hayfield Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 (edited) For years I have liked and collected K's kits, to the best of my knowledge I have a complete collection of both the 4 mm scale standard gauge wagon and coach kits (and perhaps all the 009 ones) that were retailed including the various versions which transitioned from whitemetal to plastic kits. Example is the 6 wheel syphon, initially all whitemetal, then with a plastic body and a whitemetal underframe, lastly all plastic. One day I noticed still wrapped up on eBay a plastic kit of a K's BR Cartic, sadly at the time I lost the bid to what I thought was silly money. One of my biggest regrets Now I asked around and found out K's made these for a British Railways promotion and they were never sold to the general public. Since loosing the auction I have been on the look out for one. They may not be a great model but as a collection I knew my collection was incomplete. Then last week I noticed this one on eBay, thankfully it ended at a silly time (4pm on a Tuesday) and only one other bidder OK its incomplete, as it is missing the middle bogie and buffer ends (if it had them at all). It certainly is kit built, not a RTR or scratch built model, but then if it was designed to be a promotional giveaway I guess it had to resemble the item and built to a budget. No markings as to the make. Thankfully I never paid that much, £22.09 including postage. So nothing lost if its not what it was claimed to be, plus there are not many K's collectors Now I need another bogie and I guess I should make an attempt to paint it and perhaps add a bit of extra detail (buffer beams?) Any info about either the kit, the bogie or the prototype would be greatly appreciated Edited November 26, 2020 by hayfield 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 15, 2020 Author Share Posted August 15, 2020 Just found this thread 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 In the mid-70s I bought a Cartic-2 kit from the much-missed Railway Bookshop in Headington, Oxford; This would presumably have been the K's kit ? Sadly long gone now, of course (both the model and the shop !) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 By the mid-70s ther Tri-ang-Hornby version was around (1969 introduction), which was also a 'Cartic-2'. This version was re-run several times, last in 2008/9. The K's version is mentioned in the June 1968 Railway Modeller 'Scrapbox' section, with a photograph of the display models: Peco concrete track (1 yard), T-H English Electric type 3 (blue Class 37), T-H Mk.1 CK and Sleeper in blue/grey and K's 'Cartic-2'. It says "this kit was specially commissioned by B.R. for the purpose; we are lucky enough to benefit from their enterprise." The same display model is shown in the July 1968 Model Railway Constructor too (along with scale drawings of inners and outers), though from a different angle and it has oval buffers at the outer ends. Both suggest the kit was actually sold to the public. Furthermore the kit was advertised for sale by H.A. Blunt (£1/4/10), Eames (£1/5/9) and W&H Models (25/8 i.e. £1/5/8). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 15, 2020 Author Share Posted August 15, 2020 Bernard Thank you for the info, I have some oval buffers from that era, but may be a bit chunky for a wagon. If anyone has a copy of the article could you please scan it and PM me a copy, thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKPR Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 Model Railway Constructor November 1968 (sorry, that should read 'model railway constructor november 68' ) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 18, 2020 Author Share Posted August 18, 2020 Thanks This is the first time I have ever seen anything to do with the kit being supplied to the public from K's. The information I was given many years ago was that it was a promotional item for BR only. I now stand corrected and its an even more important item in my collection. Thank you Does anyone have a spare bogie please Did it originally have a buffer beam and buffers ? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 57 minutes ago, hayfield said: Thanks This is the first time I have ever seen anything to do with the kit being supplied to the public from K's. The information I was given many years ago was that it was a promotional item for BR only. I now stand corrected and its an even more important item in my collection. Thank you Does anyone have a spare bogie please Did it originally have a buffer beam and buffers ? It did originally have buffer beams and buffers. Interestingly, in one of my collection of BR Data sheets, it mentions that the Cartic is currently a 4-unit wagon, but the possibility of 2 and 3 unit sets is being investigated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 1 hour ago, hayfield said: This is the first time I have ever seen anything to do with the kit being supplied to the public from K's. The information I was given many years ago was that it was a promotional item for BR only. I now stand corrected and its an even more important item in my collection. Thank you I had hoped to find that advert, confirming that those shops I mentioned weren't selling what might now be called 'vapourware'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 I had/may still have mine. I bough them many years ago and tried modifying one of the end cars to make a centre car. I'm certain I've got a built up spare bogie somewhere. Back in 1982-ish I got a bit of "industrial injury" money from BR (another story) and used the money to pay Ks (by