Jump to content

Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches


Recommended Posts

My main grouse about both the Hattons and Hornby 4 wheelers (I have no more than a passing interest in 6 wheelers) is that the Brake vehicles in both cases are based on the LBSCR  Stroudley 'balloon' brakes which had the duckets right at the end of the coach.  Of course there is no problem with this if one is making an LBSCR Stroudley 'balloon' brake,, but this style was unique to Stroudley and is therefore an issue if one produces GW, GN, NB, LNW, LSW and so on brake coaches to this pattern which are clearly and absolutely wrong even if one is prepared to accept all thirds, composites, or all firsts that look reasonably like the coaches they are intended to represent.  The balloon duckets scream Stroudley at you and prevent your accepting them as anything else, 

 

The back story is a bit odd; we first heard of Hattons' 'Genesis' project, which has clearly based it's brake vehicles on Stroudley's balloons.  Then along come Hornby with what seems to have originally been an intention to make LBSCR Stroudley coaches, including the balloon brakes, that has been changed (probably by marketing) to generic coaches whose difference from the Hattons version is mostly the window/panelling profile, radiussed corners for Hornby and square corners.  What is the attraction of Stroudley coaches that has seduced two RTR commissioner/producers over larger railways such as the Midland, LNW, GW, and many others?  The Ratio 4 wheel Brake 3rd is still the only 4 wheeler passenger brake suitable for railways that are not the LBSCR, but is very firmly GW.  I'm not at all sure that the market is best served by either Hattons' or Hornbys' coaches, and Hornby do not state that they consider their coaches to be generic.  There are differences in roof, grab rail, and underframe detail that flag them up as belong to the railway whose livery they are supplied in, but the  main toolings are common across the ranges and thus by any standards generic, both of them.

 

Kudos to Hornby for their very sensible lighting, which is available seperately and which I hope will be featured on other models as well in future.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

My main grouse about both the Hattons and Hornby 4 wheelers (I have no more than a passing interest in 6 wheelers) is that the Brake vehicles in both cases are based on the LBSCR  Stroudley 'balloon' brakes which had the duckets right at the end of the coach.  Of course there is no problem with this if one is making an LBSCR Stroudley 'balloon' brake,, but this style was unique to Stroudley and is therefore an issue if one produces GW, GN, NB, LNW, LSW and so on brake coaches to this pattern which are clearly and absolutely wrong even if one is prepared to accept all thirds, composites, or all firsts that look reasonably like the coaches they are intended to represent.  The balloon duckets scream Stroudley at you and prevent your accepting them as anything else, 

 

The back story is a bit odd; we first heard of Hattons' 'Genesis' project, which has clearly based it's brake vehicles on Stroudley's balloons.  Then along come Hornby with what seems to have originally been an intention to make LBSCR Stroudley coaches, including the balloon brakes, that has been changed (probably by marketing) to generic coaches whose difference from the Hattons version is mostly the window/panelling profile, radiussed corners for Hornby and square corners.  What is the attraction of Stroudley coaches that has seduced two RTR commissioner/producers over larger railways such as the Midland, LNW, GW, and many others?  The Ratio 4 wheel Brake 3rd is still the only 4 wheeler passenger brake suitable for railways that are not the LBSCR, but is very firmly GW.  I'm not at all sure that the market is best served by either Hattons' or Hornbys' coaches, and Hornby do not state that they consider their coaches to be generic.  There are differences in roof, grab rail, and underframe detail that flag them up as belong to the railway whose livery they are supplied in, but the  main toolings are common across the ranges and thus by any standards generic, both of them.

 

Kudos to Hornby for their very sensible lighting, which is available seperately and which I hope will be featured on other models as well in future.

 

Minor point that Balloon brakes were bogie carriages, had no duckets, and were made a long time after Stroudley died

 

Actual point that the duckets on the Hattons carriages are nothing like those of Stroudley carriages, much more like LCDR ones, which not only had them on the end, but also had a similar shape to the Hattons ones (There may be other railways, the LCDR is just one I am familiar with)

 

And for your other point, there were also other railways with end duckets in a similar shape to the Stroudley carriages, for example the Highland had 4 wheelers with similar end mounted duckets, I know there are others, as I have seen pictures of them, but can't think of which railways off the top of my head (I want to say Caledonian, but I'm not sure)

 

I hope that answers both your issues.

