Preorder email

[RyanN91]

Well that's all mine now cancelled bemused I think I could say I feel! I totally sympathise with every single other person and retailers who has had their pre-orders cancelled as well! I ordered mine on the announcement dates of 2020 and 2021.  

 

it is strange how I ordered the 7 car APT-P with the 4 additional SKUs on the announcement date of 6 January 2020. 

to have that ordered cancelled will undoubtedly lead to puzzling reasons floating around your mind which we cannot devolve into for whatever reason. The thing that is strange is that shortly after the 2020 range was announced all of their allocated stock was sold out however in June 2020 or whenever it was a curtesy auto email was sent out, that the retailer had acquired more stock of both APT-Ps the five car and the seven car train packs with the additional 8 SKU pack sets also again available,

 

So to have mine cancelled is very disappointing but the strange thing is i placed an order for the Coronation Scot coaches when their curtesy email was sent out that they had acquired more stock for them in mid 2020 or whenever it was so I placed an order then and now I have a set of 6 of them.  

 

Unfortunately it is just one of those things I guess. Although it is extremely disappointing.

 

Disclaimer: No way am in this post am I  diverting blame to Hornby or individual independent retailers etc.  

[64F]

If Hornby have just fallen out with Hattons over some trading issue then that is annoying for those of us who have had our pre-orders cancelled, but ultimately a private business matter affecting one trader.  However, if they have indeed introduced a tier system that restricts supply to a small number of (undeclared to the customers) favourite dealers at the expense of a swathe of other retailers including many of the struggling smaller shops, then I think that would be very bad for the hobby and, in the long term, for Hornby themselves.  It would also be pretty disgraceful to do this mid-year and retrospectively, when many of their most loyal customers have had pre-orders in since January (or indeed January 2020) and now have to search around for a new supplier whilst hoping that the one we pick is one of the lucky few who are actually going to get the supplies they need.  Surely the time to announce big changes to how they allocate products would be prior to an annual range announcement, rather than pulling the rug out mid-year on items that have been on order for up to 18 months.  There will be plenty of people who decide not to renew their pre-orders at all.

[aaron3820]

And with that, the final lot of pre-orders I had with Hattons have been canned. All were pre-ordered the day they went live on the website. What’s the bet after the models are released they’ll have plenty of stock showing on the website for people to buy...

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

7 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

The standard clause for this sort of situation will be found deep in the T&Cs and will read something like:

 

Our contract to supply will be concluded at the point of shipment of a confirmed [ by us] quantity to you our customer. 

 

In other words you will only get what we decide we can or want to supply you and there is no come back.

 

That sort of clause is perfectly reasonable when it is there to prevent the supplier from being sued when a delivery is not made due to some overarching reason. As Hornby no longer manufactures, that could well include them being let down by the producer in China.

 

But that is not the case here. Hornby has cancelled orders at a late date despite having stock to sell direct. I am fairly sure that what we are seeing here is Hornby having underestimated the number that it could sell direct and pulling back stock from retailers so that they can sell at full price. If that is the best business model for Hornby, fine they should do it. But they should not expect to be able to do both./

 

As I and others have said in this thread, this type of action will simply kill off the retailers and Hornby are naive if they don't realise the damage it will cause to their own business.

 

Whatever the T&Cs say, I think that this is actionable and all the retailers should get together to consult "learned friends".

 

The other way out of the situation is for all the retailers to get together to commission a range of products to simply replace what they currently buy from Hornby. Some could be done quite quickly, e.g. 37s and 47s from VI Trains.

[MGR Hooper!]

9 hours ago, col.stephens said:

Hornby Southern 6-Wheeled coaches cancelled by Hattons.

 

I am going to email Hornby asking what their game is.  Might I suggest everyone else does the same?

 

Terry

 

8 hours ago, Legend said:

Might  be better sending to Simon Kohler as it seems the issue is Hornby 

I agree, a direct email to Simon Kohler will be far more affective. We emailed him, we asked about the situation and we got a long and detailed reply explaining the whole thing.

Each individual can form their own opinion about it. Whilst I agree with Simon as to why Hornby have changed their allocation strategy, I don't think the way they've gone about doing it was the right way. And what they're doing isn't illegal.

But yes, I urge anyone who is upset about this and who feels this is bad business practices to email Simon Kohler direct and have a word with him.

[Joseph_Pestell]

8 hours ago, Dominion said:

I just had all 10 Hornby pre-order locos cancelled, and all my rolling stock too. Almost all were ordered on the very first day of announcement.  

