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Just trying to finish off a 7mm GWR timber signal box and cannot resolve what these commonly specifed colours really were!

 

The HMRS "GWR Way" chart does not match the GWS Didcot pair of restored boxes GWS boxesanymore than the Severn Valley's stations Severn Valley station. Radstock box seems to have changed from more or less the Humbrol colours to the Severn Valley tones between 1979 and 2006 so maybe the GWS were unsure?

 

The respected modeller Trevor Pott's "Churston" layout http://www.gwr.org.uk/layoutschurston5.htmlis different again (and by a country mile) so what is the answer?

 

Not Humbrol for sure whose light and dark stone are nothing like any of the above, except perhaps the initial GWS paint job on Radstock in the 1970's! I'm sure someone will have resolved this, any RMwebbers know?

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Very interesting David, I hadn't seen this before!

 

Lascala: I don't think a consensus has ever been reached on this. The HMRS "GW Way" colour chart has been critizised as giving a wrong indication of the "Light Stone" (which looks very grey in the HMRs book). See eg Stephen Williams' (un-illustrated) critique of this in in vol 2 of the GWR Branchline Modelling books. As you probably know, its also worth keeping in mind that photos of layouts may turn out differently from how the original layouts appeared - and that different computer screens give different impressions!

 

If you chose to use the Precision paints, it would be really interesting see a photo of the results, since we often don't know exactly which manufacturer's paint was used in specific model photos.

 

 

 

 

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stonecolours.jpg

 

 

These are samples but should give you an idea on the colours to use, The Precision colours are possibly the best match, Railmatch are well off the mark and the old colours precision made and the colours in the back of Great Western Way are not right at all.

 

David

 

Thanks so much I didn't expect such a tangible answer! I think it's telling that the premier GWR preservation group and one of the longest running preserved GWR lines can't agree. The GWS obviously changed its mind. I know pictures of other peoples models can give a wrong impression and this probably results from selecting from a favoured range. I have been hoping that a Tamiya or GW acrylic would be a close match as like many others I find these excellent paints.

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Seems this topic was given a solid run on old forum in 2007RM WEb 2007:- with result that the Precision equivalents in Tamiya are:-

 

Precision GWR Light Stone 1 part Tamiya Red Brown [XF64] + 5 parts Tamiya matt white [XF2] + 3 parts Tamiya matt desert yellow [XF59])

Precision GWR Dark Stone 1 part Tamiya matt yellow [XF3] + 1 part Tamiya matt red [XF7] +1 part Tamiya matt flat earth [XF52])OP edited to correct flat earth number

 

In 2008 the concensus was that the GWS have got it right at Didcot second time around and Dart Valley have erroneously used GWR Way colours!

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Even in the new Great Western Way the colours have been changed but yet seem to be wrong yet again. The person who let me borrow the samples has other samples too from other stations and the shades are exactly the same, He was taking notes and of station colours since the 1940s and does feel that the samples he took were slightly faded from when first applied in which they tended to be brighter.

 

I am am writing an article for Great Western Journal that uncovers information on the early station application and also the colours applied at some stations in 1947, the person who lend me the sample after reading in the Railway Magazine that there were new styles of painting at Paddington and Ealing Broadway travelled there and took colour notes.

 

David

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LaScala, thanks for the links and refs to the earlier debates. I dimly remembered them but couldn't find it last time I looked.

 

David, I look forward to reading that article!

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If you chose to use the Precision paints, it would be really interesting see a photo of the results, since we often don't know exactly which manufacturer's paint was used in specific model photos.

 

This is what Phoenix Precision P21 GWR Light Stone and P22 GWR Dark Stone look like. I was worried the flash would wash the colours out, but they seem to have come out pretty much as is. They look a lot closer to the GWS colours on the earlier links than the colours used on the SVR, but don't seem that close to the actual (albeit faded) paint samples shown.

post-7355-12572000265095_thumb.jpg

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This is what Phoenix Precision P21 GWR Light Stone and P22 GWR Dark Stone look like. I was worried the flash would wash the colours out, but they seem to have come out pretty much as is. They look a lot closer to the GWS colours on the earlier links than the colours used on the SVR, but don't seem that close to the actual (albeit faded) paint samples shown.

