GWR Light & Dark Stone

[iL Dottore]

Have tried the Tamiya cocktails this weekend and have to report with dismay that neither look anything like the GWS Frome & Radstock boxes. The "dark stone" is the less wayward but not pink enough, the "light stone" more like the Humbrol/Trevor Pott Churston/Radstock @ Didcot 1979 tones and with barely a hint of cream in it.

 

Back to the drawing board so to speak.........

To come up with these cocktails I first painted white plasticard with the Precision colours and then mixed and matched the Tamiya colours (carefully noting the ratios) until the results looked right under a natural daylight (OTT) lamp. I then used these mixtures to repaint a Hornby ready-to-plonk signal box which I had upgraded. The results, to my eyes, matched other GWR buildings that I had painted with Precision colours.

 

I suspect that the mixture of the base colour of the object that is being painted, ambient lighting and age (and condition????) of eyes will affect how the colours are perceived.

 

Given that paints were mixed up on the spot by GWR painters (although to a standard "recipe") this would have introduced subtle variations in hue and tint, which when further altered by varying degrees of aging, weathering and abuse, probably meant that even in one station there would have been subtle variations between painted structures.

 

I would argue that, with judicious weathering, you could have a different objects sporting slightly different tints of Light and Dark Stone on the same layout (in the same station???) and you'd still be prototypically accurate (dons tin helmet and flak vest and ducks below parapet....)

 

F

[The Stationmaster]

To come up with these cocktails I first painted white plasticard with the Precision colours and then mixed and matched the Tamiya colours (carefully noting the ratios) until the results looked right under a natural daylight (OTT) lamp. I then used these mixtures to repaint a Hornby ready-to-plonk signal box which I had upgraded. The results, to my eyes, matched other GWR buildings that I had painted with Precision colours.

 

I suspect that the mixture of the base colour of the object that is being painted, ambient lighting and age (and condition????) of eyes will affect how the colours are perceived.

 

Given that paints were mixed up on the spot by GWR painters (although to a standard "recipe") this would have introduced subtle variations in hue and tint, which when further altered by varying degrees of aging, weathering and abuse, probably meant that even in one station there would have been subtle variations between painted structures.

 

I would argue that, with judicious weathering, you could have a different objects sporting slightly different tints of Light and Dark Stone on the same layout (in the same station???) and you'd still be prototypically accurate (dons tin helmet and flak vest and ducks below parapet....)

 

F

 

But you would have to make sure the most fading is on the southern side of any structure

 

I presume these paints contained white lead (?) and the way that was mixed would also affect the rate of weathering and the initial colour.

[Chris Nevard]

- SNIP ----- I suspect that the mixture of the base colour of the object that is being painted, ambient lighting and age (and condition????) of eyes will affect how the colours are perceived.

 

Given that paints were mixed up on the spot by GWR painters (although to a standard "recipe") this would have introduced subtle variations in hue and tint, which when further altered by varying degrees of aging, weathering and abuse, probably meant that even in one station there would have been subtle variations between painted structures.

 

I would argue that, with judicious weathering, you could have a different objects sporting slightly different tints of Light and Dark Stone on the same layout (in the same station???) and you'd still be prototypically accurate (dons tin helmet and flak vest and ducks below parapet....)

 

F

 

Good man! Top that off with 'scale colour' (which as we all know means generally less saturated and lighter) means that what comes out of the tin will be miles off. I'm no expert on GWR colours, but experince of other infrastructure colours (mainly Southern) means that I aways mix my own (if in doubt add some pale grey/beige). My pet hate is out of the tin Southern Region Green and cream (stone) seen on so many layouts which looks nothing like the real thing ever did.

[Ceejay]

Just trying to finish off a 7mm GWR timber signal box and cannot resolve what these commonly specifed colours really were!

 

The HMRS "GWR Way" chart does not match the GWS Didcot pair of restored boxes GWS boxesanymore than the Severn Valley's stations Severn Valley station. Radstock box seems to have changed from more or less the Humbrol colours to the Severn Valley tones between 1979 and 2006 so maybe the GWS were unsure?

 

The respected modeller Trevor Pott's "Churston" layout http://www.gwr.org.uk/layoutschurston5.htmlis different again (and by a country mile) so what is the answer?

 

Not Humbrol for sure whose light and dark stone are nothing like any of the above, except perhaps the initial GWS paint job on Radstock in the 1970's! I'm sure someone will have resolved this, any RMwebbers know?

