Rapido dangles 3mm rolling stock carrot.

[whart57]

Good old British exceptionalism will make sure British outline models will not appear in 1:120. Or 1:87 or 1:160 come to that. That ship has sailed even if there was a late jumping from the dock with Lima HO many years ago.

[Dunsignalling]

The problem with introducing a new scale is that anyone brave enough to try will be pitting a new and (of necessity) limited, range of against the r-t-r cornucopia that is OO and the relative cornucopia that is N.

 

The problem with HO is that it's too close to OO to offer much in the way of space-saving and the continental version of TT at 1:120 is too close to N to offer much in the way of improved appearance.

 

British TT at 3mm/1:101 might be viable on the basis suggested, but would only really amount to "preaching to the choir" rather than making a serious appeal to newcomers.

 

What Rapido have hinted at could be a springboard for gradual expansion of TT3, but nobody should expect it to achieve mass market penetration any time soon.

 

John

 

 

[whart57]

24 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

The problem with introducing a new scale is that anyone brave enough to try will be pitting a new and (of necessity) limited, range of against the r-t-r cornucopia that is OO and the relative cornucopia that is N.

 

That cornucopia in OO does make it difficult for a relatively late entrant like Rapido to break into the market. Rapido's OO offerings are themselves of limited appeal, though the Hunslet might prove unexpectedly popular. On the other hand the field is wide open in TT-3

[mdvle]

4 minutes ago, whart57 said:

That cornucopia in OO does make it difficult for a relatively late entrant like Rapido to break into the market.

 

There are still lots of opportunities, despite what some like to claim.

 

4 minutes ago, whart57 said:

Rapido's OO offerings are themselves of limited appeal, though the Hunslet might prove unexpectedly popular.

 

Simply reflects the desires of the people running Rapido UK - and the realities of staring up a new company.

 

4 minutes ago, whart57 said:

On the other hand the field is wide open in TT-3

 

All of nothing is still nothing.

 

Really, this all comes down to what the people in 3mm and their society want.

 

If they want what they currently have, then they may get enough people to commit to a model that they may get say a Mk1 coach in RTR and it likely won't go much further.

 

Or they can take a serious look at what they want, and if they truly(*) want to try and grow their part of the hobby they will take some difficult decisions and move to a proper standard - 1:120 - that eliminates the same problems/arguments seen with OO/EM/P4 - because now is the time to make the switch before you get modern RTR models tooled up.

 

The current argument that 3mm offers the best of OO and N isn't encouraging anyone (modeller or manufacturer) to enter their market.

 

On the other hand if the UK market was finally offered a reasonably sized choice where the models and track were to the same scale (and thus accurate) you might have a change at attracting more people given the changes in the hobby over the last 2 decades to more accurate models - while eliminating the the distractions of which track width should be used.

 

This also offers the benefit that at least some locos could also be sold in Europe, helping to cover the very expensive cost of tooling locos.

 

* - experience with the North American S and O scale communities is that they prefer it to remain a niche scale so they can be different, thus they discourage expansion.

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

 

That cornucopia in OO does make it difficult for a relatively late entrant like Rapido to break into the market. Rapido's OO offerings are themselves of limited appeal, though the Hunslet might prove unexpectedly popular. On the other hand the field is wide open in TT-3

Other than replacements for long-outmoded models like GWR large prairies/moguls/Manors, the vast majority of new OO offerings are of limited appeal. There aren't an awful lot of prototypes with real mass appeal that haven't already been done to a standard the market will accept. Hence the recent popularity of industrial prototypes that offer a plethora of potential liveries and variation.

 

Rapido, and other newcomers, will have been well aware of the risks of entering the highly competitive OO marketplace. It's a choice between being the littlest fish in the largest pond or the biggest fish in the smallest. Whichever you pick, you'll still be the same sized fish! 

 

Rapido have clearly run foul of one of the OO risks, and their TT3 proposals might offer a way of hedging their bets. Whether there will be sufficient demand to make it worth their while to continue after cherry-picking obvious targets like BR Mk1 coaches  and 16t minerals remains to be seen, but the only way to know is to try.

 

Of all the more established scale/gauge niches, TT3 (with easy conversion to 14.2mm gauge designed in) probably offers a better chance of r-t-r success over the longer term than most of the alternatives. The nagging thought persists, though; if it didn't work last time, what has changed to make things different now?