 

Thanks for that 57xx, this is a useful reference to have. Yes the colours do look a bit lighter and brighter than those in David's sample, although weahtering might help a good deal.

 

Incidentally, I have some tins of acrylic GWR dark and light stone that I bought some years ago from a new venture called "The Railwayman" - who tried to establish a range of railway acrylics. Does anyone know what happened to that company - they seem to have disasspeared from the internet so perhaps they don't exist anymore?

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Great answers! I'm going to try the Tamiya cocktail brewed by the 2007 RMWebber as it's much easier for me to source these excellent paints in Australia. I wouldn't mind betting the GWS really did use Humbrol colours on Radstock in the 70's, I dimly remember a story that Alan Pegler used Humbrol LNER green on 4472 in the early 70's.

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Incidentally, I have some tins of acrylic GWR dark and light stone that I bought some years ago from a new venture called "The Railwayman" - who tried to establish a range of railway acrylics. Does anyone know what happened to that company - they seem to have disasspeared from the internet so perhaps they don't exist anymore?

 

 

Ah, I see from past posts on the old site that he does indeed not seem to be trading anymore (at least under that name!). . I was going to post a sample of the paints, but will not then.

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Have tried the Tamiya cocktails this weekend and have to report with dismay that neither look anything like the GWS Frome & Radstock boxes. The "dark stone" is the less wayward but not pink enough, the "light stone" more like the Humbrol/Trevor Pott Churston/Radstock @ Didcot 1979 tones and with barely a hint of cream in it.

 

Back to the drawing board so to speak.........

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I think you need to be very carefull when looking at preserved structures as a paint reference. Having done some painting for a railway that had better be nameless we went to a local DIY shop and bought the nearest off the shelf colours we could find, from memory a shade called 'Bamboo' for the light stone colour. It was much better to preserve the structure concerned than let it deteriorate further and an approximation of the correct colour was better than something way off. Same can apply to rolling stock, when someone offers you gallons of CEGB green it tend to get used even if not correct. Later when funds and time allow you can start to look for a more 'correct' colour. I know some of the 'bigger' lines have been able to go back to the original suppliers and get new batches of paint mixed up, but even then it can be difficult, especially if lead was in the original formulation. I'm sure other preservation societies have found themselves in a similar position of adopting a pragmatic approach to suite time and funds available. What we would like to see and what's possible don't always coincide.

 

Tony Comber

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Some time ago (> 20 years) I read in some similar discussion in some modelling book or magazine (yes, imprecise, I know) that it was the opinion of the author that for each job the colours were made using handfuls (his description) of powdered pigment mixed into white lead base until the correct colour was approximated to in the wet.

 

If this were to be the case then consistency between buildings was not going to be obtained.

 

I'm adopting this as the raison d'etre for the colours I'm going to be using (Precision) when I get my backside into gear, as we can always argue as much as we like but without samples as illustrated above we'll never know the reality.

 

Many years ago (1984) when we were researching for the qunicentenary of the Battle of Bosworth we visited Salisbury Cathedral to see the tomb of Sir John Cheney, standard bearer to Henry (later Henry VII) and found that by lose visual inspection into the corners of the carvings that there were rich yellow and blue colours from previous painting of the stone. This has taught me to look in corners and places out of the public view for clues. Another case occurred when we visited Crowland Abbey (Lincolnshire) and were shown a strange carving in a storeroom - it turned out to be a re-used stone block from an archway and we could trace some of the original surface wash.

 

Maybe some of the preserved lines could be persuaded to look in nooks and crannies and in places where paint overspill may have lodged to give a more definitive answer.

 

I'm still sticking with Precision unless they're shown to be wrong.