 

For international customers ordering from Hornby is prohibitively expensive. Not only is the raw price higher, but the postage is 3 times higher than from a regular shop, and they ship in a way that causes extra tax collections here than normal.

All told it is a 60 pounds more expensive than from a proper retailer for one loco. SIXTY pounds ! That is a huge amount of wasted money that does not even stay within the model business.

 

This is supposed to be a fun hobby, a relaxing pastime.  This situation is causing a lot of their customers I suspect a lot of unnecessary angst.  For all those in a similar situation I empathize.

If anyone has Simon Kohler's email address I would love to know it.

Tom

 

I am no great fan of Simon Kohler. But I doubt that he is responsible for this fiasco.

 

[MGR Hooper!]

11 hours ago, AY Mod said:

Any cancellation of pre-orders doesn't appear to be due to any overselling by Hattons, I've spoken to Hattons before and they've clarified that they do not pre-sell over the quantities they have on order. 

 

This is evidently down to non-delivery of orders placed with the supplier. 

Thank you for clearing that up Andy. But didn't Hattons themselves say (on rmweb IIRC) that they do generally sell a few more than their allocation? Unless I am wrong or if my memory failed me? But I do remember seeing a post from Hattons Dave about Hattons regularly selling a few more that their pre-order allocation.

[Tony Teague]

If I want to complain about something I have a look at https://www.ceoemail.com/ and whilst the CEO rarely responds personally he or she usually has someone who deals with such complaints promptly.

I have used it 3 or 4 times with different organisations in various sectors and it has yielded results.

Whether it will help if a major policy decision has been reached is a different matter - but may be worth exploring.

[Amand]

12 hours ago, Monkey28 said:

 

If this is the case then surely that would be illegal? And anti-competitive. To be honest I'm not happy  Hornby’s business practices 

 

It's no different to the way finance companies "credit score" people when determining wha deals they get on interest rates, whether a lion is approved to not etc. If Hattons have done something their contract with Hornby forbids them from doing then they aren't going to get the best deal. Making the same model, wholesaling stock to the trade (either their own or Hornby's) would cause friction.

 

Whatever Hattons did in the past resulted it in them no longer receiving supplies of Bachmann products. Hornby may be looking at the same behaviour but not going as far as cancelling their account. Hattons may only be allowed to order items in Hornby's warehouse that have not been allocated to other traders. Given they frenzy over new products there's probably not much to choose from?

[spamcan61]

3 minutes ago, col.stephens said:

So effectively, to use the current language of the Loony Left, Hattons has been 'cancelled' by the big manufacturers.  No Bachmann and no Hornby.  Which retailer will be the next victim of big business I wonder?

 

Terry

Rails of Sheffield have entered the chat.

[ruggedpeak]

Just had confimration from TMC that the NR DVT and other yellow items I pre-ordered are in stock. All are also on the Hornby website, despite reportedly being cancelled elsewhere.

 

No idea what is going on but for loyal customers trying to spend significant amounts of money it is a bit of a fiasco so far. Hornby's silence is not the way to treat customers.

[Legend]

3 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

That sort of clause is perfectly reasonable when it is there to prevent the supplier from being sued when a delivery is not made due to some overarching reason. As Hornby no longer manufactures, that could well include them being let down by the producer in China.

 

But that is not the case here. Hornby has cancelled orders at a late date despite having stock to sell direct. I am fairly sure that what we are seeing here is Hornby having underestimated the number that it could sell direct and pulling back stock from retailers so that they can sell at full price. If that is the best business model for Hornby, fine they should do it. But they should not expect to be able to do both./

 

As I and others have said in this thread, this type of action will simply kill off the retailers and Hornby are naive if they don't realise the damage it will cause to their own business.

 

Whatever the T&Cs say, I think that this is actionable and all the retailers should get together to consult "learned friends".

 

The other way out of the situation is for all the retailers to get together to commission a range of products to simply replace what they currently buy from Hornby. Some could be done quite quickly, e.g. 37s and 47s from VI Trains.

 

What I find particularly distasteful is the way Hattons appear to have been thrown under a bus.

 

Hattons is a well established model shop. Its been around for as long as I can remember . It bought up surplus Hornby Dublo back in the 60s and sold it over the years . In the recent past I think it bought a lot of surplus stock from Hornby which it then sold off . So a company that has supported Hornby over the years (although the link between current Hornby and Hornby Dublo is contrived in the extreme , both in models , and now apparently management style ) is being rewarded by apparently being in "Tier 3" where you might get scraps if it suits Hornby.