 

If it were me, I'd be going for O-16.5 in much the way Peco, Heljan, and Bachmann have done in OO9!

 

John

Edited April 2, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

I rest my case

3mm scale British outline exists. It has a society, an extensive product base to support it, and a moderate level of modellers working in it. It has over 60 years accumulated modelling and modelling expertise behind it. From 1957-64 it was a fully commercial gauge in Britain

 

British outline 1:120 scale does not exist. It has not a scrap of any of the above behind it. Apart from one or two folk who think it might be a cool approach (but don't seem likely to actually to build a layout in 1:120 if trade support was introduced) there is no interest in it. I'm not aware that anyone has ever produced a working 1:120 Britisdh outline layout. (Edward Beal's TT West Midland was 3mm scale I think)

 

It might be that SK and the Margate folk are toying with the idea of establishing a beachhead in Continental TT, which is an actual commercial scale in Germany and Eastern Europe. A TT class 66 might be an interesting option for them. But it is worth pointing out that Hornby and the 3mm Society had similar discussions a couple of years back, and they concluded that the possible market was far too small for a RTR range to be viable

Edited April 2, 2021 by Ravenser

[Revolution Ben]

1 hour ago, Phatbob said:

Don't forget good people, the proposal under discussion is for a trawl by the 3mm society.  So sorry to cut-off discussions over UK 1:120 TT, but it's .

SK and the Margate posse may well be connsidering introducing 1:120 in the UK, but Rapido's carrot is definitely a 3mm carrot!  For what my opinion might be worth, I'd say new RTR should be engineered for 14.2mm, but supplied with 12mm wheelsets that'll work on PECO track.

 

Hi there,

 

I am sure Rapido are reaching out to the 3mm Association as an obvious starting point, but they're smart enough to be able to assess all the options!  Trying to close down the discussion around 1:101 v 1:120 seems a little hasty and perhaps a sign of insecurity.

 

I calculate that 1:101 scale on 12mm track is wrong by an error margin of 18%; 1:76 scale on 16.5mm track is 14% out; 1:148 scale on 9mm track is 7% out.  In contrast 1:87, 1:160 and 1:120 scale on 16.5mm, 9mm and 12mm track are all accurate to within 1%.  If these figures are wrong I am happy to be corrected.

 

The point is: 1:101 isn't just wrong, it's actually worse than the 'wrong' scale gauge combinations we already grudgingly accept but don't really like.

 

I applaud Rapido for asking the question, but my belief is that if they really want to achieve more than a gesture they need to appeal to those outside the existing niche. In my view the market for new RTR TT comes from:

 

*  Existing British outline TT modellers - mostly I assume modelling to 1:101 scale on 12mm track, or 14.2mm hand built track.

*  Existing Continental outline TT modellers who would like to run British stock but don't want the innaccuracy or know it won't fit in their tunnels.

*  00 or N modellers who are persuaded to have a dabble, like it and stick with it.

*  New entrants to the hobby.

 

Now I completely understand that at this moment the place to go is to existing British modellers, and they'd prefer coaches to match their other stock.  But realistically the last three of those groups is where the opportunity to actually grow the market lies, and it's my suggestion that they would be more tempted by 1:120 scale models.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

EDIT:  What mdvle said above.  His post arrived while I was writing mine, but articulates quite a lot of what I am trying to say far more elegantly.

Edited April 2, 2021 by Ben A

[luke_stevens]

Let me turn my original post backwards:

 

If Rapido released a fully tooled r-t-r 66 on the 1st of May 21, (ignoring liveries) would they sell more if 1/101 or more if 1/120? The European market already has several major manufactures producing items in 1/120. Roco dabbles with items it also produces in H0 and N, the majority of Tillig's range is TT and Kuehn only makes stuff for TT. There are roughly 400 Cl66's in the UK and very roughly 250 Cl66 outside. There already is a fully functioning r-t-r on mainland Europe, where as here in the UK Rapido would need to build it. 

 

Below is a link to a model wagon that a (Polish) Freightliner cl66 could pull.

 

https://www.tillig.com/Produkte/produktinfo-15253.html

 

Or to put it another way, if Rapido produced items in 1/120 would they loose more sales in the UK than they would gain elsewhere? I suspect the answer is "No".