that time in Banbury) to make a kit for the new VGA wagon in plastic. While I was at their factory I asked Melvin Keyser about the Cartic. He told me the history of them which Hayfield details above and he showed me the original moulds I asked him about doing a run of them as there was a lot of interest there in the current "modern image" stock. The moulds were very basic being made from brass and not designed for a long life. He tried a couple of test mouldings for me but reckoned they were not worth proceeding with. I contacted Hornby about supplying their plastic Cartic bogies and they would have quite happily make a run if I wanted 5,000 of them. But with the Ks moulds being beyond further use I decided not to proceed with that project and carried on with the VGA kit which sold about 5000 I think. I still have the receipt for the moulds somewhere. I can't remember what buffers were used on the Ks Cartic, if I find mine I'll let you know. I've got 3 Black 5s in various stages of build, a Beyer-Peacock tank, an Adams Radial and a Q1 in bits if anyone's interested. Maybe a couple of LMS 2-6-4T locos too. I'm having to clear out a lot of part-built things. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 I have a couple of the K's kits, bought with the original intention of converting one kit into centre cars and form an authentic Cartic-4. However, the centre cars are not a simple modification of the end cars, so I may end up with two rakes, each with scratchbuilt centre cars. Many years ago, I bought from one of the Tri-ang Hornby spares specialists of the time, a considerable number of Cartic body mouldings and bogies - again with the intention of cutting & shutting a four car rake. For the same reason as mentioned above, this never happened and I must, when I get round to it, dispose of the Tri-ang Hornby bodies and bogies via Ebay. John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 The K's Cartic-2 kit, commissioned by BR, was for the the large demonstration model produced to promote the late 1960s proposal for a Channel Tunnel. To haul the tunnel trains, I believe that the model used Trix AL1 locos. I recall seeing an article on the model in the contemporary model railway press. John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philou Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 The father of a pal had sourced the plans at 4mm scale and made his up out of 40thou plasticard which was the then way to go for non-kit, non-RTR models. As it was in the late mid-60s, I have no recollection of what he used for bogies. Envious? Moi? Cheers and good luck, Philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 25 minutes ago, Philou said: The father of a pal had sourced the plans at 4mm scale and made his up out of 40thou plasticard which was the then way to go for non-kit, non-RTR models. As it was in the late mid-60s, I have no recollection of what he used for bogies. Envious? Moi? Cheers and good luck, Philip Hornby 'Freightliner' ones? It's what Hornby themselves did, and what I did when extending my Hornby one to a 4-Car set. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 6 minutes ago, Fat Controller said: Hornby 'Freightliner' ones? It's what Hornby themselves did, and what I did when extending my Hornby one to a 4-Car set. Were the Cartic and Freightliner bogies one and the same - with a twin pivot added for the Cartic articulated version? John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, cctransuk said: Were the Cartic and Freightliner bogies one and the same - with a twin pivot added for the Cartic articulated version? John Isherwood. I believe they were, John, and reasonably accurate as well, which wasn't always the case. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, cctransuk said: Were the Cartic and Freightliner bogies one and the same - with a twin pivot added for the Cartic articulated version? John Isherwood. John Certainly look similar https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightlinercontainer/e11e9c62a and https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/matcartic4/e5ca1ef86 I'll admit I am surprised that a good modern model of the Cartics hasn't been produced. Numerous with numerous liveries, various late conversions and long lives. Plenty of play appeal and could be imagined as operating to almost any yard with a temporary loading facility https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/carramp https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=cartic Paul Edited August 18, 2020 by hmrspaul 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 18, 2020 Author Share Posted August 18, 2020 3 hours ago, roythebus said: I had/may still have mine. I bough them many years ago and tried modifying one of the end cars to make a centre car. I'm certain I've got a built up spare bogie somewhere. Back in 1982-ish I got a bit of "industrial injury" money from BR (another story) and used the money to pay Ks (by that time in Banbury) to make a kit for the new VGA wagon in plastic. While I was at their factory I asked Melvin Keyser about the Cartic. He told me the history of them which Hayfield details above and he showed me the original moulds I asked him about doing a run of them as there was a lot of interest there in the current "modern image" stock. The moulds were very basic being made from brass and not designed for a long life. He tried a couple of test mouldings for me but reckoned they were not worth proceeding with. I contacted Hornby about supplying their plastic Cartic bogies and they would have quite happily make a run if