 

Hattons was my first pre order (1976 Hornby catalogue!) and I have used them ever since , along with other retailers . They were among the first , along with RailMail , I remember from the seventies to offer discounts . The service is fantastic , they have made model railways more affordable ,and I'm sure they've helped many people get into model railways over the years 

 

So this is their reward?  This must be significantly damaging business and reputation .  If I were them I'd be taking advice as to possible remedies . 

 

As Joseph points out above , maybe this will provoke retailers to get together and form a company to commission models that they can now sell , after all thats all effectively Hornby is , just a commissioner. Two of the biggest have now been affected by Hornby . Together they are a sizeable force in model railways. If they got together to form a mega commissioner , and produce a range of products in competition to Hornby , who knows they could even form an alliance with some of the new boys , or even Peco to offer track systems and trainsets . They would be forced to act to protect their business .

 

I really wonder if Hornby have thought through the long term consequences for short term expediency .  Frankly given the decisions made so far , I'm not sure theres a plan at all , just a series of ad hoc decisions  .   I used to think Model Railways was Hornby and the hobby, especially those of us into rtr would suffer if it was no longer there . But the way the company is being managed now I'm not so sure.

 

And as to these retailers who have their preorders satisfied this year , with mail orders/ pre orders transferring from Hattons , how do you know that next year Hornby wont view you as serious threat to their direct business , and you may well be the new Tier 3  !  Placing orders in January is apparently no guarantee of supply . 

 

I have a feeling, from a seemingly insignificant series of emails , that this could amplify and be one of the turning points in the UK model railway hobby .   Wish Pat Hammond would write about this . A best seller !

Edited May 20, 2021 by Legend

[Ighten]

Do we actually know if this has anything to do with anything other than the current situation though.. Container costs are rocket high - Hornby are splitting orders and production runs  downward to fill less metric case space in a container and each retailer is feeling this passed on..

 

Its surely going to effect those retailers who pre ordered vastly higher volumes more than those who pre ordered nominal quantities

[Ighten]

49 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

That is really interesting, I bought a Princess class loco and City of Salford loco off them for a similar price, which I couldn't understand as nobody is selling these models at those prices.

Dont those tend to come direct from Hornby and the price drops if the retailer has activated the price algorithm on Amazons Marketplace

[Robin Brasher]

I have been a customer of Hattons since I bought some Hornby Dublo Pullmans from them in 1966 for about 15 shillings each when the retail price was about 19 shillings.  In the model railway magazines Hattons never used to advertise anything unless it was in stock.  Hattons would not take pre-orders as they said it was an administrative nightmare but they must have changed this policy somewhere down the line.

 

Over the last couple of years I have been ordering model railway items from the Swanage Railway shop as I get a 10% discount from them as a premier life member and the profits go to a good cause and to my surprise I did get a Rocket set from them. Perhaps Hornby is giving the Swanage Shop priority over Hattons.  When Simon Kohler gave our model railway club a talk he said that the discounts Hattons were giving were unsustainable and he seemed particularly disappointed about Hattons selling the new Pullmans for £25 each. If Hattons has paid Hornby for the models I don't know why Hornby should be worried about how much Hattons should sell them for.

[ruggedpeak]

3 minutes ago, Ighten said:

Dont those tend to come direct from Hornby and the price drops if the retailer has activated the price algorithm on Amazons Marketplace

its the model railway equivalent of a stock market "flash crash"!

 

Algoritm triggers perception of stock clearance fire sale. Hence the need to communicate with customers. 

[stovepipe]

9 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

If Hattons has paid Hornby for the models I don't know why Hornby should be worried about how much Hattons should sell them for.

 

If Hattons are selling a significant percentage of the market this way, and with free postage potentially, you could see why Hornby wouldn't want the market distorted by this degree. It squeezes out the little guys, who have to wait for Hattons to clear their stock, before they a chance of a sale close to SRP.

[CUCKOO LINE]

37 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

What I find particularly distasteful is the way Hattons appear to have been thrown under a bus.

 

Hattons is a well established model shop. Its been around for as long as I can remember . It bought up surplus Hornby Dublo back in the 60s and sold it over the years . In the recent past I think it bought a lot of surplus stock from Hornby which it then sold off . So a company that has supported Hornby over the years (although the link between current Hornby and Hornby Dublo is contrived in the extreme , both in models , and now apparently management style ) is being rewarded by apparently being in "Tier 3" where you might get scraps if it suits Hornby.