 

Luke

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

It's a choice between being the littlest fish in the largest pond or the biggest fish in the smallest. Whichever you pick, you'll still be the same sized fish! 

 

Not necessarily.

 

The choice could be / is more likely to be a little fish in the largest pond or the dead fish in the too small pond.

 

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Of all the more established scale/gauge niches, TT3 (with easy conversion to 14.2mm gauge designed in) probably offers a better chance of r-t-r success over the longer term than most of the alternatives. The nagging thought persists, though; if it didn't work last time, what has changed to make things different now?

 

3mm has had 60 or so years of the "smaller than OO so better layouts but bigger than N so you can actually see your trains" marketing and the market has said no thank you.  A RTR Mk1 coach will not change that.

 

On the other hand many are aware of the compromises in OO and the conflict between the models and the track - but the expense/hassles of fixing it aren't worth the effort.

 

But market TT as a entirely accurate scale with more layout just being a bonus, and you might stand a chance at enticing more people to TT.

[adb968008]

21 hours ago, Grovenor said:

Just note that TT has the H0/00 problem as well in that Europe and the UK use significantly different scales. And neither will want stock built to the other.

In that case to me TT is a non starter.

 

Why start producing a new range of models by importing all the baggage of OO/HO issues into the new scale on day 1... pointless.

 

I thought the idea might have had legs, but now I know its bound by rules and constraints of 5 decades ago, on day 1.. I think it would be a waste of money, as  TT for yet another inccurate British scale on a completely new market I cannot see being viable on it‘s UK own merits... more chance British outline HO.

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by adb968008

[Dunsignalling]

Trouble is, 3mm scale at 14.2mm gauge results in clearances not far removed from those in P4, so minimum curves are actually going to be larger than for OO.

 

Best outcome, other than on straight-line terminus to fiddle yard set-up, is therefore longer trains (I.e. more coaches) and nicer looking curves on a layout that's not too much bigger than one in 4mm with train-set radii.

 

John

[Robert Shrives]

I am glad that the discussion has raged on wide and with purpose. It does seem from the correspondence had that Jason will get no where and it is dead in the water for the merry folk who model in 1:100/ 101 and happily live in a world of compromise but enjoy it anyway.  thanks.

    

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, Ben A said:

 

Hi there,

 

I am sure Rapido are reaching out to the 3mm Association as an obvious starting point, but they're smart enough to be able to assess all the options!  Trying to close down the discussion around 1:101 v 1:120 seems a little hasty and perhaps a sign of insecurity.

 

I calculate that 1:101 scale on 12mm track is wrong by an error margin of 18%; 1:76 scale on 16.5mm track is 14% out; 1:148 scale on 9mm track is 7% out.  In contrast 1:87, 1:160 and 1:120 scale on 16.5mm, 9mm and 12mm track are all accurate to within 1%.  If these figures are wrong I am happy to be corrected.

 

The point is: 1:101 isn't just wrong, it's actually worse than the 'wrong' scale gauge combinations we already grudgingly accept but don't really like.

 

I applaud Rapido for asking the question, but my belief is that if they really want to achieve more than a gesture they need to appeal to those outside the existing niche. In my view the market for new RTR TT comes from:

 

*  Existing British outline TT modellers - mostly I assume modelling to 1:101 scale on 12mm track, or 14.2mm hand built track.

*  Existing Continental outline TT modellers who would like to run British stock but don't want the innaccuracy or know it won't fit in their tunnels.

*  00 or N modellers who are persuaded to have a dabble, like it and stick with it.

*  New entrants to the hobby.

 

Now I completely understand that at this moment the place to go is to existing British modellers, and they'd prefer coaches to match their other stock.  But realistically the last three of those groups is where the opportunity to actually grow the market lies, and it's my suggestion that they would be more tempted by 1:120 scale models.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

EDIT:  What mdvle said above.  His post arrived while I was writing mine, but articulates quite a lot of what I am trying to say far more elegantly.

As far as your groups are concerned:

 

- Group 1 are all committed to 3mm scale. As far as those working in it today in Britain are concerned, this is 3mm scale, not TT or TT-3

 

- I'm really not sure Group 2 exist. With very few exceptions British rolling stock does not - and never has - run on the Continent. The EU national who wants to run British outline stock on his Continental layout but is prevented by the scale is an odd idea. If you are happy to run models of things that never ever stood next to each other in real life as some freelance polyglot mashup, then a difference in scale doesn't really pose an obstacle.