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Without giving too much away from my GWJ article there were three stone shades it seems by 1930 No2 & No.3 were the main colours although before this No.1 & No. 3 were the main colours with plenty of choclate brown as well on doors and window frames/sashes.

 

The three shades of stone specified in the 1947 colours applied at Paddington and Ealing Broadway were very different to the previous stone colours according to John Reed who took samples and colour notes. The lighest stone used under the canopies was a very pale cream, while the mid stone was a deeper cream.

 

The samples he took from Brill and also Dorton Halt are more or less identical, he also describes the stone colours when newly applied as being warn brown shades and the samples in Great Western Way nothing like he ever saw at any Great Western station!

 

John's notes are very interesting he even took notes on colours found on woodwork when newspaper stands were removed giving information of previous colours although on this case it was not a GWR station.

 

David

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Fascinating David! Any chance there will be colour samples in your GWRJ article?

 

The ones above are great, but since computer screens render colours so differently I would prefer having them in print (although of course you're not entirely in control of how that turns out either!).

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Fascinating David! Any chance there will be colour samples in your GWRJ article?

 

The ones above are great, but since computer screens render colours so differently I would prefer having them in print (although of course you're not entirely in control of how that turns out either!).

 

There will be colour samples, They have been scanned a couple of times so far Hi-Res and although very close to the supplied samples they are not yet spot on, so have been asked to do them again.

 

The samples seem to be more pink than Pheonix colours, although the Railmatch colours seem well off the mark being too beige and pale.

 

Stone No.1 was a lighter creamer colour, its hard to be sure in a black and white photos but the difference in tone can be seen in early pictures compared with the use of No.2 from the 1920/30s onwards.

 

David

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Amended my Tamiya shandy to cream up the "light" and pink up the "dark". Old Humbrol on part of frame for comparison. Unpainted plinth will be below ground of course.

 

With apologies for phone camera here it is and yes I know down pipes don't reach roof!

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That's a good-looking box Lascala. I hope we'll get a chance to see more of the layout a some stage.

 

The dark stone looks a little too red/dark to me, but then my guess is as good as yours and perhaps I'm still locked ino the erroneous perception of the stone colours that David's forthcoming article appears to challenge.

 

Would be interesting to hear what David thinks of the colours on your box?

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Is now the time to admit to being like 10% of men a little colour blind? I think a bit of toning down with talc might be helpful and wait and see what is revealed in upcoming article.

 

The layout is yet to be erected as I'm working on successive boards with the aim of a 6.5m section being up and running over Christmas. What you can see a glimpse of is part of a 1.8m board with station throat. Box has Churchward Models window etches, otherwise Evergreen over foamboard.

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Without giving too much away from my GWJ article there were three stone shades it seems by 1930 No2 & No.3 were the main colours although before this No.1 & No. 3 were the main colours with plenty of choclate brown as well on doors and window frames/sashes.

 

The three shades of stone specified in the 1947 colours applied at Paddington and Ealing Broadway were very different to the previous stone colours according to John Reed who took samples and colour notes. The lighest stone used under the canopies was a very pale cream, while the mid stone was a deeper cream.

 

The samples he took from Brill and also Dorton Halt are more or less identical, he also describes the stone colours when newly applied as being warn brown shades and the samples in Great Western Way nothing like he ever saw at any Great Western station!

 

John's notes are very interesting he even took notes on colours found on woodwork when newspaper stands were removed giving information of previous colours although on this case it was not a GWR station.

 

David

David, All

 

I am no expert on the GWR but it just so happens that there is, in the Gauge O Guild November 2009 Gazette that arrived a few days ago, an article by Peter Smith (Kirtley Model Buildings) on Colour Schemes for Railway Buildings - this first of 5 and this one covers the GWR (pre- and post-Grouping) and Constituents. If you know any O Gauge modellers who are members of the Guild it would be very worth while requesting a loan of their copy.

