Mk1 1957 Prototypes

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Everyone,

Following on from building the Southern Pride Sleeping Cars, here are the SP kits for the two contrasting Doncaster First Opens. Same plastic chassis and underframe, but these come with pre-coloured printed sides. I'm no longer a fan of the pre-printed format, they tend to have a rather bland finish and these kits have been sitting at the back of the cupboard for years, for that very reason. SP have released four other 1957 types in etched brass, but as far as i know, these two coaches have only been made as printed versions.

As can be seen, i have built them up as per the instructions, although i have again changed the gangways. Having added door detail and scored the door lines, the plan now is to mask off the windows and paint them both blue-grey. It could be risky . . . . .

Cheers, Brian.

 

[robertcwp]

Some prototype information: both of these vehicles ran on the WR in the later years and both gained blue/grey livery (as did the other two 1957 prototype open firsts). 3084 was withdrawn in 1971 but 3083 lasted a bit longer. A colour photo of W3083 in blue/grey appeared in Model Rail 112 Christmas 2007, along with a colour photo of the Cravens first 3082 also in blue/grey. I believe 3083 is preserved and is or was painted in mock teak livery as on Thompson coaches in LNER days. The remaining open first was W3081, built by BRCW, seen here in 1971.

[Mallard60022]

Hi Everyone,

Following on from building the Southern Pride Sleeping Cars, here are the SP kits for the two contrasting Doncaster First Opens. Same plastic chassis and underframe, but these come with pre-coloured printed sides. I'm no longer a fan of the pre-printed format, they tend to have a rather bland finish and these kits have been sitting at the back of the cupboard for years, for that very reason. SP have released four other 1957 types in etched brass, but as far as i know, these two coaches have only been made as printed versions.

As can be seen, i have built them up as per the instructions, although i have again changed the gangways. Having added door detail and scored the door lines, the plan now is to mask off the windows and paint them both blue-grey. It could be risky . . . . .

Cheers, Brian.

 

They look really good.

36E

 

[eastwestdivide]

3083 is described as having "reclining, rotating seats" on this site: http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=1218

 

Presumably you could move them according to direction of travel (or desirability of the passenger opposite). Would that be the reason for the greenhouse windows - to ensure people had a view out?

 

Anyone care to elaborate?

[Adam]

3083 is described as having "reclining, rotating seats" on this site: http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=1218

 

Presumably you could move them according to direction of travel (or desirability of the passenger opposite). Would that be the reason for the greenhouse windows - to ensure people had a view out?

 

Anyone care to elaborate?

 

I've travelled in that coach on the 'Valley and (from what I can recall) the seats don't rotate through 360 degrees but probably about 90 so you get a better view from the window or easier access to the aisle. That would suggest that your theory behind the windows is correct. Since this might well have been 15 years ago, DO NOT take this as gospel!

 

Adam

[eastwestdivide]

I've travelled in that coach on the 'Valley and (from what I can recall) the seats don't rotate through 360 degrees but probably about 90 so you get a better view from the window or easier access to the aisle. That would suggest that your theory behind the windows is correct. Since this might well have been 15 years ago, DO NOT take this as gospel!

 

Adam

Thanks. So was it 1+1 seating, or 2+1 like a normal 1st class? Can't imagine a 2-seat bench rotating and leaving enough space. Or did the coach have only a small number of seats?

[Adam]

Thanks. So was it 1+1 seating, or 2+1 like a normal 1st class? Can't imagine a 2-seat bench rotating and leaving enough space. Or did the coach have only a small number of seats?

 

Presumably 1 + 1 - I cannot, in all honesty, remember.

 

Adam

[giz]

There are photos and drawings in Keith Parkin's Mk1 book.

 

The seating was 2 + 1 as in a normal open first but there were no tables and they could be rotated through 180 degrees to face in either direction (except those at the partitions which were fixed). In the photo they are arranged aircraft style but it looks like they could also be set up face to face. The small windows lined up with each seating row.