 

Gary

  • Like 5
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, having got a Keyser whitemetal coach kit, with the ducket at the end,

I wondered if it was based on a GWR prototype, or not.

So, having checked Penrhos' excellent website, I found multiple examples

of this arrangement (T30-33, T40, 49 & T63), including a picture of the T49

preserved, and running, at Didcot.

  • Like 3
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

Hmm, having got a Keyser whitemetal coach kit, with the ducket at the end,

I wondered if it was based on a GWR prototype, or not.

So, having checked Penrhos' excellent website, I found multiple examples

of this arrangement (T30-33, T40, 49 & T63), including a picture of the T49

preserved, and running, at Didcot.

 

I didn't realise the GWR had carriages with end duckets as well, very interesting!

 

As for the Keyser coach kit. They made Stroudleys, I expect what you have is an LBSC D45.

 

This is one from my collection that I am currently in the process of stripping down and rebuilding with some replacement parts to improve them.

 

1306924959_2021-01-1109_50_27.jpg.10ae86c2d30d14ac84977fad078c572d.jpg

 

Gary

  • Like 4
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 05/01/2021 at 12:35, Compound2632 said:

 

The Hattons carriages were announced on 8 October 2019; @Islesy (who from previous posts I gather to be involved with Hornby's product development in some capacity) has stated above that Hornby measured up preserved carriages in the following November. 

Simon Kolher in the 2021 range Youtube video refers to them having been working on them for two years which would predate the Hattons announcement. Might it be the other way around in terms of gazumping?

Hattons getting wind of what Hornby was going to and thinking they would beat them to the market.

 

Measuring up a prototype is unlikely to be undertaken immediately  and in the case of these presumably they were after basis dimensions which would be typical of any vehicles of the time.

Edited by Butler Henderson
  • Like 1
  • Interesting/Thought-provoking 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

I may be considering purchasing one of Hattons GNR six wheelers to run with my DJH Ivatt C1 4-4-2. Should i still consider getting it?

 

Only you can tell. What you have to weigh is that neither the Hattons nor the Hornby carriages presented in GNR livery look anything like a genuine GNR carriage, though the Hattons carriages look, in general, more like carriages of the 1880s/90s. Further, by the time the Ivatt Atlantics were on the scene, the East Coast and West Riding expresses on which they were employed were largely made up of bogie carriages - including some rather magnificent 12-wheelers. I can't help feeling that if you've the skill to build a DJH locomotive kit, you have the skill to build kits of the appropriate stock, if such exist. (Paging @chris p bacon.) 

 

My understanding is that all the Ivatt Atlantics were Class C1 in Great Northern days, so is your engine the 1898 type, that the LNER called Class C2, or the 1902/4 type, LNER Class C1? And is it modelled in original condition, or at some later date? All this will affect your choice of carriages.

 

Oodles of information on GNR 6-wheeled carriages has been published by the GNR Society while for the East Coast stock of the heyday of the big Atlantics, there's Michael Harris' Oakwood Press book of 1995, which you can probably find second-hand.

  • Like 3
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Simon Kolher in the 2012 range Youtube video refers to them having been working on them for two years which would predate the Hattons announcement.

 

If it was that long ago, it would be reasonable to suppose the project had died.

  • Like 2
  • Agree 2
  • Round of applause 1
  • Funny 9
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
1 hour ago, BlueLightning said:

 

Actual point that the duckets on the Hattons carriages are nothing like those of Stroudley carriages, much more like LCDR ones, which not only had them on the end, but also had a similar shape to the Hattons ones (There may be other railways, the LCDR is just one I am familiar with)

 

 

 Hi Gary,

 

I think one of the more visible differences between these generic coaches from Hattons and Hornby is the shape of the duckets.

 

From the Hatton website it appears that all their duckets are flat topped. Those from Hornby have a curved top.

 

If modelling the early SR scene the Hornby look to be closest with the curved top duckets being fairy close representations of ex LB&SCR and SE&CR stock.