 

In summary, Stone No1 and Stone No3 were the topcoats, whereas Stone No2 was only ever used as an undercoat. He refers to the perpetuated and unfortunate error in the HMRS Great Western Way, but recommends GWR Branch Line Stations Volume 2, colour photos on cover of Newent or Barber's Bridge for reference. He adds that Didcot Railway Centre uses the right colours.

 

For modellers, the correct colours are from Precision Paints, previously from the Cherry Paints range and originally colour matched by Peter Smith:

 

P21 GWR Light Stone

P22 GWR Dark Stone

also GWR Coach Lake, as used for painting guttering and downpipes post 1931.

 

There's a bit more detail about the colour of various other components, such as running in and notice boards, platform barrows and fencing, and of footbridges and other bridges (had different paint schemes). He also states that "Window frames were always white, and that was that"!

 

Hope this helps...

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David, All

 

I am no expert on the GWR but it just so happens that there is, in the Gauge O Guild November 2009 Gazette that arrived a few days ago, an article by Peter Smith (Kirtley Model Buildings) on Colour Schemes for Railway Buildings - this first of 5 and this one covers the GWR (pre- and post-Grouping) and Constituents. If you know any O Gauge modellers who are members of the Guild it would be very worth while requesting a loan of their copy.

 

In summary, Stone No1 and Stone No3 were the topcoats, whereas Stone No2 was only ever used as an undercoat. He refers to the perpetuated and unfortunate error in the HMRS Great Western Way, but recommends GWR Branch Line Stations Volume 2, colour photos on cover of Newent or Barber's Bridge for reference. He adds that Didcot Railway Centre uses the right colours.

 

For modellers, the correct colours are from Precision Paints, previously from the Cherry Paints range and originally colour matched by Peter Smith:

 

P21 GWR Light Stone

P22 GWR Dark Stone

also GWR Coach Lake, as used for painting guttering and downpipes post 1931.

 

There's a bit more detail about the colour of various other components, such as running in and notice boards, and of bridges.

 

Hope this helps...

 

I am not a member of the O gauge guild but I know a man who is.

 

It does seem that even in the article you mention it is just a repeat of what has been stated before, I am trying to take a fresh look at primary sources, I know Martin Goodall has been looking into structure colours too and came to the same conclusion too, that there was a lot of missing information.

 

Stone No. 1 was a top coat and so was Stone No.2 and I do not know where this info that one was an undercoat, Stone No1. was the prefered top coat upto the mid 1920s when the darker Stone No.2 took its place, therefore if you scraped the top coat you would find a lighter shade under.

 

The painting of signal boxes at least around 1900 was different to that on stations, signal boxes had white painted sashes, although on station buildings sashes and all parts of windows and doors were chocolate or maybe lake. I will try to find a photo to upload to show this.

 

David

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I have just caught up with this interesting thread.

 

Here are a couple of photos of 7mm GWR buildings that I painted with Precision paint, which I find to be the best match and the best and easiest to use; it airbrushes beautifully.

 

00GWRStation.jpg

 

 

00GWRBox.jpg

 

 

These were painted a few years ago and were rescued from an earlier layout so they do need some tarting up.

 

 

Willy

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This photo of Bledlow station does show the colour application in around c1910-1920 you can see the chocolate windows and doors on the station. the light stone on the station barge boards and lamp hut, does seem lighter than the light stone on the signal box, although maybe this is an optical thing. The dark stone can be seen on the signal box bargeboards, so we have at least a three colour application possibly four excluding the white on the signal box sashes.

 

David

post-186-1257932865321_thumb.jpg

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Hi David,

 

I understand entirely about going back to sources, in fact I'm reposting a query about LNER colours in this Area for the self-same reason.

 

As I said, I'm no GWR expert, in fact the only thing I know is that arguably the best locomotive engineer of the GER came from Swindon - it's just that the article I referred to seem to address the queries, and also gave the correct paint matches. I'll be interested to compare the LNER article with my own research in due course.

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