Hi there

 

I have quite a few books on the G W R and most of the pictures show quite a difference in some of the colours, but i have read in one of these books that the paint was mixed on site, so the colour was whatever theguy mixing the paint thought was correct, sounds good to me

 

Chris Hughes

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Hi there

 

I have quite a few books on the G W R and most of the pictures show quite a difference in some of the colours, but i have read in one of these books that the paint was mixed on site, so the colour was whatever theguy mixing the paint thought was correct, sounds good to me

 

Chris Hughes

 

 

It was only up to the 1920s that paint was mixed on site after that paint was brought in ready mixed from outside manufacters, so in practice there should not have been too much variation.

 

David

[Coombe Barton]

Just found this site

 

http://www.stationcolours.info/page4.html

 

In the absence of concensus I'm sticking with the Precision Paints offerings.

[57xx]

Nice pic PMP! I reckon that seals the deal for the Precision colours (+ some weathering).

[Tonka]

Interesting thread this.

 

Colour perception is very difficult as paints weather with age and even if you have a colour photo it will depend on the film used and the lighting conditions.

 

When I came to paint the signal box and station building for our layout (East Dean) I used Humbrol Light Stone and Precision Dark Stone. The Dark Stone was mixed with the Humbrol Light Stone to tone it down a bit; about 50/50 from memory. To my eye this combination looked ok and wasn't too far off the paint on the signal box at Faiford shown in the colour photo on the front of Part 1 of Great Western Branch Line Modelling. Please bear in mind the layout was set in the 1950s so the paint work would not have been pristine; we wanted it faded. If I were to do newer paintwork I'd have a go at mixing the Humbrol Light Stone with the Precision Light Stone to tone it down a bit. I do find the use of the Precision Light and Dark Stone straight out of the tin a bit too saturated to look convincing on a model.

 

On PMPs picture, the colours seem to have survived much better than the ones shown on the said front cover despite the intervening 40 years. This may be down to the amount of sunshine in Wales!!

 

Look forward to the article in GWJ.

 

Cheers

 

Brian

 

 

[Mr Brunel]

Can you get matching acrylic paints?

[Karhedron]

Can you get matching acrylic paints?

I do not think so, the closest is the recipe for mixing your own from Tamiya acrylics that was mentioned earlier in the thread.

[LaScala]

Did that definitive article from the "bigcheeseplant" ever see the light of day?

[allan downes]

Back in the early days of the railway companies, painters mixed their own paint and I doubt if any two stations were of the same shade of anything !

 

For GWR cream I use Halfords sandlewood beige when spraying and humbrol beige 121 when hand painting. As foe the chocolate brown I mix anything that looks like it which is generally a drop of black mixed in with brown. As for GWR stone, well I just stick to 'chocolate and cream' - and it seems to work.

 

Check out the colours on this station.

 

Cheers.

 

Allan.

 

[Graham Walters]

Back in the early days of the railway companies, painters mixed their own paint and I doubt if any two stations were of the same shade of anything !

 

For GWR cream I use Halfords sandlewood beige when spraying and humbrol beige 121 when hand painting. As foe the chocolate brown I mix anything that looks like it which is generally a drop of black mixed in with brown. As for GWR stone, well I just stick to 'chocolate and cream' - and it seems to work.

 

Check out the colours on this station.

 

Cheers.

 

Allan.

 

STATION SIGNS & POSTERS 003.JPGSTATION SIGNS & POSTERS 006.JPG

 

I read an article on the net, and I wish I could find it again, it completely rubbishes the myth that stations mixed their own paints.

 

GWR were actually ordering paint from a company in Torquay very early on, so the colours were of a standard.  The only difference now being that they put lead in the paint, whereas todays paints are lead free.

 

That may affect the hues.

[allan downes]

I read an article on the net, and I wish I could find it again, it completely rubbishes the myth that stations mixed their own paints.

 

GWR were actually ordering paint from a company in Torquay very early on, so the colours were of a standard.  The only difference now being that they put lead in the paint, whereas todays paints are lead free.

 

That may affect the hues.

And I also read on the web that they did - but your explanation makes the most sense !

 

Cheers.

Allan.

[Edwardian]

These days I think there is greater understanding of how trying to be accurate about a colour to the Nth degree is an exercise in modelling futility.  Wargamers factor-in the types of dyes used and how colours degraded.  For locomotives and rolling stock there is the effect of multiple coats and varnish (hence 2 apparent GW greens), age, ultraviolet light and weathering. This is all before you think about the effect of light or scale on colour perception.  I have seen photographs of the same (full size) locomotive in Stroudley Improved Engine Green looking anything from dark ochre to bright yellow, depending on the light and, I suppose, the camera.

 

Paint used on structures may be a little less susceptible to lighting effects, but weathering/degradation and scale colour effects still apply.  I think the most you can do is establish a reasonably accurate starting point and then adapt to suit your model, applying the "if it looks right..." principle.

 

Having said that, there is a need to decide between some really contrasting interpretations before you light on a starting point for the GW stone colours. 