 

At a less philosophical level , the stronghold of TT is the former Eastern Bloc - Germany, the Czech Republic; Hungary,  Poland and Russia. It seems to be rather more of a craft/cottage industry scale than most of the major Continental scales (It's bigger than N so easier to make stuff, it's less well supported, and it is found in areas where "making the best of it" on your own was part of life). The Continental TT market might well buy a 66 - but that frankly is where it will stop. One loco in complete isolation won't make British outline 1:120 an option for anyone. 

 

- Group 3 will be tempted by either 3mm or 1:120 - but 1:120 shows limited difference from British N at 1:148, and therefore has much less to offer. And this group will be heavily influenced by what trade support is available before they have a dabble. A few bits of RTR backed up by a good spread of cottage industry support (have you seen the size of the 3mm Society range of plastic wagon kits?) is a much more attractive proposition than a few bits of RTR and no other support in the scale. We are NOT going to get a comprehensive commercial range of RTR in either 3mm or 1:120. We do have surprisingly good support for 3mm scale

 

Group 4 will feel the same way as Group 3 , but with knobs on.  

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Ben A said:

 

Hi there,

 

I am sure Rapido are reaching out to the 3mm Association as an obvious starting point, but they're smart enough to be able to assess all the options!  Trying to close down the discussion around 1:101 v 1:120 seems a little hasty and perhaps a sign of insecurity.

 

I calculate that 1:101 scale on 12mm track is wrong by an error margin of 18%; 1:76 scale on 16.5mm track is 14% out; 1:148 scale on 9mm track is 7% out.  In contrast 1:87, 1:160 and 1:120 scale on 16.5mm, 9mm and 12mm track are all accurate to within 1%.  If these figures are wrong I am happy to be corrected.

 

The point is: 1:101 isn't just wrong, it's actually worse than the 'wrong' scale gauge combinations we already grudgingly accept but don't really like.

 

I applaud Rapido for asking the question, but my belief is that if they really want to achieve more than a gesture they need to appeal to those outside the existing niche. In my view the market for new RTR TT comes from:

 

*  Existing British outline TT modellers - mostly I assume modelling to 1:101 scale on 12mm track, or 14.2mm hand built track.

*  Existing Continental outline TT modellers who would like to run British stock but don't want the innaccuracy or know it won't fit in their tunnels.

*  00 or N modellers who are persuaded to have a dabble, like it and stick with it.

*  New entrants to the hobby.

 

Now I completely understand that at this moment the place to go is to existing British modellers, and they'd prefer coaches to match their other stock.  But realistically the last three of those groups is where the opportunity to actually grow the market lies, and it's my suggestion that they would be more tempted by 1:120 scale models.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

EDIT:  What mdvle said above.  His post arrived while I was writing mine, but articulates quite a lot of what I am trying to say far more elegantly.

Problem is, 1:120 TT is entirely untried in British outline and the previous experiences with Fleischmann and Maerklin in something approximating HO suggests that interest in UK outline would be limited to prototypes that operate on both sides of the channel.

 

Q.1: How much breadth and depth of product would be needed at launch in order for such a range to be taken seriously?

 

Q.2: Would such a range be taken seriously unless it came from a long-established "name" in model railways?

 

Q.3: Why would any existing maker start a range of standard gauge models in a new scale when virtually every item sold will probably result in the loss of a sale to their established business?

 

John

Edited April 2, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Joseph_Pestell]

This seems to me to be an optimists vs pessimists sort of debate.

 

I am a member of the 3mm Society and I know, that despite the name, there are 2.5mm modellers (Continental prototype) who are members.

 

I am, in principle, very tempted by this idea. I bought a rake of Kitmaster coaches last year and they are not that great, the main objection being windows with overlarge curves at the corners of the windows -  a feature of the Triang suburbans as well.

 

The world is changing. One of the major French retailers is now selling Hornby 00 which I would never have expected. So a range of 1/120 UK models on 12mm rtl track may well be a more commercial option than staying with 1/101. Germany is a bigger market than the UK and might well prove receptive to models, European and British, from Rapido.

 

As regards Hornby, they already have a foot in the 1/120 door with Arnold.

