Coaling stage gradient

[TomJ]

Looking at the traditional GWR coaling stage how steep would the ramp up to it typically be? And how many wagons at a time would a loco propel up it?

 

Similar to this - how would a medium sized depot get its coal? Would it be a dedicated block train or frequent drops of a wagon or two from passing goods?

 

Thanks

[KeithMacdonald]

There's a good image of the GWR Leamington Shed coaling stage here

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls2200.htm

[doilum]

Just a reminder. In the real world ( no flat baseboards) the third dimension goes both up and down. It is thus possible to split the difference between the two lines and reduce the necessary gradient. I have no real knowledge or interest in things great Western but many of the typical LNER coal drops had minimal gradient as the road access was lowered to suit. That said, the landsale drops at both Whitwood and Glasshoughton collieries were of train set proportions and a loco often struggled with two fully loaded 20 ton hoppers.

Edited February 1, 2021 by doilum
Predictive text error

[doilum]

8 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

There's a good image of the GWR Leamington Shed coaling stage here

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls2200.htm

That is fearsome! Must be at least 1:24 even allowing for the foreshortening effect of the camera.

[KeithMacdonald]

1 minute ago, doilum said:

That is fearsome! Must be at least 1:24 even allowing for the foreshortening effect of the camera.

 

Yes, I was wondering about that as well. What would be the best way of measuring distances from that picture?

e.g. number of sleepers on the siding (below the shed) and assuming a standard-sized pitch from one sleeper to the next.

[doilum]

4 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Yes, I was wondering about that as well. What would be the best way of measuring distances from that picture?

e.g. number of sleepers on the siding (below the shed) and assuming a standard-sized pitch from one sleeper to the next.

Sounds like a plan. My instant guesstimate was based on the length of the points. This would have given a ridiculous 1:12 so I doubled it!

[Kris]

Looking at the old maps (1:2500 scale) of the area and scaling from a known size (the coal stage in this case) it would appear that the slope is covers a distance of about 180ft. If the track raises 12ft (a pure guess) in this space you are looking at 1:15. 

[doilum]

2 minutes ago, Kris said:

Looking at the old maps (1:2500 scale) of the area and scaling from a known size (the coal stage in this case) it would appear that the slope is covers a distance of about 180ft. If the track raises 12ft (a pure guess) in this space you are looking at 1:15. 

I wasn't that far off with the first guess!

[doilum]

The question is: when reality was ridiculous, do we model it faithfully?  

[TomJ]

Will it partly depend on whether one plans to actually operate it and what our model locos can manage?

[Kris]

Barrow hill shed would use 11 wagons at a time apparently. So if your locos can push 8 or so up you should be okay. Stopping them running back down the slope could be equally as important as the slope continued beyond the shed. 

[Siberian Snooper]

There's still an operational GW coaling stage at Didcot. There's a couple of options as I see it, 1st is to wait until the pandemic has abated sufficiently for us to be allowed out to play, or use Google Earth and the ruler tool and get an estimate from that, I assume that you know the stage height from rail level. I would have a go myself, but my laptop is currently playing up. The space available for wagons stored on top, would depend on how busy the shed was.

 

 

[Grovenor]

8 hours ago, Kris said:

 Stopping them running back down the slope could be equally as important as the slope continued beyond the shed. 

But beyond the shed would be a much gentler gradient, just enough to let the wagons roll gently into the shed when the brake was released. Its getting the empties out where the problem comes, the brakes would need to be on really hard to hold them on the grade. Often there was a catch point near the bottom of the slope to deal with any that escaped.

[TomJ]

That’s a great suggestion using Google Earth measuring. Option 1 isn’t likely to be useful for a while - esp as I live in Yorkshire!

 

So the rail-height of the N gauge coaling stage is 28mm - so 14ft. Using the measuring I make the ramp approx 200ft. Which is about 1 in 14. Very close to everyone else's suggestions!
 

Thanks everyone 
 

 

[adriank]

E. Lyons 'An historical survey of Great Western Sheds 1947' states on page 21, "The ramp was generally 1 in 35 approaching the stage and levelled off to 1 in 80 for about 100 feet beyond the stage."

 

The book contains several photographs of coaling stages and a set of scale drawings.

