1950's Birmingham New Street - turntable and other scratchbuilds in N gauge

[Royal42]

Hello all,

I am about to venture into building a turntable in N scale, plus other items that would be found at Birmingham New Street Station during the 1950's and early 1960's.  I have since been advised the the turntable was a 50ft well-type structure and am looking for any plans or schematics for one. 

If anyone has knowledge or information of the early 20th Century station  layout then I would be grateful to here about it.  I used to go train spotting at New Street during the period I mentioned and I plan to make a diorama  of the station.  This would obviously be a large enterprise; therefore, I intend to start with the West end section incorporating the junction of Hill St, Navigation St and Queen's Drive.  Much of this has changed following two major rebuilds over the years and so I could do with help and advice, including images and schematices, if anyone has anything like that available please.

cheers,
Mike

Note:  this text has been re-written and updated since first posting on another forum.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Royal42
Title changed to reflect scratchbuilding.

[Tony Cane]

The Airfix turntable is a GWR style example as per the drawing here

 

[Royal42]

Thanks Tony, that's perfect.

 

I have made a start with the base.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Tony Cane said:

The Airfix turntable is a GWR style example as per the drawing here

 

 

Based on "a GWR style example as per the drawing here"; the Airfix kit is precisely 12" / 305mm. long - I've just measured the unbuilt components of an original Airfix kit.

 

So, the kit is for a 75ft., (or thereabouts), turntable.

 

John Isherwood.

[Royal42]

That matches my overlay on Google Earth and it means I'm on the right track. Pun not intentional.

Mike

[john new]

They did vary quite a bit. A GWR one is good if you are modelling the GWR but might well scream wrong to the knowledgeable if used for another company’s facility. I can’t advise further as I only know enough to notice they aren’t the same, for instance some I have seen in videos recently have side spokes (for want of a better word) but not the why and where for of which company had what style. The Airfix one is, for example, very different from the one still extant at Yeovil Junction which makes sense as that depot is ex-LSWR/Southern.

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by john new
Added note about Yeovil.

[RichardT]

4 hours ago, Royal42 said:

Does anyone here know whether British turntables, at mainline stations etc., were to a standard size and shape;

Hi Mike

In a word - no. Sorry.  

 

In terms of size, turntables started off small & then grew as locos got larger!

 

But smaller turntables were not always replaced (e.g. the smaller turntable at a branch terminus might remain as only smaller locos normally worked the branch). This can give operational interest on a model railway, with larger locos which only visit occasionally (e.g. on an excursion) having to be sent off light engine to be turned elsewhere.

 

The recent superb NERA book “North Eastern Railway Engine Sheds” has a potted history of turntables on pp.5-9 including drawings and photos. Although relating to the NER, the information is relevant to most pre-grouping companies.  To quote:

”By 1850 the type of turntables we know today had arrived, and were obtained from various contractors; the favourite for the NER was Cowans, Sheldon of Carlisle...The sizes of the turntables always lagged behind the increasing wheelbases of the latest more powerful engines...Examples of lengths of turntables required for some classes of engines in LNER days:

70ft: Pacifics, W1

60ft: C9, V2

55ft: other Atlantics, 4-6-0s & 2-6-0s

50ft: most 4-4-0s

45ft: Q5, Q6

42ft 6in: J23, J26, J27...

 

Gateshead with 24 Pacifics had nothing larger than 60ft until 1957...”

 

As to style - again I’m afraid that the Airfix turntable is a relatively unusual “surface mount” design, favoured by the GWR I believe.  The vast majority of turntables had a deep open pit (6ft or so maximum, but often with a slope from the sides to aid drainage); brick/stone/concrete lined, with a centrally-pivoted twin girder bridge with the track on top of the bridge girders, not between them as per Airfix, with safety railings either side of the track.

 

Photos in books will show you what I mean better than this description!  If you’re modelling in N, the Peco turntable kit is a good start.

 

Hope that helps,

Richard T

 

[RichardT]

A couple of (deliberately) poor images from “Servicing the North Eastern Railway’s Locomotives” (another invaluable NERA publication) to illustrate my previous post. Apologies if these appear inverted - quirk of my phone.

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by RichardT

[Gordon A]

IIRC the Airfix turntable side girders consist of a series of flat surfaces, not the smooth curve of the GWR types.

To model a DWR type you will need to scratch build the side girders using one the drawing posted by Tony Cane above.

I am not aware of what turntable the Airfix kit was based on, same as the Airfix dock crane.

