Comet versus Hornby Hawksworth Coaches

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Everyone,

I've built a fair few Comet Hawksworth kits in my time, they are good kits from a great range, but the Hawkies are some of the trickier types to build and can take ages ! The awkward part is making a convincing join between the cast end overlays (over brass square ends), the cast domes and the aluminium main roof section. At the same time you have to make sure everything is nice and square, and the three sections of roof have to be blended in until invisible or near-invisible. Until three weeks ago these kits were the best way to achieve a decent Hawksworth in 4mm - then along came the Hornby version.

Now we have a decent coach on a plate for 30 quid or less, no more hard work. However, as soon as these were released, most of us hated the curtains. These put me right off and i thought i'd stick to my Comets. At first it was thought that the curtains were separate and stuck-on, but then fellow RMwebber John Isherwood revealed that they were painted-on and could be removed using Rubbing Alcohol ( or Isopropyl Alcohol to give it it's posh name). I used Methylated Spirit to remove mine (i'll always be a meths man !), it came off just as quickly, just a few minutes per window. The only trouble with Meths is the pong, for safety always do with good ventilation, the fumes are a bit dodgy if inhaled. Here are the first couple i've done, the last photo shows a Comet next to a Hornby.

Cheers, Brian.

 

[Penrhos1920]

A great improvement. That's a massive difference in colour between the Hornby and Comet versions. Which do you think is correct?

 

In the other thread you mentioned gangways. Have you used the Masokits gangway?

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Penrhos,

I think both maroons are o.k., we wouldn't expect them all to be indentical. However, the Hornby maroon is a bit on the drab side, i wish Hornby would spray a coat of whatever varnish over their lined locos and coaches. Their lining tends to be shiny and the paintwork flat finish. A coat of matt, satin or gloss varnish would blend things in nicely. The Comet is representing clean ex-works maroon, it would darken over the years in real service. Things look a bit bright since i had a spotlight beaming down on them.

Yes, i've got more pics to come, showing the changed couplings and gangways.

Cheers, Brian.

[Brian Kirby]

As promised, here are some pics showing the replacement gangways and new couplings. I've just used the old-fashioned folded paper/card gangways, they are quick and easy to fit, bish-bash-bosh job done. They are cheap,tough and very reliable, there's nothing to paint and no paint to wear off. The Masokits connectors look great, but they take so long to make up. Another way of doing it would be to make blank end plates with foam rubber behind, to plug into the Hornby gangway moulding, like i use on my BR Mk1s. I did represent the gangway hangers on my Comets, although perhaps they should be more prominent like on the Hornby.

I've also changed the couplings to Bachmann magnetic and remounted them much further back. To do this i had to trim both the new coupling and the NEM box, losing the clip-fit in the process, they are now glued in. Another problem with the Hornby coupling is the quite long hook, which introduces a lot of slop, the Bachmann has much shorter hooks.

The first pic is Hornby SK + Hornby BCK coupled. The second is Hornby coupled to Comet BCK, the last two are Hornby BCK coupled to Comet CK. I would like to mount the couplings on the Comets a bit further back, but the trouble is the Comet buffers are not sprung, i'll do more testing. Note how plain the Comet roof is, compared to the riveted Hornby.

Cheers, Brian.

 

[Captain Kernow]

Brian, I think those gangways look great - is there a guide on 'where to fold' somewhere, please, or are they the MJT ones, which I think feature folded black paper somewhere? Thanks.

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks CK,

I didn't make the gangways, i've been cannibalising them from Southern Pride Mk1 kits, where i haven't used them on the latter. I'm guessing, but i reckon they were probably supplied to SP by Modeller's Mecca. All i did was re-shape them from square to round top. I suppose the folding is fairly straight-forward, the clever bit must be getting the retaining cotton the same length.

I believe you can still buy them in either shape, Larry the coach should be able to answer that one, in fact i think he had his own design commissioned and made.

Cheers, Brian.

[gwrrob]

Brian, I think those gangways look great - is there a guide on 'where to fold' somewhere, please, or are they the MJT ones, which I think feature folded black paper somewhere? Thanks.

 

I agree they look excellent Brian.Modellers Mecca still stock their range.I suppose they will add the Hawksworth type to the range although modding other ones will work just as well.As you proved.

[Garry D100]

I suppose they will add the Hawksworth type to the range......