 

There were 36 seats in total.

 

Edit: Re-written to make clearer the seating arrangement

[hmrspaul]

Photos of W3083 on the SVR but in original late BR condition, sorry doesnt help with seating. Have you tried BRCoachingStock@yahoogroups.com they know masses about Mark 1s.

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmark1/h3131aefa#h3131aefa

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmark1/h3131aefa#h399f8444

 

Regards

 

Paul Bartlett

Edited September 23, 2011 by hmrspaul

[Brian Kirby]

Apologies, i should have tagged the two photos clearly, although plenty of people seem to know which is which. The upper pic is E (later W)3083, with the multitude of windows and the one everyone's talking about. The lower pic is E (and also later W)3084, which is slightly less recognisable, having six seating bays with tables, bigger loos and quite distinctive luggage racks opposite. (The models don't carry numbers yet, since i plan to paint them blue/grey).

 

There were 14 of the "1957 Prototypes", from 5 different builders, although 2 coaches were rebuilds from existing stock (source - Parkin). They were commissioned as what we would now call "concept" coaches, looking for new ideas to incorporate into later standard builds. Most lasted until the early 70s, most, but not all, were repainted blue-grey.

Just recently, a colour picture of the Doncaster FK E13222 in blue-grey has been found in the new book "BR Diesels in the 60s and 70s" by Colin Maggs (Haynes). It was similar in appearance to 3084, but with compartments and the toilets and doors reversed.

 

Many thanks to Robert C for adding the prototype info and to Paul B for the links to his photo collection. Eagle-eyed RMwebbers will notice that the models have the wrong tumblehome, but i can't change that.

Cheers, Brian.

[chrisf]

This would be an exceedingly good basis for a flush glazed coach. Think about it: the thickness of the steel in which the windows sit must scale down to about the thickness of a coat of paint!

 

Chris

[Brian Kirby]

Yes, printed sides do give a very flush effect, although in the case of Mk1s, they have the continuously curved side profile as modelled, but the glazing should be straight vertical panes, not curved as here. If anything, i'd say the printed sides were rather too flush, although the effect is improved if your model qualifies for external window frames.

As i mention above, these two 1957 types were different again, they had a different profile/tumblehome, more like a DMU or Mk2 coach. From the waistline up, the body and glass should be straight, so the models are wrong on two counts. I'll cheat by reprofiling the ends. Neither 3083 nor 3084 had external window frames added.

Cheers, Brian.

[Brian Kirby]

As i resurrect this old thread, i hang my head in shame, this project has been in limbo for a year!

 

Just to re-cap, these are two Southern Pride printed side kits in maroon, which i intend to mask and repaint blue-grey. Here are the two vehicles with the windows covered in rubber solution and the livery applied to the sides. The full livery had to be finished and varnished before the rubber masks were removed.

 

Cheers, Brian.

[Brian Kirby]

The next stage is to carefully remove the rubber masks and tidy up the edges. The rubber covered the whole of each window, so the grey window bars had to be applied with a bow pen afterwards. Here's W3083 in the new livery with the cobbled up interior lying before it. The red interior walls are the legacy of the back of the printed maroon livery. BK

[ianwales]

Hi all

 

I've just bought the SP kit for the Cravens FO E3082, anyone got tips ot pitfalls for this kit I should be aware of before I start?

 

Ian

[exet1095]

Amazing job on the printed sides Brian. Could you tell us more about the masking of the windows please?

 

Thanks,

 

Paul

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Paul,

The rubber mask is Humbrol Maskol carefully applied to the clear window recess, having previously added door detail for relief. I masked the windows as a square and restored the window bar colour later, i decided it was too fiddly trying to mask around the bars. You also have to remember to mask off the inside of the clear sides with tape or newspaper (or screw the roof on), to avoid paint spray or mist spoiling the inside.