 

  • Like 2
  • Interesting/Thought-provoking 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

But as has been pointed out, that's tendentious as Maude is modelled in preserved condition. I suppose you could run the NBR liveried carriages with a J36 in early LNER livery:

 

image.png.1b6b356b3d0c98474081d6ab8fcfaf03.png

 

as some class members were used on branch passenger duties in the 1920s, according to the LNER Encyclopedia entry for the class, and it could well have been several years after the grouping before the carriages were repainted - if ever. But equally, locomotives - especially goods engines - weren't repainted overnight, either.

Edited by Compound2632
  • Like 3
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

When you think of it from a model manufacturers point of view a generic Victorian/Edwardian coach is the only way to go given the plethora of railway companies at the time each with their own style. It wouldn't surprise me if a third manufacturer threw their hat into the ring.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, adrianmc said:

 

 Hi Gary,

 

I think one of the more visible differences between these generic coaches from Hattons and Hornby is the shape of the duckets.

 

From the Hatton website it appears that all their duckets are flat topped. Those from Hornby have a curved top.

 

If modelling the early SR scene the Hornby look to be closest with the curved top duckets being fairy close representations of ex LB&SCR and SE&CR stock.

 

 

Hi Adrian,

 

Yes the shape of the duckets is what I was referring too, the flat top of the Hattons ones being much more like the LCDR duckets than anything else I am familiar with.

 

Gary

 

870873408_lcdrbrake.jpg.b0f1c392e955d79ccbb76292274b2d0d.jpg

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

If it was that long ago, it would be reasonable to suppose the project had died.

In that case virtually all of Bachmanns announcements would be considered dead, which largely is not the case.

 

Have been looking through Cheona Rly in Profile No.8 BR Engineer's Stock - 2 which has photos of a number which may or may not easily be represented by the generic offerings;

 

6-wheelers:

 

7500 ex-MR in use by Spital Bridge MPD  described as an all third but many component windows replaced by new near full height panelling. Spoked wheels (1950) [plate 45]

 

DE951550  "Motive Power Dept Trafford Park" ex MSLR three compartment brake with flat top look out ducket and end windows; Maunsell wheels (1955 dated photo) {plate 39]

 

960860 "Eng Dept / Paint Van"; ex GER five compartment brake; brake section to one end with flat top look out ducket and seems to have windows in that end. Maunsell wheels (1950s photo) [plate 6]

 

E972022 "Vacuum Dust Extractor Thornton Dist"; ex NBR Brake Second - the brake compartment is central with two passenger compartments to either side  - disc wheels (1956 dated photo) [plate 3]

 

The following 6-wheelers are all ex passenger brake vans

 

DS914S ex SEC&R; Loco Dept Mess and Tool Van at Eastleigh; Central look-out and raised roof section above; short flue added for dept use. Disc wheels (1952) [plate 61]

 

DM297291 ex GSWR in use as an Engineers staff coach at Inverness; flat top central look out ducket, end windows, central and one end Maunsell wheels; other set disc (1960)  [plate 47]

 

DE320010 "Edinburgh  Dis. Painters Plant" ex NBR with flat top look out ducket to one end. Spoked wheels (1952 dated photo) [plate 7]

 

DE320343 "Mess & Tool Van EE Hull" ex GER with curved look out ducket towards one end, end windows and Maunsell wheels  (Springhead 1963) [inside back cover]

 

DE320644 "Signal Engineers Dept York Compressor Van"; ex GNSR with just off centre curved top look out ducket - central wheel disc, outer wheels spoked (1959 dated photo) [plate 5]

 

TDM396092 ex MR dia 530A ; converted 1954 for use in a weedkilling train and subsequently a RCE staff and dormitory van for use with Guide Bridge based crane DRT812634. Disc wheels (1988 photo at Kingmoor) [plate 56]

 

Four wheelers shown (all disc wheels) are:

 

W81W, a Dean four compartment Composite "Tool Van  Oswestry Electricans"  ; stove pipe added. (Porthmadog 1958) [plate 75]

 

W14913, a five compartment all 3rd in use as Staff and Tool van based at Plymouth (Par 1958) [plate 76]

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

See also old Midland and LNWR carriages at Aston:

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwra3629.htm - the caption is wrong; it's a 29ft brake third of 1875, converted to mess van c. 1898.