 

Gordon A

[RichardT]

8 hours ago, RichardT said:

Apologies if these appear inverted - quirk of my phone.

As an aside - can anyone explain why this happened?  I uploaded the photos several times from my phone photo library, and each time they uploaded rotated, even after I went into photos and “pre-rotated” them in an attempt to correct this!  I couldn’t work out if there was a way to rotate them in the forum post once uploaded.

 

RT

[Royal42]

Thanks all, some good information there.  With all the knowledgeable members here, perhaps I should be a little more specific; although I'm not sure of my own knowledge on these matters.  The turntable was situated at the western end of New Street Station, where the lines split to the LMS and LNWR sides of Queen's drive (I'm happy to be corrected on any of this).

 

The only photograph that I have managed to find is one from the Warwickshire Railways.com website and shows the turntable being demolished in 1963.

 

I did a check on Google Earth, although it wasn't present of course, and the area calculates at about 75 feet. That would match the large locomotive types that I imagine would call in at Birmingham New Street.  The turntable does show a pit but how deep I'm not sure.  If  anyone here knows anything more about this station and it's structures then I would really appreciate hearing from them.  I don't have the funds to be buying all manner of books, so I am relying on member's knowledge and advice on this.  I am also finding, for the first time, that learning about railway infrastructers can be fascinating, and somewhat addictive!

Another interesting point, that I only realised after seeing this photograph, is that the off-shoots of the turntable don't go into sheds; which is what I originally thought happened with turntables.

 

cheers,

Mike

Edited March 11, 2021 by Royal42

[Campaman]

The Airfix one is similar to the one at Minehead on the West Somerset Railway.

[john new]

3 hours ago, RichardT said:

As an aside - can anyone explain why this happened?  I uploaded the photos several times from my phone photo library, and each time they uploaded rotated, even after I went into photos and “pre-rotated” them in an attempt to correct this!  I couldn’t work out if there was a way to rotate them in the forum post once uploaded.

 

RT

When I have had the same problem I have used Photoshop to rotate and then resaved.  I am sure cheaper graphics packages will do the same job including some of the free one’s. As to cause I suspect somewhere in the image’s meta data there is a setting that picks up the original orientation of the phone/camera/scanner re the base of the image. If you don’t reset that it will always orientate to the original base.

[john new]

3 hours ago, Gordon A said:

IIRC the Airfix turntable side girders consist of a series of flat surfaces, not the smooth curve of the GWR types.

To model a DWR type you will need to scratch build the side girders using one the drawing posted by Tony Cane above.

I am not aware of what turntable the Airfix kit was based on, same as the Airfix dock crane.

 

Gordon A

Google search for GWR turntables using the images option brings up at least one GWR style with flat tops - Birmingham Snow Hill.  Link to photo here.

[RichardT]

1 hour ago, Royal42 said:

Another interesting point, that I only realised after seeing this photograph, is that the off-shoots of the turntable don't go into sheds; which is what I originally thought happened with turntables.

Correct Mike - a turntable could be used in a short-term ‘stabling’ area for locos awaiting their next turn of duty, and the roads off it in these cases would usually be open.  Some branch line termini (the ones I’m familiar with are in the north east of England) used turntables at the end of their run-round loops instead of a point, or had the turntable on either a through loop road or a dead-end spur: in these cases too the turntable exit roads were all open.  See Alston, Rothbury, Allendale Town, Wearhead, Whitby, Middleton-in-Teesdale.  (EDIT Correction - one of the roads at Rothbury did go into the loco shed.)
 

The loop or spur setup also appeared at some loco sheds: loco sheds weren’t always (or even often) fed direct from a turntable.  The roundhouse arrangement, with a segmented-circle shed fed from a open-air table, or an enclosed square shed with a central turntable(s) and roads all under cover, also existed in GB, but was not massively common.  But see Stanhope, Wear Valley Junction, Thornaby and - of course - York North (aka the NRM Great Hall.)

 

As you say, lots to find out! By the way, as well as finding images on the internet, you don’t have to spend a lot of money buying books - there are these places called “public libraries” which have good stocks of railway books and also can obtain for you (for a small fee) copies of most published works on inter-library loan.  I know lots of local libraries have closed but they are still out there!

 

Good luck with your finding out!

 

Richard

Edited March 11, 2021 by RichardT
Removing gibberish- well, some of it...

