brian) six foot long board. That would take a four car Southern EMU very comfortably and it would accomodate a four coach train loco hauled train. It was a direct transposition to 7mm scale of the basic Cyril Freezer design except that the loco spur was a short parcels/sundries road and Brian added a carriage siding between platforms 1&2. I have operated it and though running 2NOL, 4BEL, 4COR and the rest of the S.R.'s alphabet soup of EMUs in and out wasn't quite my cup of tea it was a good layout and I agree with Tony (t-b-g) about the fun to be had from a Minories. 

 

The other layout that comes to mind is Jon Denning's Vine Street. (British Railway Modelling April 2001)  This was based on Uxbridge Vine Street so was/is a double track W.R./M.R. borders line leading to an urban station with an Island platform, two road goods yard and a steel yard siding to vary the goods activity. That fitted into a 15ft by 12ft room as an L and passenger trains were two carriages long possibly plus a parcels van. When it was in BRM the four locos included a 14xx, Pannier tank, 45xx small Prairie and a BR 2MT 2-6-0 tender loco. plus a couple of 2 car DMUs. though I think a couple of diesels appreared later. Operation involved quite a lot of parcels traffic.

1658152094_LargeScales-May05_0024.JPG.27a71009b915a6eabb2fab88f0c02419.JPG602225515_LargeScales-May05_0028.JPG.2c822fb0ccf5345b50215b0f4ff82699.JPG

I saw Vine Street  at several exhibitions and it's one of those layouts I found myself spending  a long time watching every time I saw it.

The things that struck me were that in 7mm scale you weren't  aware of how short the trains were (that applied to Newford as well where a four car Brighton Belle set looked like  a proper express), Jon had also got away from the rural BLT look you normally associate with a layout that size and it had a busy semi-suburban ambience (like the real Vine Street) set in a West Midlands town  somewhere between Birmingham and Gloucester. It also didn't look at all cramped. The minimum radius was supposed to be four foot  but he had to go below that in a few places.  I assume that means it wasn't fine scale but I'm not so sure. Certainly as I hope my photos show, there was nothing even remotely "train set" about it. I do remember chatting to  Jon at one show where he was  close to what I think was a Scale 7 Group stand with a large notice saying "Why Compromise?"  which drew the comment "Because it's the only way I can fit my layout in the ******** room! Jon is a fine scale modeller but even they have to compromise.

There is a pretty good video of Vine Street here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiO9dKexPLA

 

 

Edited by Pacific231G
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44 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

You need to qualify that though because O gauge cannot always be the answer.

 

You have to look at the whole picture and decide what can be fitted in the space available against the want/needs and budget of the builder.

 

If you are space limited then O gauge comes down to a Trebudoc branch with some of the throat excluded and worked through clever use of the fiddleyard, if you just like locomotives then you have have a small engine shed or part of a larger shed with nice engines with all their coupling/piping glory in situ or if you like banging wagons together then an inglenook.

 

But if your desire is to represent a town terminus with cross country passenger trains and some inclusion of bigger tender engines then you need to rethink the scale downwards until you can fit your wants/needs into the space with the minimum number of compromises you can accept.

 

Interestingly, I've recently gone down this route, I was doing a branch station in 00 but it lacked any running line, so I've dug out my N gauge so that I can have a terminus and actual line running.  I am missing some rather nice GW locos and with Dapol bringing out a Mogul I am gutted to a certain extent, but in N I get to watch the trains move more than a couple of feet and then stop again.

I'm not so sure. I could easily get everything I desire into the space available in N scale but it just feels too distant and small; like seeing the railway from a light aircraft, it's "over there" not  "here" . I model in H0 scale and that scale works for me so I can see why if you want the presence and "heft" of O scale. you'd accept other compromises to keep it. Of course there's always S scale and somehow the "inbetween" scales like TT and S often seem like just the right compromise.