 

Hattons was my first pre order (1976 Hornby catalogue!) and I have used them ever since , along with other retailers . They were among the first , along with RailMail , I remember from the seventies to offer discounts . The service is fantastic , they have made model railways more affordable ,and I'm sure they've helped many people get into model railways over the years 

 

So this is their reward?  This must be significantly damaging business and reputation .  If I were them I'd be taking advice as to possible remedies . 

 

As Joseph points out above , maybe this will provoke retailers to get together and form a company to commission models that they can now sell , after all thats all effectively Hornby is , just a commissioner. Two of the biggest have now been affected by Hornby . Together they are a sizeable force in model railways. If they got together to form a mega commissioner , and produce a range of products in competition to Hornby , who knows they could even form an alliance with some of the new boys , or even Peco to offer track systems and trainsets . They would be forced to act to protect their business .

 

I really wonder if Hornby have thought through the long term consequences for short term expediency .  Frankly given the decisions made so far , I'm not sure theres a plan at all , just a series of ad hoc decisions  .   I used to think Model Railways was Hornby and the hobby, especially those of us into rtr would suffer if it was no longer there . But the way the company is being managed now I'm not so sure.

 

And as to these retailers who have their preorders satisfied this year , with mail orders/ pre orders transferring from Hattons , how do you know that next year Hornby wont view you as serious threat to their direct business , and you may well be the new Tier 3  !  Placing orders in January is apparently no guarantee of supply . 

 

I have a feeling, from a seemingly insignificant series of emails , that this could amplify and be one of the turning points in the UK model railway hobby .   Wish Pat Hammond would write about this . A best seller !

It definitely could do with some investigative journalism but unless someone can get one of the tabloids involved I guess that is unlikely, but all in all seems to be a rather negative outcome for a Hornby that seems to have an upturn from lockdown

[CUCKOO LINE]

2 minutes ago, stovepipe said:

 

If Hattons are selling a significant percentage of the market this way, and with free postage potentially, you could see why Hornby wouldn't want the market distorted by this degree. It squeezes out the little guys, who have to wait for Hattons to clear their stock, before they a chance of a sale close to SRP.

But its not obvious that Hattons are selling for less than others that seem unaffected. Rails were offering free postage with preorders which may have been seen as extra discount.

[stovepipe]

3 minutes ago, CUCKOO LINE said:

But its not obvious that Hattons are selling for less than others that seem unaffected. Rails were offering free postage with preorders which may have been seen as extra discount.

 

I was specifically replying about the Pullmans quoted above, but I guess it would depend on a traders' behaviour across the board. When companies acquire a large market share, there is a tendency to 'push' the envelope in various ways. With the boom in online sales, and Rails out of the picture, you can imagine Hattons have hoovered up even more market share over the last 12 months, than they had before, which perhaps Hornby see as a direct threat to their existence?

[APOLLO]

11 hours ago, Dominion said:

I see Amazon UK is selling Thane of Fife for 134-135 pounds. Earlier in this thread some people had their Thane of Fife Preorders cancelled at Hattons.  That seems like a poor distribution strategy to me. Tom

 

Thanks for the heads up, I've just ordered one via my daughters Amazon prime A/C - delivery by 10pm tonight also. Quite a bargain . I notice that the price has risen slightly on the eight remaining.

 

Strange strategies at play.

 

Brit15

[johndon]

50 minutes ago, Ighten said:

Its surely going to effect those retailers who pre ordered vastly higher volumes more than those who pre ordered nominal quantities

 

Not necessarily, my local model shop had just 10 (certainly not a vast quantity by any stretch of the imagination) W1s on pre order and has been told he's only getting 1.

 

[Legend]

5 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

Thanks for the heads up, I've just ordered one via my daughters Amazon prime A/C - delivery by 10pm tonight also. Quite a bargain . I notice that the price has risen slightly on the eight remaining.

 

Strange strategies at play.

 

Brit15

 

There should be only 7 available now . I went for free postage , being a cheapskate 

 

And I realise I've just fallen into the trap of ordering direct!!!! 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Legend

[MikeParkin65]

25 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

Thanks for the heads up, I've just ordered one via my daughters Amazon prime A/C - delivery by 10pm tonight also. Quite a bargain . I notice that the price has risen slightly on the eight remaining.

 

Strange strategies at play.

 

Brit15

A bargain so long as Hornby aren’t trying to shift on some of the many substandard examples of these models. 

[APOLLO]

2 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

A bargain so long as Hornby aren’t trying to shift on some of the many substandard examples of these models. 

 

If there's 'owt wrong it will be straight back to Amazon !! 

 

Brit15