[melmerby]

Minehead from Google:

https://goo.gl/maps/wYgsYAbnZ4oW12TZ6

 

Don't think Tyseley as this is an inside shed type (There used to be a building over it!)

https://goo.gl/maps/xc1LUMdCxm4jAdbw8

[MR Chuffer]

I read somewhere that it was bad practice to have the turntable at the entrance to the loco shed on a BLT. It's mechanical and if it fails, it could trap a loco in the shed which is why you're more likely to see the turntable off a spur.

[Royal42]

41 minutes ago, RichardT said:

......you don’t have to spend a lot of money buying books -

But I already have!  For the last ten years I have been collecting and building 1:144 scale aircraft kits (hence this slight transition to N scale) and have been buying aircraft reference books.  Before that; however, I spent the previous forty-odd years spending most of my salary on collecting, building and researching merchant vessels and warships; as such, I have a vast collection of large hardback reference books on most aspects of shipping matters.  Swmbo has dictated that she will not let me do the same with our pension!!  

 

I am a hobby-researcher at heart, for every answer I get to a query, I seem to find ten more questions and these usually entail delving into lots of research material.  Nowadays, we are fortunate in having the Internet and on-line searches; however, my view is people only tend to put on-line the 'popular' images (how can we measure things from photo's if all the views are at oblique angles?)  whereas a good reference book will have so much more to offer, usually including plans.

 

I shall be off to the library, when it opens again, and also to shows; hopefully to find some cheap reference material and also tracks and points.

 

cheers,
Mike

Edited March 11, 2021 by Royal42

[Compound2632]

16 hours ago, cctransuk said:

So, the kit is for a 75ft., (or thereabouts), turntable.

 

... which is enormous. I think the largest size used in Britain was 70 ft, which was only found at places where it was necessary to turn a pacific. 60 ft became more common from the early 1900s but there were plenty of tables smaller than this - a 55 ft table could turn most mixed-traffic 4-6-0s. There were plenty of places where turntables as small as 42 ft survived - big enough to turn a 0-6-0 tender engine.

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, Campaman said:

The Airfix one is similar to the one at Minehead on the West Somerset Railway.

 

The Minehead one is VERY similar to the drawing Tony Cane posted above - but not to the Airfix kit.

 

John Isherwood.

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

... which is enormous.

 

.... but ideal for an off-scene turntable in the fiddle yard.

 

John Isherwood.

[cctransuk]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

There were plenty of places where turntables as small as 42 ft survived - big enough to turn a 0-6-0 tender engine.

 

The Airfix kit scales out at 43ft. in 7mm. scale - food for thought for that smaller branchline.

 

John Isherwood.

Edited March 11, 2021 by cctransuk

[LNER4479]

Hi,

 

The fundamental difference between the GWR style turntable and just about all the other types is that the girders that support the weight of the loco are above the table and thus obviates the need for a turntable well. The turntable at Minehead illustrates this well.

 

What you show of the remains of the facility at New Street is almost certainly the more common arrangement of girders below the table (hence the need for a well), as already highlighted above.

 

The britainfromabove website can be your friend. From a quick look, this image seems to capture the area you're interested in best:

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW006930

Zoomed in to this extent it gets a bit fuzzy but no doubt in my mind that it's the more usual 'girder below' arrangement.

 

A facility at a station like this would be for visiting locos on a 'quick turnaround' working, hence no shed building, just stabling roads. A 'home' loco would retire to its allocated shed where there would be a shed building.

 

Finally - I doubt it would be as large as 75 feet long. The longest tables in the country were 70 feet - both the Dapol (Airfix) and Peco (and the Hornby one, for that matter) ones are all longer than that. (edit - others have commented thus as I was typing this!)

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by LNER4479

[Royal42]

So many turntables, types and sizes.  Anyone know where I might get the definitive on the one at Birmingham New Street?

Interestingly, I looked at the Peco N scale turntable and the size of that is 155mm.  If my calculations are correct, that scales out at 75 feet.

 

Mike

Edited March 11, 2021 by Royal42

[Royal42]

8 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

The britainfromabove website can be your friend. From a quick look, this image seems to capture the area you're interested in best:

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW006930

Zoomed in to this extent it gets a bit fuzzy but no doubt in my mind that it's the more usual 'girder below' arrangement.

That's a great photo' and thank you for finding and posting it.  I does appear that one can see the wheels and connecting rod, unless that is the top of a steel wall??

 

The view also shows the two different platform roof types, for the different regional railways.

 

Mike

Edited March 11, 2021 by Royal42