 

Something I have noticed is that, in the flesh rather than photographs, the larger the scale the more you can accept far more compression of reality. Its something to do with how much we can see in a single glance. Without view blockers a four coach express in H0 (the longest train I can run if I build my Minories inspired MLT in the four metres I have available) looks a bit sawn off though five seems fine. In 0 scale it looks fine so long as you don't see it all from a distance (The three coach Gauge One express trains at Bekonscot just look a bit silly and they've got plenty of space to run proper length trains)

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I have seen Newford in the flesh and I love it but it you need a house to fit a layout like that.

 

One option if you want to add a little more scope for goods is something based in Iain Rice's "Harestone". This loses the 3rd platform for a small goods yard and a more suburban feel rather than a city-center layout.

 

minoroesrice_0003.jpg

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

I'm not so sure. I could easily get everything I desire into the space available in N scale but it just feels too distant and small; like seeing the railway from a light aircraft, it's "over there" not  "here" . I model in H0 scale and that scale works for me so I can see why if you want the presence and "heft" of O scale. you'd accept other compromises to keep it. Of course there's always S scale and somehow the "inbetween" scales like TT and S often seem like just the right compromise.

 

Something I have noticed is that, in the flesh rather than photographs, the larger the scale the more you can accept far more compression of reality. Its something to do with how much we can see in a single glance. Without view blockers a four coach express in H0 (the longest train I can run if I build my Minories inspired MLT in the four metres I have available) looks a bit sawn off though five seems fine. In 0 scale it looks fine so long as you don't see it all from a distance (The three coach Gauge One express trains at Bekonscot just look a bit silly and they've got plenty of space to run proper length trains)

I think all we are proving is there is no right answer, what works for one of us is a compromise too far for another -we all have our cut off points.

 

But you are correct that the sheer heft of O does allow it to operate with shorter trains, or perhaps those who do model it do so by applying the appropriate compromises on the model to not make it look unbalanced.  Both of the examples above use the right trains in the space available to make the model look authentic to a prototype - even Vine St would look odd if the Ivatt Class 2 was replaced with a bigger locomotive Ivatt had a hand in namely 46256

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3 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I have seen Newford in the flesh and I love it but it you need a house to fit a layout like that.

 

One option if you want to add a little more scope for goods is something based in Iain Rice's "Harestone". This loses the 3rd platform for a small goods yard and a more suburban feel rather than a city-center layout.

 

minoroesrice_0003.jpg

 

 

 

Oddly enough I was just reading Finescale Layouts for Small Spaces, and this popped up. I could certainly fit this into my available area in 0, but the fiddle yard would require some changes.  I see some of the wonderful stuff people do with smaller spaces, and I do love the size and heft of O gauge. Layouts like Trebudoc, Arun Quay, Cwm Bach, and so on show that a spare bedroom with only one available wall (Doors on one end, window on other, grr) can still house a reasonable layout.

I am ok with 4mm. I just would love to make it go in 7.

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4 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Hi Amanda

You'd be pushed to get Minories into 14 feet straight including the fiddle yard and if the room's width is only four feet I guess that makes a U shaped layout impossible (Even with demountable fiddle yard boards?)

 

The best example of a 7mm scale Minories that comes to mind is Brian Thomas' Newford (now part of "Littleton" and extended with car sheds etc)

1665606944_NewfordwatfordFS030012.jpg.3a66241889236314a953e5e5717f189b.jpg

 

watfordFS030020_right_adj_.jpg.c9aaf5b81747dc338f6dab539cc737e7.jpg

This had a scenic section of 14 ftx 22 inches  (two platform boards each four foot long and the throat pointwork on a (very heavy said Brian) six foot long board. That would take a four car Southern EMU very comfortably and it would accomodate a four coach train loco hauled train. It was a direct transposition to 7mm scale of the basic Cyril Freezer design except that the loco spur was a short parcels/sundries road and Brian added a carriage siding between platforms 1&2. I have operated it and though running 2NOL, 4BEL, 4COR and the rest of the S.R.'s alphabet soup of EMUs in and out wasn't quite my cup of tea it was a good layout and I agree with Tony (t-b-g) about the fun to be had from a Minories. 