 

About 18 years ago, my interest in railways, dormant since childhood, reawakened.  As it was, nothing came of it as girlfriends, jobs, flats, wife, overseas posting, children, credit crunch etc, kept me in the armchair until very recently.  I did visit the Severn Valley for inspiration.  I came back with a lot of photographs showing the GW stone colours.  These were subtle, attractive, and actually looked like stone colours.  I bought some Mike's Models water cranes and ordered my Precision Paint Stone 1 and 3. I was shocked by the result.

 

This triggered research into which was right.  I concluded that Precision had it right, but, that did not mean that the colours should not be moderated in order to reflect scale and light.  I would suggest using the Precision colours as the starting point.  For 4mm and smaller, I think a slight and judicious bleaching might be best.

 

That said, there seems enough evidence of variation on the prototype to give a lot of leeway.  It would be hard to say that any reasonable interpretation painted to taste was wrong.   

[The Stationmaster]

And I also read on the web that they did - but your explanation makes the most sense !

 

Cheers.

Allan.

Station painting was carried out by the Civil Engineer's Dept which had a number of mobile painting gangs, The S&T Dept mobile painting gangs looked after signals and signalboxes while the M&EE Dept looked after locos sheds and various plant and machinery etc.

 

Thus at a station which had a signalbox, a water tower and, say, a turntable as well as the station and goods shed buildings the painting would be carried out by three different departments working on different timescales and quite likely working to slightly different interpretations of what colours went where according to the whim of the Foreman Painter.  The CE Dept painters didn't cover the whole company/region but were Divisionally based but the S&T Painters did the lot, complete with the train in which they lived while on site or based nearby.  I don't know home the M&EE Painters were organised but quite possibly based on a central team like the S&T Dept.

 

S&T Dept signalbox painting was finally transferred to the Civil Engrs - probably in the 1970s, I'm not certain of the date and signalbox structural maintenance was also changed to the Civils at some stage.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

 

I have posted this sample in other threads, but it does give an idea of the shades of GWR stone, even after a few years after painting the colours have not faded to the washed out colours that Railmatch sell as the GWR stone colours.

 

Pheonix I think is the closest match, and I think most of the preserved railways seem well off the mark. I have just been on holiday and visited the South Devon Railway where each station seems to have a different version of what they think is GWR stone colour.

 

David

[allan downes]

 

 

 

Pheonix I think is the closest match, and I think most of the preserved railways seem well off the mark. I have just been on holiday and visited the South Devon Railway where each station seems to have a different version of what they think is GWR stone colour.

 

David

My earlier point exactly. Just do your thing.

 

Cheers.

Allan

[Edwardian]

David, many thanks - some real evidence to leaven the speculation at last!  I agree, it suggests the Phoenix paints form a good basis, but, I think, modified to taste. 

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Great Western structure colours by the Great Western Study Group http://www.gwsg.org.uk/seems quite comprehensive on the colours used.

 

Detailed information in the book from the Great Western Railway seem to point that the paint was brought in ready mixed so there would have been no variation in shade and the myth that as been repeated many times of being mixed on site seems untrue.

 

Other samples from other GWR stations taken by John Reed match exactly with each other, if the samples where taken in 1963 then the sample would be at least 16 years old if not 20 plus, the colours seem still very rich and not faded at all, and nothing like the pale cream used by British Railways.

 

Colours on GWR structures pre 1920 are discussed on this thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66040-gwr-poster-boards-and-early-structure-colours/

[Edwardian]

Thanks, I will check these out.  I have read published sources that state paint was mixed on site.  The practices described by others on this thread suggest a much more complicated, departmental, system.  Mostly it does seem to be centrally manufactured.

 

Personally I see the merit of going back to the sources.  I'd rather so and then adapt to taste to represent variations and age, atmosphere, fade etc, and scale.  For me that's preferable to just making it up.  It's not something that permits of much precision, despite the name of the paint range, so I won't get hung up about it.  Theoretical accuracy must be subordinate to it looking right in every case.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

One thing I have noticed in colour photos is that the station valance seems to go more of a grey shade over time, I expect this is due to the smoke from the chimneys of the locomotives which would be close by.

 

The colours used by Coachman seem fine by my eye.

[28XX]

Walsall S&T department certainly had its own painting gang in 1976 and beyond. Because of regional boundary changes they did the former WR line as far south at Hartlebury. Similarly, Tyseley had also had their painters who travelled as far south as Stratford and Aynho Jcn.

[gwrrob]

A couple of photos taken today at Henley in Arden shewing faded building colours well.

 

 

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I found out when going through documents in the national archive that there seems to be contracts given to outside firms to paint GWR stations though the years rather than having it done in house. Something I have not seen in print before, I will see if I can find the links again.