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

There are still lots of opportunities, despite what some like to claim.

 

 

Simply reflects the desires of the people running Rapido UK - and the realities of staring up a new company.

 

 

All of nothing is still nothing.

 

Really, this all comes down to what the people in 3mm and their society want.

 

If they want what they currently have, then they may get enough people to commit to a model that they may get say a Mk1 coach in RTR and it likely won't go much further.

 

Or they can take a serious look at what they want, and if they truly(*) want to try and grow their part of the hobby they will take some difficult decisions and move to a proper standard - 1:120 - that eliminates the same problems/arguments seen with OO/EM/P4 - because now is the time to make the switch before you get modern RTR models tooled up.

 

The current argument that 3mm offers the best of OO and N isn't encouraging anyone (modeller or manufacturer) to enter their market.

 

On the other hand if the UK market was finally offered a reasonably sized choice where the models and track were to the same scale (and thus accurate) you might have a change at attracting more people given the changes in the hobby over the last 2 decades to more accurate models - while eliminating the the distractions of which track width should be used.

 

This also offers the benefit that at least some locos could also be sold in Europe, helping to cover the very expensive cost of tooling locos.

 

* - experience with the North American S and O scale communities is that they prefer it to remain a niche scale so they can be different, thus they discourage expansion.

 

 

I've read and heard stuff from some TT modellers that suggests a similar situation to what you say about American S and 0. On the other hand, the issue with introducing British 1:120 stuff is that you immediately make 3mm scale TT a 'relic' scale, a bit like American 00 (which is 19mm gauge and lost out to H0 as the commercially supported scale - I think British TT, even if now a bit niche, probably still has a lot more followers than American 00). British H0 seems to work because there was some limited commercial/RTR support at one time, there still is for 00, and I suspect the range of Continental stuff is still quite a lot bigger in H0 than in 1:120. As has been mentioned I don't think anyone has done a British 1:120 layout, although iirc there is a Continental class 66 in this scale (so for modern image it may be more viable - how many modern image layouts are there in 3mm TT?)

 

When we started to get RTR stuff in 009, it encouraged some newcomers but was also bought by existing 009 modellers that I know from the 009 Society - presumably it depended on support from both markets. The newcomers would often have been standard gauge 00 (or occasionally N) modellers as well, using either a gauge or scale that was partially familiar to them and sometimes building a feeder line for an 00 layout. There was no debate about scale (except with the Minitrains stock which is often a little flexible around the H0/00 distinction) - perhaps with 2' 6" gauge prototypes H0e could technically have been considered (although it wouldn't be, because of the desire to be compatible with 00 accessories), but so far it's mostly been 2' stuff. 

 

Evidently Rapido is looking to the existing TT market to establish themselves initially, which means 3mm scale. For unpowered rolling stock, would it not be possible to issue items with either 12 or 14.2mm gauge wheelsets? I think something similar is done in 0 for coarse vs fine wheel profiles, and some garden railway stock is convertible between 32 and 45mm.

 

I don't do 3mm currently, although I wonder whether something like a 16 ton mineral wagon would work well? I've heard of people with medium-sized and large layouts who have the skills to build wagon kits, but need so many to run a reasonable train length that building them eventually becomes a chore, so might such people welcome a little RTR assistance with this? On the other hand, if you need lots it's often only affordable if they are kit built.

[009 micro modeller]

16 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

Group 4 will feel the same way as Group 3 , but with knobs on.  

 

But also, new entrants to the hobby seem likely to go into 00, even if they don't stay very long before moving to a different scale. It's probably just a case of what you get sold if you're a non-modelling rail enthusiast or casually interested person who goes out and just wants to buy 'a model train' without knowing that much about the different scales.

[D9020 Nimbus]

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

It might be that SK and the Margate folk are toying with the idea of establishing a beachhead in Continental TT, which is an actual commercial scale in Germany and Eastern Europe.

They don't need to establish a beachhead in continental TT — they already have one. There are a number of TT products made under the Arnold brand, and the range is being further expanded.

 

TT folded in West Germany about the same time as in the UK. With less commercial pressures, and the inability of Eastern European producers at the time to produce reliable N gauge models, Berliner Bahnen were able to build up a big enough range to attract sufficient custom to keep the scale going. I wonder — given the reliability issues (early Farish) and compromised shapes (Minitrix), I wonder if commercial TT would have survived in the UK had it been made by a producer who only made items in that scale?