 

The other layout that comes to mind is Jon Denning's Vine Street. (British Railway Modelling April 2001)  This was based on Uxbridge Vine Street so was/is a double track W.R./M.R. borders line leading to an urban station with an Island platform, two road goods yard and a steel yard siding to vary the goods activity. That fitted into a 15ft by 12ft room as an L and passenger trains were two carriages long possibly plus a parcels van. When it was in BRM the four locos included a 14xx, Pannier tank, 45xx small Prairie and a BR 2MT 2-6-0 tender loco. plus a couple of 2 car DMUs. though I think a couple of diesels appreared later. Operation involved quite a lot of parcels traffic.

1658152094_LargeScales-May05_0024.JPG.27a71009b915a6eabb2fab88f0c02419.JPG602225515_LargeScales-May05_0028.JPG.2c822fb0ccf5345b50215b0f4ff82699.JPG

I saw Vine Street  at several exhibitions and it's one of those layouts I found myself spending  a long time watching every time I saw it.

The things that struck me were that in 7mm scale you weren't  aware of how short the trains were (that applied to Newford as well where a four car Brighton Belle set looked like  a proper express), Jon had also got away from the rural BLT look you normally associate with a layout that size and it had a busy semi-suburban ambience (like the real Vine Street) set in a West Midlands town  somewhere between Birmingham and Gloucester. It also didn't look at all cramped. The minimum radius was supposed to be four foot  but he had to go below that in a few places.  I assume that means it wasn't fine scale but I'm not so sure. Certainly as I hope my photos show, there was nothing even remotely "train set" about it. I do remember chatting to  Jon at one show where he was  close to what I think was a Scale 7 Group stand with a large notice saying "Why Compromise?"  which drew the comment "Because it's the only way I can fit my layout in the ******** room! Jon is a fine scale modeller but even they have to compromise.

There is a pretty good video of Vine Street here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiO9dKexPLA

 

 

 

I remember that layout well. It was one of those that I could enjoy watching for a good long time at shows. The modelling was to a good standard but it was the quality of the operating that really made it for me.

 

It was one of the layouts that inspired me to have a dabble in O Gauge.

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HI all , i am also very interested in , this type of layout for 7mm - but i also need help , if we take  Iain rice , plan  drawn in 4mm scale ?? multiply 6.5 x 21" comes out at 11.3 feet  ?  which in turn leaves 2ft 9" for a fiddle yard ???  please could someone say if it would be possible to change  the entrance points , useing the fiddle yard   which in turn may increase the fiddle yard size to 4 ft 6" to give the chance of a tank loco + b set  any help with the adjustment  please, or words  of  help as would it work  thanks for reading  Dave 

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Don't get too bogged down in the numbers. Rice's plan has platforms c4'6" long which would be nearly 8' in 7mm - almost twice the length of any train that your fiddle yard could deliver. I suggest that you avoid building a model of a model. Instead, look at a suitable prototype station that takes your fancy, assess its suitability to sustain interest and mock it up with printed paper templates on a piece of old wallpaper. You will have to compromise, reduce platform lengths etc but that's part of the fun!

Dave

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3 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I have seen Newford in the flesh and I love it but it you need a house to fit a layout like that.

 

One option if you want to add a little more scope for goods is something based in Iain Rice's "Harestone". This loses the 3rd platform for a small goods yard and a more suburban feel rather than a city-center layout.

 

minoroesrice_0003.jpg

 

 

Not as big a house as you'd need for Littleton, the layout that Newford became part of after Brian sold it. That's 32 feet long

AllyPally07-0078.JPG.2b6003d60383e48832b7d489f0b56176.JPG

Harestone does seem similar in scope to Vine St. but I think I prefer Jon Denings plan, perhaps because it's based on a real outer subbie terminus.  Size is probably comparable but Vine St. just seems a bit more urban and it has better shunting potential.

 

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