 

The SP Craven kits are different animals, being a plastic shell, but with etched brass sides. I've done the first-class 3082, also in blue-grey as W3082, i'll dig out some pics. It would be nice to do W3081 one day, but alas there is no kit and the different windows will be tricky.

 

In the next two pics, you may notice that i have modified W3083's interior, having realised the middle partitions had glass uppers. Notice the unconventional seating layout, as many will know, this coach had experimental rotating seating (except on end seats), so i have tried to reflect this by turning a few around. This coach had a teak interior trim ( typical Doncaster ), the printed red on the side walls is near enough, especially when the roof is fitted, things get a bit dark.

 

The other pics show the completed coach, it must hold the British record for the number of first-class stickers, 24 in total ! Another oddity is the half-height curtains, i painted these on the inside. I will show it's sister coach W3084 later.

 

Cheers, Brian.

[mark54]

Hi all

 

I've just bought the SP kit for the Cravens FO E3082, anyone got tips ot pitfalls for this kit I should be aware of before I start?

 

Ian

Yes, the sides of this and the SP Cravens SO E4638 are etched with a fold line along the bottom of the side, where the side continues over and covers the solebar. In truth the sides should have not have an angle (like the XP64 coaches do), but should be curved continuously. Brian has modelled his SP version correctly in this respect.

[Brian Kirby]

Here are both sides of the Craven Open First 3082. The real vehicle was fitted with venetian blinds, so i decided to model one side with the blinds up, the other with the blinds down. From memory, i formed the bottom sharp curve by forming it over some brass rod. Putting the separate vinyl window frames on was good fun !

 

Cheers, Brian.

[Brian Kirby]

Here's the other ex-maroon printed coach, this is 3084, now blue/grey on Western Region circa 1970. Again built at Doncaster and also an Open First, it didn't last long in this livery. The toilets are at each end, with luggage racks opposite, i have represented the luggage window bars with black tape on the inside, although i haven't yet worked out a neat and tidy way of modelling the shelves. Like it's sister 3083, it has the strange half-height curtains, i've also tried to represent the striped fabric on the seats.

 

Cheers, Brian.

[trainset1]

I am in the process of building two of the Doncaster Mk 1 prototypes, 3083 & 3084 from Southern Pride kits, unlike Brian's, mine will be left in Maroon. Can anybody tell me what colour the curtains and upholstery was when the coaches were maroon.

 

Thanks.

 

Steve.

[Roger Sunderland]

I am in the process of building two of the Doncaster Mk 1 prototypes, 3083 & 3084 from Southern Pride kits, unlike Brian's, mine will be left in Maroon. Can anybody tell me what colour the curtains and upholstery was when the coaches were maroon.

 

Thanks.

 

Steve.

 

As far as I can recall Steve the first class curtains were an orange colour. Seats in 2nd class were maroon in the main with a gold/yellow maquette pattern on them, blue with similar in first. Some pics in Philip Parkins Mk1 book.

[hmrspaul]

As far as I can recall Steve the first class curtains were an orange colour. Seats in 2nd class were maroon in the main with a gold/yellow maquette pattern on them, blue with similar in first. Some pics in Philip Parkins Mk1 book.

Later in the life of 3083 there is no sign of orange curtains. appear to be blue. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brmark1/e399f8444 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brmark1/e3131aefa

 

Paul

 

Although July 1973 I wonder if the curtains had already been removed by the conservationists?

Edited September 19, 2015 by hmrspaul

[mike hughes]

If it helps this is 3083 interior at the Severn valley 2 years ago

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/milesperhour1974/9741062961/in/album-72157635516270390/

 

Michael

[mark54]

3083 & 3084 both appear when new in maroon livery in the Timereel DVD London's Railways in the 1960s, supposedly in the Hook Continental. As the camera pans along the platform both coaches are seen in entirety. 3083 has blue seats and curtains. 3084 has charcoal and grey stripe seats and pale grey curtains