I wanted 5,000 of them. But with the Ks moulds being beyond further use I decided not to proceed with that project and carried on with the VGA kit which sold about 5000 I think. I still have the receipt for the moulds somewhere. I can't remember what buffers were used on the Ks Cartic, if I find mine I'll let you know. I've got 3 Black 5s in various stages of build, a Beyer-Peacock tank, an Adams Radial and a Q1 in bits if anyone's interested. Maybe a couple of LMS 2-6-4T locos too. I'm having to clear out a lot of part-built things. Roy I would happily buy the bogie from you if its spare and the dimensions of the buffer beam would be useful,please let me know when you plan to sell the Beyer Peacock tank, I might be interested Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 1 hour ago, hmrspaul said: John Certainly look similar https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightlinercontainer/e11e9c62a and https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/matcartic4/e5ca1ef86 I'll admit I am surprised that a good modern model of the Cartics hasn't been produced. Numerous with numerous liveries, various late conversions and long lives. Plenty of play appeal and could be imagined as operating to almost any yard with a temporary loading facility https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/carramp https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=cartic Paul Paul, Thanks for pointing me to those two photos - much appreciated. It is particularly interesting to see the vacuum and air pipes fixed to the bogie frame, with flexible connections to the bodies. That'll be 'interesting' to reproduce in model form! Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 4 hours ago, cctransuk said: Were the Cartic and Freightliner bogies one and the same - with a twin pivot added for the Cartic articulated version? John Isherwood. The Tri-ang Cartic centre bogie is a standard Freightliner bogie. The coupling for the two outer wagons Is a simple loop. The centre bogie has a bolster that clips into the pivot hole on the bogie, with two pins, one each side, to fit the loops. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 Hi Folks, Here is my Cartic-4 that I built from an as yet stalled project to produce a kit / scratch building aid. The wagons are built from laser cut plastic and I had them made up at York Modelmaking about eighteen months ago. For bogies, @TangoOscarMike had some 3d printed up by Shapeways, I'm sure that he would assist you should you want some. I was just about to restart the project in March but the lock-down and a lack of spare money put pay to that. There are minor detail alterations to the kit to be made and I also needed a source for etched brass for the handrails, ladders and gratings. Gibbo. 7 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 (edited) Yes the Triang model used standard Freightliner bogies. Re vacuum brakes, were the Cartics ever dual braked? As far as I'm aware they were through piped for vacuum but not fitted. There doesn't appear to be room under them for a vacuum brake cylinder. You can certainly see air tanks under them in Paul Bartlett's photos. The vac pipes visible on the end have the metal pipes painted white indicating a through pipe. when I built my Ks Cartic back in the day I used a very fine chain for the safety rails which is what they were on the prototype. Where I worked in a model and toy shop very fine chain was available for ship models. I may still have some of that around as well! Edited August 18, 2020 by roythebus 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 4 hours ago, hayfield said: Roy I would happily buy the bogie from you if its spare and the dimensions of the buffer beam would be useful,please let me know when you plan to sell the Beyer Peacock tank, I might be interested Thanks Than't fine John, I'll let you know when I find them. I'm certain the bogie is somewhere close to hand. I've seen it in the last few months. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 11 hours ago, roythebus said: Yes the Triang model used standard Freightliner bogies. Re vacuum brakes, were the Cartics ever dual braked? As far as I'm aware they were through piped for vacuum but not fitted. There doesn't appear to be room under them for a vacuum brake cylinder. You can certainly see air tanks under them in Paul Bartlett's photos. The vac pipes visible on the end have the metal pipes painted white indicating a through pipe. when I built my Ks Cartic back in the day I used a very fine chain for the safety rails which is what they were on the prototype. Where I worked in a model and toy shop very fine chain was available for ship models. I may still have some of that around as well! I've never seen any references for vacuum brakes on a Cartic; I'm not sure I've even seen vac-pipes. Incidentally, the last examples in service, operated by STVA, had the upper deck removed, allowing them to carry higher vehicles to be carried; they were used for a brief while on the 'Land-Rover' trains through the Channel Tunnel. Here's a link to some photos of them on Ford traffic:- https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/UKRailRollingstock/P-Tops-codes/PJA-STVA-Cartic-4-single-level/ 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PaulCheffus Posted August 19, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 19, 2020 Hi The caption on this photo would suggest no vacuum brake on the cartic https://flic.kr/p/axQNw4 Cheers Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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