 

Adrian

[Steamport Southport]

9 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

There's still an operational GW coaling stage at Didcot. There's a couple of options as I see it, 1st is to wait until the pandemic has abated sufficiently for us to be allowed out to play, or use Google Earth and the ruler tool and get an estimate from that, I assume that you know the stage height from rail level. I would have a go myself, but my laptop is currently playing up. The space available for wagons stored on top, would depend on how busy the shed was.

 

 

 

Would you need to do that seeing as the drawings are in the ET Lyons Engine Shed book?

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/historical-survey-Great-Western-engine/dp/0902888161

 

ISTR there was drawings and details of other GWR coal stages in GWJ and other sources. I think there was also a previous thread with details on the forum (possibly in the GWR section).

 

 

Regarding the ground. It would be flat as a pancake.

 

How many wagons for a smallish shed like Didcot? Enough to fill 50 or 60 tender locomotives as well as any tank engines. A Prairie tank held 4 tons. Not just allocated locomotives but ones that need refuelling.

 

7 tons of coal for each tender is a lot of wagons. That's every day. 

 

 

Jason

[KeithMacdonald]

How did they get the coal into the wheeled tubs?

Machinery or brute force?

e.g.

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/425/the-coal-stage

and

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1389009

[Kris]

1 hour ago, KeithMacdonald said:

How did they get the coal into the wheeled tubs?

Machinery or brute force?

e.g.

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/425/the-coal-stage

and

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1389009

Brute force. Labour was cheap, shovels were cheap.

[LNER4479]

FWIW 1-in-14 was the steepest adhesion worked gradient on the GB rail system (Hopton incline on the Cromford & High Peak Railway, closed 1967). So it is a practical incline (just!) for a steam loco to shove a few wagons up. Smokebox leading strongly recommended incidentally to ensure the firebox crown remains well covered up such a steep incline.

 

There were some spectacular coaling stage ramps in certain parts of the world

https://za.pinterest.com/pin/442337994626832582/

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

How did they get the coal into the wheeled tubs?

Machinery or brute force?

e.g.

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/425/the-coal-stage

and

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1389009

 

There was a previous thread on the workings of them with loads of detailed photos of the insides by someone who is a volunteer at Didcot. I think it was in the GWR section.

 

 

Jason

[LNER4479]

4 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

How did they get the coal into the wheeled tubs?

Machinery or brute force?

 

Like this:

 

[Steamport Southport]

I don't think this is the thread I meant, but some good shots here.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65644-gwr-coaling-stage/

[pH]

5 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

FWIW 1-in-14 was the steepest adhesion worked gradient on the GB rail system (Hopton incline on the Cromford & High Peak Railway, closed 1967). So it is a practical incline (just!) for a steam loco to shove a few wagons up. Smokebox leading strongly recommended incidentally to ensure the firebox crown remains well covered up such a steep incline.

There was a line in Scotland with a (very slightly) steeper gradient - the Overton paper mill branch from Berryards Junction at Upper Greenock station on the Caledonian’s Greenock and Wemyss Bay Railway. The branch was about a mile long, the average gradient was 1 in 30, and the steepest part is given as 1 in 13.

 

[doilum]

12 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Would you need to do that seeing as the drawings are in the ET Lyons Engine Shed book?

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/historical-survey-Great-Western-engine/dp/0902888161

 

ISTR there was drawings and details of other GWR coal stages in GWJ and other sources. I think there was also a previous thread with details on the forum (possibly in the GWR section).

 

 

Regarding the ground. It would be flat as a pancake.

 

How many wagons for a smallish shed like Didcot? Enough to fill 50 or 60 tender locomotives as well as any tank engines. A Prairie tank held 4 tons. Not just allocated locomotives but ones that need refuelling.

 

7 tons of coal for each tender is a lot of wagons. That's every day. 

 

 

Jason

A wise man (JMB ass. Chief examiner for geography) told me never to use the F word. Bar the Great salt lakes, Polders and a few parts of the Fens, there are very few places on God's earth that are flat. Almost level, gently undulating, not hilly, but definitely not flat. 

Railway companies may have engineered zero gradient sections for sidings and water troughs but the land around them was varied to a greater or lesser extent.

This isn't about the pedantry of marking exam scripts, it lies at the heart of all the truly great model railways.

[JZ]

FWIW, I thought I'd chuck this in. The coaling stage in Sargents Colorado.