Seems they are quick off the ball, already do.

http://www.modellers...connaction.html

[Mallard60022]

I think Geoff at Comet will concede that these Hawksworths from Hornby are beautiful. Comet will, I expect, still have Diagrams that Hornby won't produce, however sometimes these things happen and maybe there could be some 'bargain basement' Hawksworth sides in the offing from Comet?.

Nice Comet build by the way Brian. Lovely finish and superb gangways.

36E

[Brian Kirby]

Even though i already have several Comet Hawksworths, i'm still happy to buy the new RTR offering, well it satisfies the craving anyway. If you can't beat them, join them. In fact i've still got another couple of these kits to build.

As most people will know, a complete rake of just Hawkies was quite a rare sight on the WR, although for a few years The Bristolian and the Cornish Riviera Express mostly consisted of them, but the catering car would always be of a different design. What is more typical is a mixed up train with the various Collett types, in fact most of the Hawkies are stretched versions of the Collett Sunshine series, which have a similar appearance.

My Sunshine coaches also use Comet sides and since i've used the same paint on all of them, a mixed rake blends in nicely. Sorry this photo is slightly out of focus, but a "soft focus" will hide any faults. Sunshine stock to the left and behind the Comet Hawk.SK.

Incidentally, this SK i numbered as a Diagram C82, the Hornby SK is numbered as a C.84, no person or book has yet told me what the difference was. It may have been different interiors, any ideas Larry ?

Cheers, Brian.

[60B]

Neat models there. No idea why they raised a new diagram. One of lifes puzzles Brian.

 

Definetly a mystery. Checked the broadsides in the J.H. Russel book and they appear completly identical. I doubt that they would create a whole new diagram for a trivial interior difference.

[Brian Kirby]

Apart from the C82/C84 SK mystery, there were also two diagrams for the Hawksworth Brake Thirds (D131+D133), the CK Compos (E163+E165)and the full brakes (K45+K46). There was only one diagram each for the Corridor Firsts and the Brake Compos. Since it affects the Full Brakes, that would suggest it's not the interiors as you say. Another possibility is the different weights of successive batches.

Cheers, Brian.

[BernardTPM]

There is at least a visible difference between D131 & D133 Brake Thirds: the former has no sliding vent windows on the corridor side, the latter has one, 3rd window from the left. Could the other diagram differences indicate differences like flourescent lighting or aluminium framing? There were a number of 'experimentals' like that in the Hawkesworth stock.

Sound idea to keep the Comets together, Brian.

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Bernie,

It's all a bit baffling and confusing. Yes, some early ones lacked the extra sliding vents on the corridor side, but as far as i know, they were all soon modified. Some early builds also have a different sliding window vent, specifically the outside vane positions, not very obvious. As you say, there were numerous internal variations and experiments,some had fluorescent lighting, some had various wood interiors, some had plastic Formica interiors, although some of these ideas seem to straddle the associated diagrams, so no clear indication.

Regarding vehicle weights, there could be three or four different weight totals for just two similar diagrams, so again not a clear distinction. Regarding C82 and C84, two C82s survive on the SVR, plus there's the Dyno Car, which is ex-C82, unfortunately all C84 have been scrapped !

I had a theory that with the K45/K46 BGs, perhaps one diagram had internal cages and the other didn't, maybe this is why some of them had plain crimson or maroon ?

Cheers, Brian.

[Brian Kirby]

Here are a couple of other BR liveries on Comet Hawksworth Full Brakes. Plain crimson was concurrent with the blood aand custard, as was plain maroon (to the right) with the lined maroon. I've a feeling the different livery signified a different interior (i.e. with or without cages, like on BR Mk1s), but i could be wrong. The plain liveries appear to have been in the minority. I never got around to doing a blue one.

Cheers, Brian.

 

[cctransuk]

I fancy doing a complete respray in camine red. Did someone say the glazing is easily removable? I posted this on the Hawksworth thread but got no responses.

 

Larry,

 

Yep - just the usual caution and a Swann Morton D-shaped blade slid along between the bodyside and the glazing did it for me.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[dasatcopthorne]

Grerat work on those coaches.

 

To make your own corridor connectors visit

 

http://davidas.fotopic.net/

 

You can download the instructions.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

Dave Smith

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Dave,

The gangways link will be handy when my stash runs out and i have to start making them.