[009 micro modeller]

2 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

I wonder if commercial TT would have survived in the UK had it been made by a producer who only made items in that scale?

 

Wasn't Triang essentially the only large manufacturer for UK TT the first time round? Because if your only TT products are a smaller selection from your 00 range, reproduced at the smaller size, then it does seem that eventually the additional tooling costs to do both scales would not be viable any more. As you suggest a TT-only producer would avoid this.

[adb968008]

On 02/04/2021 at 17:06, Ravenser said:

 

 

- I'm really not sure Group 2 exist. With very few exceptions British rolling stock does not - and never has - run on the Continent. The EU national who wants to run British outline stock on his Continental layout but is prevented by the scale is an odd idea. If you are happy to run models of things that never ever stood next to each other in real life as some freelance polyglot mashup, then a difference in scale doesn't really pose an obstacle.

You are wrong here by at leasy 277 former TOPS registered locomotives 20,37,47,56,58,86,87,92 , since 1999..

Plus 200 class 66’s that never landed on our shores.

 

Going back in history, theres more than 2000+ locomotives easily either of British extraction or of designs that have run in the UK... WD,8f, S100,s160,J94, Jinty, class 03,06,07,08,14,76,77 even an 89, 90,91 and 156 have made it...plus Taurus, Kestrel and 18000... ive ridden at 56mph behind a GWR prairie on Polish stock on the mainline not that long ago. 
 

 

 

Sure in the big world of Europe 2000+ Locos it is nothing, but its a big nothing.

The 66 is the most viable modern candidate for TT, after all its been modelled 4 times in HO scale already.. Mehano, Heljan, Trix and ESU... thats 1x more than we have in OO...so our European friends clearly appreciate it.

 

however if British TT isnt European TT.. then imho its a dead duck, unless done to European TT scale... if there is an opportunity here, imho it should be done accurately.

Edited May 16, 2021 by adb968008

[whart57]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Of all the more established scale/gauge niches, TT3 (with easy conversion to 14.2mm gauge designed in) probably offers a better chance of r-t-r success over the longer term than most of the alternatives. The nagging thought persists, though; if it didn't work last time, what has changed to make things different now?

 

If it were me, I'd be going for O-16.5 in much the way Peco, Heljan, and Bachmann have done in OO9!

 

Funnily enough my contribution to Rapido's poll was to suggest an O-16.5 model of the Welshpool and Llanfair's Earl/Countess.

 

I think there are a number of things that have changed since 1965. The first - and very important one - is that it is no longer the generalist toy shop that is the interface with Joe Public. Most toy shop owners sixty years ago thought of OO as Hornby Dublo and Triang in red boxes and TT as Triang in yellow boxes. They didn't really understand the difference and therefore couldn't explain which to choose to parents coming in to buy little Johnny's Christmas present. (There was a significant price difference between Triang and Hornby Dublo and shopkeepers could explain that!) The message that went back to Triang was please stop sending us the yellow boxes, send us Scalextric instead.

 

The second is that the target market is not children but adult hobbyists. The reasons for TT-3 will be discussed and talked about on forums like this, in clubs and in magazines, and potential buyers will have the tools with which to make their choice.

 

Third of course is that technology has moved on

Edited April 2, 2021 by whart57

[whart57]

16 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

TT folded in West Germany about the same time as in the UK. With less commercial pressures, and the inability of Eastern European producers at the time to produce reliable N gauge models, Berliner Bahnen were able to build up a big enough range to attract sufficient custom to keep the scale going.

 

I always understood it was the embargo by the Americans on selling the new generation of rare earth magnets coming out from Japan to the Soviet bloc that prevented East German and Czech model companies successfully going into N gauge.

[Dunsignalling]

38 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

This seems to me to be an optimists vs pessimists sort of debate.

Pessimists only get nice surprises.

 

Optimists only get nasty ones.

 

John

[luke_stevens]

Can anyone else hear the sound of Jason running away very fast?

 

Luke

[Dunsignalling]

Just a thought. Rapido have raised the possibility of producing two items of British outline rolling stock in TT, no locomotives.

 

If they had anything other than 3mm scale in mind, there would have to be a loco to pull them....

 

John