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwra3627.htm - LNWR centre-luggage composite

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwra3628.htm - ditto; the boarding, in the same style as the ex-Midland mess van, probably dates from the 1920s. The Midland had continued to convert old 6-wheelers in the same style as the 1898 conversion right up to grouping; the LMS continued the conversions, using ex-LNWR carriages.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

But as has been pointed out, that's tendentious as Maude is modelled in preserved condition. I suppose you could run the NBR liveried carriages with a J36 in early LNER livery:

 

 

 

Considering that both brands of coach are a fiction, the J36 being in preserved condition does not really seem that big an issue surely?

 

Craig W

  • Like 6
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

When you think of it from a model manufacturers point of view a generic Victorian/Edwardian coach is the only way to go given the plethora of railway companies at the time each with their own style. 

 

Not really. If the manufacturer has produced a number of pre-grouping locomotives from a particular company, there could be a good business case for producing carriages (and a goods brake van) based on prototypes from that company. Unfortunately that hasn't happened, partly, I suspect, because locomotives for the two most likely suspects - SECR and LBSCR - have each been split three ways between Hornby, Bachmann, and retailers' own brands. 

Edited by Compound2632
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

In Hornbys case they are thinking of their generic 0-4-0s that probably by now have been offered in all those related liveries, Simon Kolhar makes a comment in the You Tube video of the drag of a traditional pick up arrangement for lights being likely to be  too much for 0-4-0s.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
2 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

In Hornbys case they are thinking of their generic 0-4-0s that probably by now have been offered in all those related liveries, Simon Kolhar makes a comment in the You Tube video of the drag of a traditional pick up arrangement for lights being likely to be  too much for 0-4-0s.

 

Maybe they're finally going to produce Smokey Joe in NBR livery?

  • Funny 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

The reed switch activated light system could be problematic for Kadee users with fixed magnets for the Kadees. 

its in the roof & you have to get around 20mm close to it to work Rapido have been doing this for years on there USA/Canadian coaches

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Not really. If the manufacturer has produced a number of pre-grouping locomotives from a particular company, there could be a good business case for producing carriages (and a goods brake van) based on prototypes from that company. Unfortunately that hasn't happened, partly, I suspect, because locomotives for the two most likely suspects - SECR and LBSCR - have each been split three ways between Hornby, Bachmann, and retailers' own brands. 

However it would presumably be logical that if someone is going to produce a generic coach (various) they would offer it in liveries which match locos they have done themselves?  So applying that logic - for what it's worth - Hornby would be offering LB&SCR (they do), L&SWR (they do), arguably GWR (they do). NBR (they do), GNR (they do), and SE&CR (they don't) but are offering L&NWR for which they have never done a loco .   The Post-Group liveries sensibly align with locos they have done in the past or offer currently.

 

So to my mind SE&CR seems a strange omission from the launch range while L&NWR (which looks rather odd colour wise in the illustrations I've seen)  stands out as an odd inclusion when you relate it to their wider range.  

  • Like 2
  • Interesting/Thought-provoking 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
12 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

However it would presumably be logical that if someone is going to produce a generic coach (various) they would offer it in liveries which match locos they have done themselves?  So applying that logic - for what it's worth - Hornby would be offering LB&SCR (they do), L&SWR (they do), arguably GWR (they do). NBR (they do), GNR (they do), and SE&CR (they don't) but are offering L&NWR for which they have never done a loco .   The Post-Group liveries sensibly align with locos they have done in the past or offer currently.

 

So to my mind SE&CR seems a strange omission from the launch range while L&NWR (which looks rather odd colour wise in the illustrations I've seen)  stands out as an odd inclusion when you relate it to their wider range.  

 

I was surprised they didnt do them in Caledonian livery - arguably thats the biggest omission from Hattons batches 1&2.

 

Although there are some who would argue that Hornby's version of LNWR livery looks more like CR coach livery ;)

  • Like 1
  • Agree 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

OTOH, Bachmann produce several accurate LNWR liveried locos but no passenger coaches for them to pull, so there is an open opportunity for others to exploit this without having to produce locomotives, hence the Hattons and Hornby generic coaches in LNWR livery; they are being made anyway and the cost of providing some in another livery is low, and even if you are encouraging people to buy the Bachmann locos, these are not in direct competition with any of your products.  
 

I’d like to say the market abhors a vacuum, but this would be wrong, otherwise someone would have provided a decent GW 5 planker, or almost any cattle wagon, by now. 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.