Looking back at my last two less than perfect photos, the shade on the crimson coaches look different side by side. It's probably an illusion created by the cream panel, making the whole thing look brighter. Same goes for the two in maroon, the lined one looks brighter, it must be a trick of the eye. They were all done at the same time using the same respective paints, even the varnish was the same. Perhaps it's the lighting ? Maybe it's just me and i should have gone to Specsavers !

Cheers, Brian.

[craigwelsh]

I was under the impression only a couple of each type got the florescent lighting as a trial and not enough to fill an entire diagram.

 

Must admit I prefer the look of the plain Comet roof to the Hawksworth as even close up the rivets and panelling is not as visible as Hornby has made it. Probably one of those things that would have been better to leave out really.

[Brian Kirby]

Phew, well it's not just me then !

Here's another livery that i'm sure will be reproduced in due course. There was a regular Hawksworth SK coupled ahead of an express (CRE ?)circa 1967/8, but only west of Plymouth and something to do with tea trolleys i believe.

Cheers, Brian.

 

[Jeff]

There is at least a visible difference between D131 & D133 Brake Thirds: the former has no sliding vent windows on the corridor side, the latter has one, 3rd window from the left. Could the other diagram differences indicate differences like flourescent lighting or aluminium framing? There were a number of 'experimentals' like that in the Hawkesworth stock.

Sound idea to keep the Comets together, Brian.

 

Give that man a coconut!

 

I remember helping my late colleague Steve to draw up the artwork for these. Our researches indicated to us that where two diagrams had been issued for the same type of vehicle the only visible difference we could see was that the earlier diagram in each case had fixed windows with no sliding vents whereas the later diagram had lots of sliding vents on the corridor side. This also applied to a few of the last diagrams of Sunshine Stock types built immediately before the Hawksworths. As has been noted they were soon modified to add the sliding vents anyway, so unless your model is dated to a particular day in between times it is of little account.

 

So we asked ourselves, is it easier to add glazing bars to a plain window if you want the later coach diagram or remove them from a vented window as supplied if you want the earlier diagram....

 

Regards

 

Jeff

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks for that Jeff,

The windows may be the answer, although i think it's a rather cosmetic detail. As far as i know all the affected coaches had their windows altered, but no change was made to their diagram number. I doubt whether the operating department needed to know which were "hot" and "cold" Hawksworths ! Also, it doesn't explain the difference between the two types of full brake (K45/46).

The early builds were doubtless used only for internal GW services, could the later diagrams be for cross-country use, perhaps with gangway adaptors for coupling to LNER and SR stock ?

Or perhaps the later diagrams had cheaper interiors (Formica) for secondary services, they did appear on branch lines very early on.

 

Anyway, now everyone's buying these lovely Hornby Hawksworths, they'll be needing some of the many GWR Restaurant Cars from Comet. Here's the H.27 W9572W, one of the 70' beasts, marshalled between two Hornbys.

Cheers, Brian.

 

[Alfster]

Hello,

With regards to Comet vs. Hornby how do the roof profiles match up from the end view?

Had always been tempted to buy a Comet Hawksworth coach but from pictures of the real thing the roof profile from the end on a Hawksworth coach would appear to be of a flatter arc or is that the perception on the eye where the coach roof also arcs away to the ends as well.

Rightly or wrongly was led to believe the standard aluminium roof supplied by Comet is more typical of a Mark 1.

 

Secondly can I ask when building Comet kits do you prime and paint the inside of the etched coach sides, and if so at what stage of the build process and how?

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Alfster,

The Comet Hawksworth kits come with cast whitemetal roof domes, which by nature, are soft and malleable. A degree of reshaping to fit is required, so the final shape is totally up to the builder and as you say, should be flatter over the gangways. I've also heard that the Comet roof section is based on Mk1 profile, which seems to suit most, although perhaps not all coach types.

I only spray primer on to the outside of the bodyshells, to make sure the paint doesn't fall off ! Any primer or colour on the inside is just over-spray. All i bother with is the basic seat and curtain colour. Alfster, do you put lights in your coaches ?

Cheers, Brian.

[iak]

This is another thread which is captivating.

And its great another master coach-builder is sharing his nous... B)

All I now is that I have some Hornby Hawksworths in need of gentle fettling